dbHunterNY

it's actually very true when i think about how i lived and hunted in WNY versus here in eastern NY where i grew up and am now. spots had the same characteristics and both produced bucks. "spots" i had in WNY seemed to produce bigger bucks closer to maturity (6.5) year to year more consistently than out this way. Out this way bigger (older) ones seem to revolve around access (working to get permission on private urban/suburban ground) or getting back in away from people. one public land spot in 8G was awesome. what happened on private land that boarded it helped the situation and i made a private donation to gain access to the public spot that'd be otherwise not feasible to get to from the normal trail heads/parking areas.

yea i agree with you. more reason why i'm saying it's really hard to take the DEC data and trending that Phade is posting as factual when applied to areas at the WMU level or maybe even region. i'm sure they vary a bit. in Phade's defense i do think we are decreasing yearling buck harvest. at the rate claimed, i'm not so sure and like others said really hard to truely find out.

that's what i'm saying. however, to be statistically sound they don't have to collect many in a given area. to be accurate the smaller area the more samples or bucks they have to age. so I don't think they'd have as great of an idea for a WMU versus a region or say buck management zone.

NY DEC big game staff go around to meat cutters, DEC check stations, and other places to gather information outside hunters reporting. they guess without pulling jaw for some and some they collect jaws to age bucks. very very limited number though. I have one of the tear away harvest data slips from the pad they bring with them to do their rounds. I asked for it multiple times until Hurst the big game leader finally passed it around at a meeting. I can post a photo up of it here if someone wants. Nothing really secretive. they also keep track of age versus antler points. art kirsch the biologist out in western NY has compiled the info for new co-ops starting out that way to effectively implement antler restrictions to protect yearlings. I know of one anyway that chose to go with 4 points to a side in Springville. I don't really trust the data DEC puts out as truly applicable for yearling harvest being slightly over half. I think the dacks and western NY is much lower for yearling harvest and out here in eastern NY it's much higher.

no.... sports have an off season.

why is it everyone posting on here against antler restrictions makes a comment they don't shoot yearling bucks? is everyone on the same page that this only protects a portion of the yearling bucks and barely anything older right? for the love of freedom of choice will somebody just come out and say your against antler restrictions and you shoot any legal buck. lol

that's what i do if i use my propane side.

if you know of deer being left in the woods dead for that reason you've got bigger issues than any regulation or law that's being passed.

DEC isn't quick to roll either. They're just as political and stuck in the mud with what they can and can't do. As I said in other posts legislation like this should have a date at which it dies to allow for reassessment. We both know deer management should be something that evolves over time to address the current situation. Despite it was irresponsible to have AR's where they are now indefinitely, they haven't seemed to ruin the deer hunting. Per a report DEC actually did do in 2011, "A majority of hunters in the pilot AR units prefer that the program continue". Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I can't believe you're still comparing this to the SAFE Act. lol I do think this AR bill should have an expiration date after several years. The way the current AR are just walked away from is just irresponsible, despite the general hunting population where they are seem to be happy to keep them. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Despite talking about buck restrictions is like talking about abortion to some I don't think it'd go down like that. Assuming you're talking to DEC you'd just get laughed at brining up one buck rule. I've literally seen it at a private meeting. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Sure boss. Just don't hate the messenger. This isn't my pet project. Face to face has nothing to do with it. Just saying something more is needed than a survey and crying. Senators don't care either way. their just greasing squeaky wheels with their ass covered like NYslowhand said. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

my Char-Griller Duo wasn't bad but time consuming. i was basically doing two grills though not just one. problem is i put it together inside on a rainy day then wasn't sure i was going to get it out the door.

honestly i got the brand name replacements and they seemed to breakdown and rip still. They've been around $35 i think. Last one though i got at Walmart just a generic 65 or 70" to fit my grill was around $25 and seems to be holding up a lot longer. Grill stays out all winter and throughout the year it gets windy at my place.

This basically has your interests in mind it's protecting the smaller yearlings you said you pass anyway. In reality it'll have more bucks growing to your harvest target based on meat. The survey sample size statistically is so small they probably didn't ask you but the results are still legit. It isn't feasible to design seasons around someone that wants to hunt only 2 days out of our long seasons and be successful. Their choice to limit their own success so much. Not on anyone else. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I've got strong suspicions of where this came from. The no buck thing was much less a factor I think ompared to other stuff because it was recent. Plans for any possible AR implementation were in place well before then. It starts probably way back to when they wrote the last deer management plan. DEC had right in there possible implementation of AR's. They wouldn't put something in print if they didn't have a plan and their ass covered. This legislation obviously isn't the doing of DEC though. Just someone else picking up where they left off. This bills sponsor is the environmental committee chair. You really think he's going to take ownership of something like this coming from Joe nobody that has an agenda? Senator Omara is a smart man. I've talked to him face to face in private. Bet what you will though on this being all half ass. Dont worry I won't take your money. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Then you had the answer to your question...Now answer this... Why would they take 2 such units as 8M and 8X..I know these areas and omit them from AR's while circling them with units in AR's If it came from what I think it did from DEC, then I can't answer that. Reason being a lot went into it. All stuff we've discussed here is the past surveys, buck management zones, failed management attempts, etc collectively a model and then a decision was made. Whether it's a poor decision for any respective unit is another thing. Some stuff must have carried more weight than others to make that determination. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

site seems lagged and i lost my response. hunter interests good, bad, or indifferent, often trump science with deer management here in NY. in the excluded zones there's more push back against antler restrictions for some reason than in other areas. look at what happened when DEC implemented no buck harvest the first 2 weeks in those "overpopulated" areas. they got roasted for it and went back to the way it was. seems whomever had a hand in this legislation learned from what happened in those areas and they got left out.

they go hand in hand much of the time, but age structure is more important than ratio from a biological stand point. if you're more toward a "perfect" ration if there is such a thing, it'd be exactly the opposite. it'd create more competition and get bucks on their feet more. high doe to buck ratios lead to what you said with lack of movement and more time spent in their safe place. why would a buck leave when there's doe available very close by with little competition for them. a train of bucks on a doe get that doe moving and the bucks follow.

i wasn't eluding to the same area producing mature bucks year after year. macro-level things as you call them can trickle down to effect this. the more mature a buck is the less of him are around. i was more getting at micro-level things that lessen your odds of hunting bucks of that same maturity multiple years in a row. an example, a good antler growing year previous, that indirectly leads to higher numbers of the next younger age class bucks being taken. someone else might shoot those top bucks well before the seasons out or maybe before you log significant hours hunt. other hunters encroaching on another's "honey hole". lots of other reasons, but the odds of taking a mature buck year after year in the same spot are against you.

DEC calls it their Structured Decision Making model. it includes soil data, antler point harvest data, all those hunter surveys that were done, and some other things. at least this seems to be consistent with that. i have nothing to do with this and actually didn't know about this legislation until i saw it here.

more yearling bucks living and a better age structure would help biologically though. any biologist would say that. it's just at some subjective point the effort isn't worth the results. also the restrictions vary from 3 -4 points on a side based off what i'd believe is antler point harvest data collected by DEC and related hunter harvest tendencies. looks like there might be science in this after all.

it came from DEC. haha seriously. all the hunter input surveys, buck management zones, etc all developed it. DEC planned to roll it out. Politics within DEC squashed it and now politics is bringing it back.

by far i think that public ridicule would drive untruthful hunters to not play that card. this goes into effect and everyone's vested following the law. someone claims they've had a few "first deer" word will spread quick as they're cheating other local hunters out of opportunity. i'm speaking for experience managing a co-op with antler restrictions and first time hunters being exempt. rules or in this case law isn't perfectly enforced at first but works enough and better over time to serve the purpose.

so anyone wonder how the restrictions where picked for certain units? i doubt this came from picking them out of a hat.