Death From Above

I think the discussion in this thread is based on the impact that humans (hunters) can have on the deer herd. If you don’t think that humans can have an effect on wildlife, then you need to reconsider that opinion. Simply stating that mother nature cures all is not accurate. Do a Google search for endangered or extinct species…did we, or can we impact them? How about invasive species? Typically, we can be to blame for that as well. Humans have an impact on mother nature, whether you want to hear it or not. You impact it every time you pull the trigger in the woods. The debate is just how much does your hammer pull effect the basic ecology that you speak of.

I agree completely. But more 2.5s will lead to more 3.5s, more 4.5, etc....I would hope. That's why it seems when I hunt in Kansas the young bucks act like they aren't as willing to chase the does around and instead they run from the sight of older bucks. It as if they look for the scraps that fall from the table instead...looking for the lucky situation. That might be ideal, but we are a long ways from that I would think. I think there are a lot of does in NY compared to the sheer number of bucks. Out young deer need to breed to get the job done.

I think the ladies run from any deer if they are not ready. I don't think the younger bucks are adept at telling when she is ready to be bred or not, and I would assume some older bucks realize that they are wasting their time. Even if the does run from the younger bucks who they for some reason don't see as suitable breeders, they need to be bred at some time. If you are correct and the 2.5 do most of the breeding then that would be even more reason to let the 1.5s live another year to 2.5 to help out in that area, as once again it keeps the rut in sync and on time. If the does fend off all of those 1.5 suitors then once again we are dealing with later breeding for a lot of those does that the 2.5 or older didn't get to. Then we get into late bred does and late dropped fawns which is not a great and optimal situation.

If my concern was only growing bigger racks, then I agree with you, there are not guarantees. I would think that we should be more interested in seeing more bucks overall to lessen stress on the herd. AR would accomplish this. I am not saying that it will guarantee better genetics or larger antlers, and I realize that drives a lot of the discussion here. I am saying it protects more young bucks from being shots and by sheer numbers it provides more for the next year which can be better for the herd. Truth be told, shortened seasons and limiting the number of buck tags would probably do more for this issue than AR would. Those are the reasons that the other states mentioned in earlier posts have an older buck herd than we do while not having ARs (aside from the fact that they have a different attitude about shooting young bucks to start with in most cases).

Wanted to address some thing that has been asked a few times today, and also discredited on several occasions as well. Reasons that AR (or simply an older structured deer herd when talking about bucks) would make for a healthier deer herd: Letting the majority of year old bucks live through the first hunting season would potentially double the number of bucks the following season. I would assume that it is largely recognized that this group is typically the easiest deer in the woods to kill. Yes, I realize that more older bucks would die to fill buck tags if they could not be used on younger deer. But over a short period, there would be a lot more bucks alive to start a hunting season because the large majority got a pass their first year. Whatever ratio you would prefer to use for the above theory such as 1/3, ¼, I don’t care, I am using the double figure simply for discussion sake below. Most likely all of the antlered bucks will breed. If there are twice as many bucks, each but will possibly breed half as many does. If young 1.5 year old bucks make up the majority of our current herd, which age do you think does most of the breeding. They do. Which bucks seem to start the searching and chasing the earliest? In my area it is this same group. Which group seems to be the last to give up? In my area it is once again these younger bucks. They work the hardest, and likely are the least prepared for the rigors of the rut. They do not have as much body fat saved up and aren’t as big as the larger bucks to start. When the season ends, it can be tough on all bucks to survive a winter after going through what they just did. However, this group has not conserved as much energy, stored away as much fat for fuel, and likely put on more miles searching (started earlier, ended late). If this is the majority of the bucks in our herd, it doesn’t start us off well for the following season. If we set ourselves up to have more bucks to start with (such as letting the young ones go for a year) then we have a lot more bucks to start the next year. Again, each buck does not breed as many and work as hard, because there are more around to do the work necessary. Additionally, the does are bred in a more timely fashion. There would likely be less does that are not bred in the first go round, and need to be bred in that later December “2nd” rut. This means our bucks don’t have to continue with the rutting behavior throughout a second period. In addition, and maybe more importantly, the later the does are bred the later they have the fawns. The later the fawns are bred the smaller they are when winter hits. The fawns are working to increase body size and fat storage before bad weather hits. The later they are born the harder this is to do. Also, fawns and young deer do not digest some of the cedar, twigs and less palatable browse that many of our deer need to eat to make it through tough winters. They starve easier due to this fact, and because they are not as adept at finding and working for harder to find food deep under the snow. Having more bucks would provide a higher majority of our does being bred in a timely and more advantageous fashion, which equals less smaller fawns struggling with winter. As these late born fawns that I am describing are likely both our future does and bucks, this even further affects the number of bucks we have overall. I know that there are other reasons, but these would be the most obvious to our area in NY.

Manic, My argument is not that AR needs to be implemented, and again I will concede my reasoning is likely not enough to validate ARs being passed. I cannot provide a reason good enough to convince anyone who is strongly in favor of choice to instead advocate implementing AR for the healthy aspects it would provide the herd. I have no reason to move out of the state, I am just not that upset about the matter. I simply prefer to save some hunting time to go out of state to enjoy a completely different hunting experience in the whitetail woods. I’d argue it’s a better experience, but I still enjoy hunting at home in NY as well. If you prefer to hunt NY then travel elsewhere, that is fine as well. Not going to suggest you stay in the state because you prefer hunting in NY the way it is. I have no idea why everything I type continues to generate more details concerning herd #s. Herd health based on population is a different discussion all together. I was only advocating a healthier herd based on a more natural age structure as it pertains to male deer. I do not disagree with what you wrote. Just don’t think I need to move out of state.

I don’t quite know what to say. This will be the third, maybe fourth time that I have explained to you that my mention of your comment regarding the pipe dream was in reference to what someone typed after your post regarding herd management. Yet you bring it up again. I have no idea how many times I would have to repeat the same thing to you before it sinks in, but I have officially given up trying. I can’t quote numbers either, but I THINK you are saying that NY hunters shoot year old bucks at the same rate (%) as PA hunters. I will have to look into that, because it seems hard to believe for certain. I can only use the eye test however, and wonder how that is possible. If I go to a butcher in PA I’d say that yearling bucks are far from the norm. There are certainly some small basket racks in there, but they aren’t the majority of what I might see. Drive the road and look at buck poles in PA and once again the majority are 2-year old or older. Don’t see as many bucks hanging in NY, but the majority I do see aren’t older than 2. Go to a butcher in NY and I’d say you will see more 1.5 bucks than any other age for sure. 8’s and 10’s are much fewer and far between in a NY shop. I can’t see how a state that places the majority of year old bucks off limits to most of the hunters (PA) is going to produce the same ratio of young bucks killed to a state that doesn’t. I find it hard to believe, but I have not looked into it. If you are correct regarding NY seeing a good increase of older bucks harvest becoming a higher percentage then I say great. I hope it keeps trending that way. However, if you agree that there is a positive impact achieved because of this trend then I say why not make sure it happens by putting in AR. I have no faith that “educating” hunters will work as well in the state as mandating would. You ask why the rush or need to do this is if there isn’t a major issue with the herd now? I say I don’t see the rush. I can’t say its vital, and I’m not arguing that it has to happen. I am just saying I’d like to see it happen for the good of the herd. I will say once again that I cannot produce a reason to put in AR to compete with the concern that you and others have regarding the fact that your choice would be taken away. I get it, I understand it, and my reasons ARE NOT AS GOOD AS YOURS if any sort of vote was taken on the issue. I won’t argue that people want choice. That said, I will argue that there is merit to AR as to how it effects the herd, and I see it as a good thing. IF it was implemented I would not see it as the end of NY hunting, an immediate and devastating rise in population, a devastating loss of license sales, or a huge number of mistake kills littering the woods. I did use PA as example for those concerns.

I assumed this forum provided us the ability to debate our thoughts on ideas such as this. I can respect your right to have an opinion, but disagree on what you base it on, can’t I? If you don’t believe that I can possess a different opinion but yet understand yours and respect your right to promote it, then so be it. I already had agreed with your conclusion earlier that genetics is not part of this discussion. I referenced the “pipe dream” comment because it was tied into general herd management later by someone else. Thought I had made that clear on both accounts. I don’t think that there is any way that NY will put AR in place, and I can accept that our deer management and hunting will continue on the way it is. It is what it is. I do worry that fear of regulating what one can shoot or not will trump some other positive aspects that AR can provide and be overlooked. I understand that will be the likely key to all of this. But I don’t have to be an “elitist hunter” to wish that AR would be put in place here in NY as it has been suggested in this thread. My intent from the beginning of jumping in here was only to suggest that: A. There are reasons some might support AR other than the big buck trophy hunter. B. Show that from what I have seen in PA that if AR was to be implemented in NY all is not lost for those who are concerned about choice, hunter decline, or mistake kills lying everywhere. Apparently in the process I may have accomplished: C. Show disrespect in some way to other's opinions. That was not my intent, but again, if you read it that way, so be it I guess.

Nope, I stated above that I do NOT feel AR has a strong effect on GENETICS whatsoever. There are arguments that it does, but I can't say I agree with much of them. If I somehow missed you referring to genetics instead of the general herd characteristics, I apologize. I thought it was dismissing a more general effect on the population.

Oh I agree for sure. But we can do a better job of managing what we have so that Mother Nature has to do less of the managing you speak of.

Not sure that any one said that ARs would completely solve all the herd problems, as overall numbers are a bigger part of the health issue. AR would have a very positive influence on the health of our bucks and also of our fawns. If you need to hear the reasoning behind that I can elaborate. To say that it is “non-sense” is just shallow and an un-informed observation. Whether or not I am in support of AR or not, I can’t ignore that there is a benefit caused by having them on our deer herd. To deny it is silly. I understand that it may not be important to you as choosing what deer you want to be able to harvest, but it would be nice for the deer. I’m not trying to offend the original poster who said it, or the person who applauded the statement after, but to say that “managing a wild deer herd is a pipedream” is simply stupid. Why do you think we have regulations from the DEC? I’m not saying they do it well by any means. Do you think that other states are incapable of managing their deer herd? Do you think that deer in other states who have a much “healthier herd” are self-regulating? Are they smarter across state lines? Are NY deer missing that self-regulating gene? Simply put, there are tons of states who regulate their deer herd better than NY. In fact, does NY do it better than any other state that has whitetails? I bet you would find it hard to find someone with a biologist’s background outside of this state to say NY does it better than some other state. We can disagree, sure I get that. But to discount simple science and reasoning and say it’s a pipedream is not logical, IMO. Glad that most other states didn’t get that memo. For the record, I am not an overall “science guy.” I am one of those crazy creation – not evolution people, and I don’t buy into all the Global Warning stuff. Unrelated I know, but I don’t want to come across as “science is everything”. I just believe in this case there are benefits to following the science.

Cannot argue with any of those points, and likely agree with all of what you said. Especially the part about every deer being a trophy. However, it is my hope that if for some unforeseeable reason ARs are in fact implemented in NYS, that it won’t drive this argument about the trophy hunter being the root evil as the sole cause of the decision. I also understand what you mean when you don’t want your hunting privileges dictated by non-hunting diplomats. But if, just possibly, there is some genuine and conservation minded reasoning behind such regulations, I hope that you might consider it was done due to the state trying to better manage the deer herd and not just noisy trophy hunters pushing an agenda.

I won’t try to hold a conversation about the population numbers in your area, but I wish I had similar complaints. I’d say that our numbers here in 6G are lower over the past couple years compared to what they were several years back. I hope they rebound, but its hard to do that in an area that sports an 8 week long gun season and the possibility of tough winters. However, using high population numbers as a reason to ignore another potential problem in the herd isn’t helpful either. It is not addressing the problem of overharvesting young bucks. Did I understand you correctly when you suggested that AR caused the over population in 4S? You said that there were hardly any deer and just because they implemented AR the numbers went off the chart? So you must have like a 5 buck to 1 doe ratio? Once again, this back and forth between the two of us has become about the overall herd numbers and not AR. Saying that ARs cannot be considered due to high overall herd numbers is little confusing. You are compounding the problem that you seem to be most concerned about. Let more bucks live, they survive longer and even the herd out, meanwhile you shoot more does to fill the empty space in your freezer where the bucks were stored previously. This way the herd gets healthier in overall numbers (your larger concern which is solved as less does = less fawns), and meanwhile it improves the buck to doe ratio while allowing for a more natural aged herd (my hope). We both win. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that the herd is not what you are concerned about. You just want to shoot whatever you want to regardless of the potential impact that has on the deer herd. That is fine, I understand that, I get it, you have made your point that your most important aspect of deer management is the management that you get to perform on your own terms. I said in my first post that I respect other’s opinions, and that includes yours.

Not attempting to be critical here, but can I just ask why you feel that the addition of antler restrictions, either by the DEC or some sort of Legislative Regulation, would be addressing what a hunter might feel is a trophy or not? Sure, AR could restrict a hunter from shooting a deer they might feel is a trophy, but it isn’t defining the animal as worthy to be considered as a trophy or not. I am not a big turkey hunter, and I have no idea if you are. But if the DEC came out and said that we needed to increase the number of males in the turkey population for the health of our turkeys in this state, would it drive this much controversy? If they limited the take to one bird each spring, and said the beard had to be six inches or longer, do you think it would create the same type of argument about not being able to harvest “trophy toms”? It would likely increase the number of gobblers out there, which it was designed to do, and not be put in to shame hunters for shooting jakes. Would it generate a phobia against people who prefer not to shoot jakes and wait for a mature gobbler? Is this topic driven too much on this site by people harassing others for shooting small bucks? When it comes down to it, if the Department of Environmental Conservation decided that it is within their role to protect a portion of the deer population for the good of the state’s herd, is that a bad thing if there is legitimate merit behind it? Or is it more important that they let hunters shoot whatever they like so that they can claim it as a trophy?

You are correct, I would love to see our state make an attempt to balance the deer herd’s age structure, especially when it concerns bucks. However, I will make no attempt to suggest that AR along would do anything to balance the overall number of deer versus deer habitat. AR would very likely create a spike in deer numbers the following year, unless the state also made an attempt to balance the overall population with a higher take of does. I am assuming that Pennsylvania’s introduction of AR that coincided with the dreaded HR (herd reduction) was an attempt to do this very thing…take more does out to provide room for all the extra bucks that potentially live another year. I know that HR was in no way implemented for this reason in PA, but I would assume it was a hoped for benefit to the AR addition. In the areas of NY that I hunt (6G and 7J) I would guess that the buck to doe ratio could really use some help, and AR would address that if the DEC made an attempt to address the doe harvest as well. I imagine that the majority of the southern tier sees an abnormally low buck to doe ratio as well, but I can’t verify it. I agree with you though that while it might spike the deer numbers initially, it would level back out, especially in a state where hunters are able to harvest two bucks a season. However, by your suggestion that your harvest of a four point helps the overall health of the herd due to the potential of high numbers, then I could suggest the same about someone who jacks them with a spotlight at night. If you'd like to rationalize those two on the same level so be it, but you are talking about HR goals, not AR goals. The post you wrote above speaks to deer numbers, not age dispersal. Those are two different topics. I am talking about utilizing Antler Restrictions as a means to lesson stress on the deer herd, winterkill on bucks, and decrease the number of fawns born later than the optimal time for survival till their first birthday. AR has the potential to help these issues, along with other benefits. Hunting in a more balanced woods is another perk, and it’s a completely different experience IMO in states with more balanced herds when compared to NY. My favorite part of hunting isn’t the kill, personally. I like watching wildlife and being in their proximity, while trying to match wits, if you will, to harvest a targeted animal. Aside from just a healthier herd, more bucks and more experienced bucks just bring a different game to the table. IMO.

While some might argue with this point, I won't. I do believe there are plenty of other reasons that ARs (if followed)would certainly improve the health of a deer herd. But genetics is not one of those reasons.

So big bucks exist if I get out of my stand? Is that what I have been doing wrong all these years? I don’t remember ever stating that I have not had the good fortune to harvest nice, or mature bucks in NY. If I post a few pictures of several bucks hanging on my wall that might even score higher than the one on your wall does that mean that my preferred method to hunt (from a tree stand) is better than yours? Or would it just serve to disprove that AR would help NY produce a healthier deer herd, all because I have shot some well scoring antlered bucks? I never said that deer like the one you posted didn’t exist. Whether you would like to agree or not I am stating that NY could stand to have more of them out there like that though. NOT just so more can be killed by the evil tree stand bow hunters, but so more are around to contribute to a healthier and more natural herd. Won’t elaborate on any of that though, because I am fairly certain that you would dismiss it anyways as non-sense. After all, it fits into that science crap you referenced to above. We are all hunters, and maybe we aren’t all as proficient as you are at the art. But to say that the only reason that some hunters want AR, or that states legislate AR just because bow hunters want to train the deer to walk by their stands so that they can be lazy is ridiculous - IMO. But that is your opinion, you have made that clear. Funny that so many rifle hunters in PA have argued that the bow hunters are to blame for killing too many of the bigger bucks prior to gun season opening. Guess the deer in that state don’t hide in places that only gun hunters who get off their butts and out of their stands can find them. OR...your theory may be correct and because PA now has AR the bucks have been properly trained to walk by bow hunters on stand...and AR screwed the gun hunters. Won’t even attempt to address your concern about why you never hear about 3-year old does from AR proponents. If you can’t figure out why that is, then I certainly can’t help you. Nice buck by the way!

Try contacting your county Soil and Water Department, as they may rent that type of equipment to individuals looking to improve the habitat on county land. I can't say if they rent tractors, but we rented a seed drill from Jefferson County and managed to plant about 10 acres easily in a day. It was our first time using it, and it worked beautifully. I would think that they might have had other equipment such as a tiller as well, but we have one of those. The best part of using their equipment is two fold: it belongs to the government so its always high end and in great condition & they are in the business of promoting the exact type of planting you are doing, so the rate was unbeatable. They even delivered the drill to us.

And I think your post is an example of exactly why we need ARs in NY. You think that a supporter of antler restrictions supports the policy just so that YOU can’t shoot year old bucks, and so that HE/SHE can shoot more big bucks. I say that you are missing the big picture. The DEC already regulates what we can harvest as hunters, and what we cannot. If you aren’t sure what I mean, then please look at your tags closely and you will notice some are for antlered deer and some are for antlerless. They don’t regulate the ratio of sex harvest based on what they think we want to shoot as hunters, but rather it is an attempt to maintain a healthy herd. We need bucks and does to make fawns, right? Did you ever think that through ARs they might be attempting to control what portion of the buck harvest is yearling bucks to keep a more natural structured deer herd? Maybe AR in the state’s eyes is not about keeping you from shooting all those little bucks you so badly want to be able to kill, but maybe it is about trying to help restore the age structure in the deer herd to a more natural age range. Do you think it is possible that we as NY hunters can influence the natural proportion of younger vs. mature bucks that survive year to year? I think we do. For the record, I hate when the government intrudes more and more in our lives in an attempt to help us live our lives in a way they feel might be better. But maybe, just maybe, this scenario isn’t an attempt to help you live your hunting life, but help some deer live longer lives instead…therefor giving us a more natural age structure in our deer herd. When I read posts like yours, and then I read about the DEC trying to “educate” NY hunters about how letting young bucks go will help the deer herd as well as potentially improving our hunting, I realize that asking hunters in this state to understand this and then implement it will likely never work. IF the DEC really believes that our herd can be benefited by protecting young bucks, then they shouldn’t ask, they should act. So many other states show through harvest regulations (in many different ways) that they feel this is important. Unfortunately, sometimes we evaluate the success of measures such as these simply by looking whether we are able to shoot bigger bucks. I said in a post above, I respect opposing views. However, its hard to hear all this me, me, me as the only reason why we shouldn’t consider implementing a policy that might improve the deer, deer, deer. Lastly, can’t help but also comment on your “get off your butt and go find them comment” concerning shooting bigger bucks. We both know that if that was remotely true that you would be shooting big bucks each year, and you’d have no reason to shoot those little ones. Then we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, would we?

A lot of good suggestions in this thread. Especially agree with all the attention to scouting and trail cameras. I think that TIME has a lot to do with it. If a hunter wants to count on more than just luck then I think TIME can be a key. Most of my friends say I'm the luckiest hunter they know, so I choose luck every time if possible, but I think that my "luck" might have a little more to do with TIME. Lots of time scouting. Lots of time with cameras scouting for you. Lots of time hunting. I probably spend more time hunting than most due to owning my own business, so I have the ability to put lots of time in on stand. The more time that I hunt, the more I observe, the more I can adjust. That said, too much TIME spent in one area can be very bad when hunting older bucks. In fact I think that one of the biggest keys is to resist - no matter how hard it is - hunting some of your best stands too much, or even at all before the time is right. I agree that the first time in a stand is likely the best opportunity to kill a deer. So why so many people hunt their best stands before the bucks let their guard down during the rut is sometimes confusing to me. Try keeping one of your best stands fresh and don't hunt it until the rut hits, then hunt it with the best wind. This strategy almost always seems to provide me with my best hunts of the season. I know that not everyone can put lots of time in like I mentioned above, but I think it is certainly a large reason that some people seem to kill good bucks every year. If you can't increase the time you can put in on stand, then I think that the time put in scouting becomes even more important. I agree that you have the opportunity to hunt very good bucks right where you are, and I know you suggested in your first post that you didn't need to consider hunting elsewhere. I understand that you are looking for suggestions regarding the time you put in on stand hunting near your house. But, living in PA you unfortunately have to give up deer hunting for two weeks, which happen right during some of the best rut hunting of the season. Have you ever taken advantage of that and head somewhere else to hunt? I LOVE driving to the Midwest to hunt where there are quite a few more mature bucks to hunt than where I spend most of my time on stand. I had a hard time believing that mature bucks could act like they do on hunting shows - until I went to Kansas and watched bucks walk around in broad daylight and come to rattling and calls more than not. I am not suggesting that you need to go elsewhere, but it certainly wouldn't hurt your chances to "break the seal" on a good mature buck. Especially if you can't hunt at home anyways during the closed season in PA. I'd also add that I have never been on a guided hunt, ever, and its never cost me a lot of money like I thought it would to hunt in the midwest. There are great opportunities out there to hunt good bucks at a reasonable out of pocket cost. Lots of state land or even private land opportunities. Just an idea. You seem like you put a lot of thought into your hunting, and you have enough tools for sure to go and use them elsewhere to possibly provide an opportunity on a nice buck in another state to go along with your big PA buck.

Buckman4c, Your expansion on what I wrote above are great, and I would agree with all of it. The HR really did a doozy to the northern part of the state IMO, where it seems so many hunters migrate for the opening few days. There were a couple years where we felt lucky to see a deer or two in a day. Before that we might see 20-30, but you had to think hard about shooting a one horn spike (it was legal at that point), because if you passed him that might be the only buck you saw. My how things have changed in PA. Now I go expecting to see quite a few deer if the weather is decent and hunters get up and move around during the opening few days of the rifle season. Probably saw 35-40 on opening day this past year, but the best part is not knowing what number and type of bucks you might see. I have no problem passing up two-year olds in PA now, and quite often that patience pays off. This year I shot a nice three year old 8 point, and stood next to a 12 year old as he shot his first buck (128" eight point). Few years back I lucked out and harvested a 150" thirteen point. Sure, its a lot of luck that goes into all those kills, but I can tell you that it is very unlikely that I would have had nearly the same opportunities back before AR. There I go talking about big antlers and AR...after just saying above there is more to it than antler size. Now that I live in NY I no longer bow hunt in PA like I use to. The bow hunting is where I saw the big differences due to AR. What a change in the southern part of the state in just a couple years (York County). I grew up in the southern tier of NY, then really got into archery when I lived in PA. I'm jealous of the long bow seasons in both of those areas, but it appears that you realize how good you have it now. Its just hard to expect many bucks to live long enough to grow antlers up here where I hunt, when there is an 8 week gun season vs. a 2 week bow season. Whenever my wife asks why I need to keep going to the Midwest to chase whitetails I just show here the multiple magazine articles that rank NY dead last in the country for deer hunting. I love to hunt, always will, even in NY, but I believe that we manage much of this state worse for whitetails than anywhere else. Guess the bright spot is that it allows me to convince my wife that I need to travel for hunting big bucks. Its working so far. Maybe I don't want AR in NY after all...

While it may not be overly relevant, I thought I'd provide some observations from living in another state that went to AR several years back. I haven’t read through much of this thread, nor have I read much on this site in the past about this topic. No science here, just an observation. Maybe someone might find it interesting, while someone else might see it as a biased viewpoint. It may have nothing to do with the course of this thread. But first I should admit that I am biased. I love ARs after seeing what a difference it made first hand, but I wanted to provide my observations of how others viewed it during and after its implementation. Secondly, I have a hard time believing that this state would actually put AR in place, even by some sort of legislative action outside the DEC. Lastly, I respect others view on this topic, even if I disagree. I lived in Pennsylvania for more than 15 years, the first (5) or so where without ARs, and the rest were after they were added into the state game laws. Pennsylvanians pretty much ran Gary Alt out of the state for his part in implementing ARs, and maybe even more for HR (herd reduction). There were some VERY upset people when it was implemented. It seemed to me that it was 50/50, if not more in favor of not adding the ARs. As a recent college grad at that point I really had no position on the matter. I have since moved back to NY (11 years now), but still go to PA every year to hunt with friends at "deer camp" for the opener. It is funny to me that I almost never hear anyone complain about them any longer when I am down there. Even the guys who were so dead set against it - and some will argue that not much has changed - those hunters seem to be content now waiting for a "legal buck". So, I am assuming that this either means that they have simply accepted it and moved on, or many adversaries of the policy have not endured the adverse effects they were concerned about. After watching PA go through it first hand, and all the concern about hunters dropping out and dead deer "mistakes" lying everywhere, it is JUST MY OPINION that Pennsylvania hunting is still going strong. I think that many would admit that their success rate is about the same, and that they do see more bucks. They just can't shoot a lot of the bucks they see. While many may not care about the antler size of the bucks they shoot, they are still shooting bucks. One friend of mine says the only benefit he sees is that he likes the few extra pounds of meat that goes in the freezer when he shoots a potentially older buck now. I am certain that if I tried I could find PA hunters still unhappy about the fact they cannot legally shoot spikes or forks as adult hunters. But I'd be interested in seeing a legitimate poll in Pennsylvania to see what % would like to go back to the days without them. I find it interesting that the majority of hunters that I know were against them previously, would prefer to keep them in place now. I also realize that there is an advantage in growing an older class structure in a state that allows just one buck per hunter, but that is a different topic I guess. Because I don't have an interest in shooting bucks that aren't (3) years or older, that makes me a "trophy" hunter in some people's eyes and many don't like that. Add the fact that I prefer to bow hunt through the gun season here in northern NY I cannot complain that I don't shoot as many bucks in NY as I wish I would. Having hunted in states like Ohio, Illinois and Kansas it isn’t hard to see quite a difference in the quality of hunting when comparing those states to NY. Most people might equate that “quality” I mention to just the opportunity to shoot deer with bigger antlers. While that is probably the reason that I started going out of state to hunt, it isn’t what I like most about hunting those states. In NY I watch year-old bucks chase does all the time, in fact that is the age class I see chasing more than any others. In Kansas, for instance, it seems like that age class doesn’t dare chase does like they do here. They know better. The quality of the hunting I am referring to is more in the experience and excitement of watching older bucks searching for does, coming to calls, and fighting over breeding rights. I think it can be difficult to see the same behavior and reactions here in many parts of NY, with the exception of year-old bucks. I think that body size and age brings attitude and excitement to the deer hunting woods. There is a big difference (again in my opinion) in watching older deer navigate the rut, and I think it enhances the excitement while sitting on stand. From what I have seen, competition from older bucks makes the rutting action much intense, even just one state away in PA. I now have friends who go with me every year to hunt in PA, I don’t think I am alone in appreciating what AR has done for PA hunting opportunities if you enjoy seeing more bucks and more rutting behavior. If you see lots of older bucks on a regular basis where you hunt in NY then congrats, you have it much better than from what I have seen in much of this state. If all of my trail cameras are correct there simply aren’t a lot of older bucks in my neck of the woods, and competition over does isn’t difficult for them. I feel it plays a lot into the reason I just don’t see them as often as I’d wish. You can tell me I am not a good hunter, and that I am not using the correct weapon to maximize my success, I get it. But I believe from hunting in other places that more rack bucks = more bucks viewed and more competition to make them visible. Many hunters equate more deer seen with more exciting hunts. My experience, ALONG with what I have seen/heard as the opinion of others, is that antler restrictions will improve more of the hunting experience ASIDE from larger antlered bucks. To summarize... If AR are never put in place in NY, hunting will go on as it is, and many like myself will continue to make trips out of state to chase older deer and potentially witness a different rut intensity with what may be an older herd. IF AR is put in place in NY, it is my hope that those opposed will give it a chance and just might find things will turn out just as it was before, or maybe a bit more exciting due to more deer/bucks viewed per hunt. This hope/suggestion is once again based on what I have seen/heard from fellow hunters who lived through this very discussion in PA. Wow, that was a long post.

Thanks, and I hope you are correct. MY wife tells me I bought too many bows this winter. She is right. Had to update the post above, forgot to mention an important detail. It is a RIGHT HANDED bow.

Elite Energy 32 (2015), hardly used - which the strings will show. Ninja color (black), 29" draw length but mods are available to change DL. This is a 60 - 70# bow. Shoots great, bow is just over a year old. I am selling it because I purchased the same exact bow (a 2016 Energy 32) in a new Kuiu camo pattern. There are no noticeable chips or imperfections on this bow, it is in perfect condition. I am selling this bow bare, so the site and rest shown in any provided pictures are not included. I do have a whisker biscuit and multi pin site that I would put on the bow and throw in for free, but I plan on keeping the QAD rest and Spot Hogg site in the pictures to put on another bow. This bow sold (bare) for $959 new in 2015, I am asking $575. This price would include shipping TYD. Here are the bow specs: Axle-axle 31 3/4" +/- .125" Brace 7" +/- .125" String 54 3/8" Cable 37" Centershot 3/4" - 13/16" Mass Weight 4.3 lbs I have a small indoor shooting range I use during the winter, which also is utilized for a wood working shop. I didn't realize that there appears to be a some dust on the bow until I posted the pictures. I assure that the finish is very clean, with the exception of some dust. Sorry about that, should have run a quick cloth over the bow. PM with questions, or provide email address or other contact information if preferred.

When kinetic energy is held constant arrow diameter is the determining factor in arrow penetration (using the same broad head of course). The smaller diameter arrows certainly penetrate farther. Add to this the fact that they don't have as much wind drag due to profile, there are some advantages with the smaller diameter. That said there are advantages to the larger diameter arrows as well. If I understand correctly the arrow manufacturers typically increase the thickness of the walls when they design the smaller diameter arrows for two reasons. First to make them tougher (instead of weaker if produced with similar thickness as the larger arrows), and secondly to maintain the kinetic energy referenced to above. Even with smaller profile they would not match penetration if they didn't have added thickness and weight to keep the KE. I like the strength and toughness this provides as well.