TheHunter
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Posts posted by TheHunter
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And where is the data that supports this stat?
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I will be requesting DEC's back up studies for the wmu 3 AR regulation....but the science you talk about seems to always come either from an interested party, opinion presented as fact or misrepresented. The broad brush position of some on AR can not be the correct approach. The state is broken into wmu's for a good reason....the situations vary widely across the state.
Management of the herd for the betterment of the herd will never be a bad thing...I would support it whole heartidly. I have yet to see empirical data that explains how AR betters the health of the herd. And I mean full and comprehensive data...not a 2% opinion poll pushed off as 70% on favor.
We have a great deer population in NY...way better opportunities than 30 years ago when I started....I just need to see any justification to change something that, in my opinion has worked....is based in generations of tradition and takes individual freedom away
That would be great to see that info.
Here is the issue, who else is going to have the cash to study something other then an interested party? Can I, as joe hunter fund such a study? Nope. I respect the QDMA and their biologists. When people say that what they come up with based on their experience, knowledge, and expertise as hogwash and bullshit, thats where I have an issue. How can QDM be BAD!? I have food plots, I pass on younger deer. But to make the herd better for EVERY hunter a majority has to participate in some shape or form. I, as a AR and QDM supporter am not asking you to stop shooting bucks. Passing on < 1.5's to give them the chance to grow slightly older, breed, and survive is really in the grand scheme of things a small thing to ask. Every single hunter benefits from that.
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SteveB,
In 2000 there was a state high of 140,857 bucks taken. 2004 it was 88,733 bucks. It's slowly climbing back up with jumping numbers since then.
Here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/42246.html
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And yet the harvest is down aprox 300 bucks or 30%.
SteveB, thanks for that fun fact, don't forget to mention harvest is down ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE OF NY. Whoops, forgot to mention that one eh?
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Oh, I'm full of crap. LOL, your full of crap. I have first hand experience, family and friends that hunt in AR units that have first hand experience with the benefits of AR. I stated its great in MY AREA, and there are clearly other area's that need it and those that do not. Your assumptions are a joke.
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just a thought, some people are screaming "you antler guys" are "selfish" and only think of yourselves bit. yet in the same breathe are screaming, I want to be able to do what I want. Its about my hunt and my good times and my buddies. Yet if I want to keep doe numbers in check and pass on little bucks, I'm the one being selfish. I have the "agenda". If thats the case then I guess we shouldn't even have a season or bag limit. Lets jack em all year round from the truck window, so long as you have a buddy with you to enjoy the memories.
Excellent point punch. Whats odd is, where I hunt, an AR zone. Not only have the bucks been able to mature slightly, there are more harvestable bucks around now then before AR kicked in. So now your presented with a choice, ah should I shoot that nice 6, or nah, maybe I'll wait for those two nice beefy 8's that I saw on the trail cam to come in.
What great is, 75% of this Anti AR guys live in zones where harvesting a more mature buck is a possibility. They are speaking for MY AREA WHEN THEY ARE HOURS AWAY and have no idea what the hunting conditions are in the my area.
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Yup, it would benefit THEM and that's about the extent of it. All the benefitting the herd nonsense is nothing but a charade. Not being able to man up to the honest and simple facts that a blind man could see is what bothers me with all this stuff. You want to kill big bucks? Good. Just don't insult anyone's intelligence with phoney biology that clearly benefits trophy hunters more than it would benefit any deer herd.
The BS that spews out of your mouth is phenomenal. Stop insulting our intelligence and admit your a brown its down man. Regardless of what you think, there are a lot of hunters who practice QDM, want AR, and the AR zones will expand and NY state will eventually come up with a state wide deer management plan for area's that need it. Again, YOUR area might not need any assistance, while other area's do.
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Steve863, How is the person who is waiting for a decent buck in an area that doesnt really hold any decent bucks cause they were shot out for the most part at 1 1/2 going to get one. How is that fair to them?
Exactly, those same bucks will be there the following year for everyone to have an opportunity to harvest or pass on.
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And why exactaly are you answering for this punch guy?
Yes food plots are great.. but only for that year, what happens when you stop doing them? It is not a lasting conservation effort and does not change the overall landscape for very long.
For the same reason your attacking him...
Yes, food plots are great, and food plots, the ones I plant do not just "last a year". Perennial crops and grasses can last for years and years.
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A points based AR does not protect any certain age 100%, it only protects bucks with less points.
AR and conservation have nothing to do with each other, conservation is about more than the number of points a buck has when it is killed. I'll even take it a step further and say that QDM does very little in the way of conservation efforts, it deals with one specific animal not the whole environment.
AR's protect yearling bucks. FACT is that Antler Restrictions are accomplishing the objective of reducing the yearling buck harvest by 70%. Very good QDM stands for Quality Deer Management, hence the reason for supporting one animal. But the result of QDM ends up benifiting more then just deer. QDM is about herd management, habitat mangement, hunter management, and herd monitoring. By improving the habitat for example, by doing food plots, your not only improving sources for deer but also for everything else that feeds there. Turkey, yote, etc etc...
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Age structure never has been a problem with the deer herd. They multiply nicely no matter what the age structure is. The importance of age structure has little to do with anything other than it makes horn hunters think that they will have an easier time seeing and hopefully killing bigger bucks. Got news for you fellas, as far as the state is concerned, the age of the buck when it gets gunned down is of little importance to them. They need deer killed, and hunters kill them. The age of any individual deer that gets killed or remains alive means NOTHING in the scheme of things. If a hunter is happy killing a yearling buck, the more power to him. As others have said, many hunters hunt in areas where a hunter may see one buck an entire season. Why should he pass it up if he doesn't want to and would be happy with it?? Just to make YOU guys happy and let the deer live on so that YOU might have an opportunity to gun it down next when it might be carrying bigger horns?? You want to take this persons hunting rights away so that YOU guys can have better hunting for yourselves next year. That is pretty much all what passing the yearling buck will do. Not a good enough reason in my opinion.
Thats YOUR failed logic, opinion, and thinking.
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Don't mind SteveB, his agenda is clearly to discredit and dispute any AR/QDM facts and opinions known to man.
Some hunters make such a big deal about it. I really don't feel compelled to shoot a buck that is equivalent to a little boy. Guys that say "You can't eat the antlers" are completely ignorant. Why not try something thats best for the herd instead of whats best for you. Our NY bucks need age.
I agree, our herd does need age, more so in some area's then others.
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Just wanted to say I love the site, and am glad a NY area site came back. Thanks to all, even the members I argue with
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Sounds like a good idea to me.
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Scot, the thing is, even though a majority of us hunters wish to implement or practice AR that we don't have the right as majority to impose it on other hunters. Even though the world rules by majority. Its how we elect officials, presidents and put laws into effect. Its what makes the world turn. Some how rules are OK for everything else that effects our daily lives, even when its comes down to something as simple as fishing. There is a reason why you have to throw back the fish that doesn't meet the criteria. In AR area's as you know, there is a reason for not shooting the 1.5's. They get to live, reproduce and survive another year, and potentially grow and mature. How that is a bad thing is beyond me, as in the area I hunt and from what others that are in AR areas have expressed here they have not only seen bigger bucks they have seen more legal bucks to shoot. So the argument that it deters "first time" hunters from the sport seems like quite a week argument. And the expectation that a first time hunter to shoot a buck is ridiculous, I went over 4 years before harvesting my first buck as a hunter. 1/2 of my family lives and hunts in PA, some of these family members were against AR at first, but after a few years they realized that it not only more mature bucks, a great hunting experience, and a greater opportunity of harvesting a buck as well. I understand all ends of the arguments, I was also on that other side, until I saw the results. I respect everyones opinion, I am not bashing anyone, and I am only speaking from first hand experience and what I see. Let them go, let them grow.
Agreed, same goes for us.
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Larry,
Before quoting people you should read first. Your fellow ANTI-AR friend DOEWACKER is the one that called 1.5's and 2.5's scrub bucks, not I.
And no PA has found zero evidence of any gene pool degration. This is a quote directly from the document I linked to from the PGC.
Concerns over genetic impacts of selective harvest are common. Would selecting bucks based on the number of antler points they carried be enough to alter future antler development? Current research is clearly mounting evidence to the contrary.
About 1 in 4 litters will have fawns with different fathers.
Research has shown yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler points and size.
Percent of hunters harvesting a buck is similar to previous decades.
First, yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler development. Research indicates little relationship between a buck’s first set of antlers and those he carries at 4.5 years of age and older. So, using yearling antler points as a harvest criterion should not influence future antler development in the population as a yearling spike buck and a yearling 6-point can have similar sized antlers by age 4.5 years.
Second, most of Pennsylvania’s antlered males are harvested after the breeding season. About 75 percent of Pennsylvania’s antlered deer harvest occurs during the firearms season in late November and early December. The peak of breeding is mid-November. As a result, most antlered males harvested in Pennsylvania have already passed their genes onto future generations.
Third, a few mature males are not dominating breeding. In two different studies, yearling males successfully sired fawns in populations with high percentages of older males. In fact, most males, regardless of age, only sired one litter.
Fourth, does are regularly being bred by multiple bucks. Initially studied in captive deer, multiple paternity has been documented in every free-ranging white-tailed deer study in which researchers have looked. Populations with different male age structures in different states have seen litters with two or more offspring having different fathers at rates of 20-24 percent.
Finally, a buck’s mother contributes half of his genetic characteristics, but nobody can tell what a doe’s contribution to her son’s antlers will be. There is no way to visually evaluate the genetic antler potential of a doe. As a result, 50 percent of the genetic contribution to future antler development is randomly selected in Pennsylvania.
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Well doewhacker why are you so against having some public land for the AR hunters to hunt on. Scot is right 65% are for some sort of change.So why wouldn't the DEC want to keep the majority of paying hunters happy. It probably wouldn't even affect you because you probably hunt posted land.
Its not all about just shooting a bug buck for bragging rights. I enjoy being out in the woods year round and if I shot the firstbuck that walked by I would be home after the first week of the season.
When you go fishing and you catch a walleye that is 1 inch under the size limit are you bent ou of shape because you can't keep it. Fishing regulations are understood by so many and sportsman don't seem to be unhappy about having size limits for fish. I guess change is difficult for some to understand. Nothng stays the same just remember that doewhacker
Excellent point.
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Lol....pass....passs.pass...is not analytic research....show me prior...unbiased numbers. And post unbiased numbers and then you can take a stab at supporting your position.
LOL yourself, if you read that was a direct quote from the PGC in PA, based on years of AR.
.and don't give me your unsuoported 77% crap....on the point of whether I have a say over there.....even if I don't hunt it......I do...as long as they are appling it to state land I pay for....I still feel you guys are to willing to impose your preference on others
Its 77% of 3H based on a random survey the DEC performed.
You can have all the say you want, you have ZERO hunting experience in my WMU, and no idea what your talking about.
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Hunter...looking back at your lengthy post...I can't quote because I am on my phone....either it was you or an article you posted as yours...clearly you are talking about the herd health across the state...clearly...and based on the data I found that shows what a small sample your BIG 77% number represents...I put no faith in any of you assurtions. Basically...all the numbers I see in this thread mean nothing....the data is not available to make a true analysis....you know....keep talking about the veiw of hunters down there and their satisfaction level....if you believe this and your veiw is not based in selfish gratification....why don't you lobby to get a mandatory...full....survey done of all big game license holders in those areas....maybe then 2% won't be speaking for 14000
AR is in my area, the fact is it works fine for me and everyone I am in contact with personally that hunt in my AR zone and other AR Zones. Their satisfaction has increased, the maturity of their harvest have increased, and 1.5's are living to see the next year and beyond. I do not need any more proof, I see it. The fact that you don't beleive it works means nothing to me.
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Steve863, keep attacking us with your immature and ignorant statements. We are posting facts from the PA PGC , NY DEC, other sources with facts that have done biologic research, and our own experiences.
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Hunter satisfaction up? Biological reasons? Proof in PA? Absolutely every one of these points can be refuted. Did you read the recent PA game commission report where they said:
" An expanding research base supports the position that antler restrictions will have minimal impact on future antler development of Pennsylvania’s deer herd."
You guys must live in a dreamworld!
Antler Restriction Report Card
1. Increase buck survival PASS
2. Change breeding timing NO CHANGE
3. Avoid negative genetic impacts PASS
4. Maintain hunter success rates PASS
5. Increase number of adult bucks PASS
6. Increase age structure of buck harvest PASS
7. Maintain hunter support PASS
After 6 years, APRs are a success. They have increased buck survival and the buck age structure. They have maintained strong support from hunters. And Pennsylvania hunters are experiencing the same levels of success to which they are accustomed.
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You guys can try to spin it any way you like, but these AR's are NOT giving too many more hunters those 2.5 or older deer like you guys are trying to make everyone believe. In the meantime the guys who would be happy with any buck are getting the shaft, thanks to your hokus pokus theories. And in at least a couple of those AR regions they can hardly get a doe permit to boot!
Where do you hunt? Oh thats right, your speaking from zero first hand experiance. Doe permits were over exteneded in the years prior, as the DEC stated they over shot their goals and needed to reduce the DMP's to get back within targets.
Hunter Satisfaction increased... Yup
Majority of 1.5's protected from harvest... Yup
Biologic reason for AR... Yup
Proof in PA that AR works long term... Yup
Majority Support... Yup
Buck Harvest as burmjohn showed is clearly all over the place since 2003 statewide. There was a huge drop in 2003 to 2004 statewide. So the conclusion you came to is useless.
Nearly every single person here that is for protecting the 1.5's and pro AR has seen an improvement in their hunting experiance. Majority of you that are against it have zero hunting experiance in these AR zones. Thats shown clearly by those who posted in this thread here: http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,916.0.html and the absense of negativity shown there.
Regardless, AR's are not going away in our WMU, regardless of how much you spin it.
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WMU 3H is the largest unit in the current Antler Restriction program with 554 square miles. It also shares the majority of its borders with other antler restrictions units and states. This increases AR effectiveness.
Current buck harvest is within 10% of the buck take prior to implementation of antler restrictions three years ago.
Antler Restrictions are accomplishing the objective-Yearling buck harvest is down 70%, 2.5 year old buck harvest up 86% and 3.5 year old buck is up 167%.
After Antler Restrictions the harvest is comprised of only 18.6% yearlings. The majority of the harvest (54%) is 2.5 year old bucks, and 3.5 year old bucks comprise a full 25% of the harvest.
Within WMU 3H hunter support is 77% for continuing the antler restriction program. Hunter support for antler restrictions has increased more than 22% since the start of the program. After three years, opposition to continuation of the program has decreased from 26% to 14%.
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There is one other point you made that really frosts me. You say our outdated traditions are a detriment to the whole states herd. You took exception when I said you wanted to impose your views on others and commented it was just your area. The areas of the state I hunt...NZ and SZ have none of your claimed herd issues. 12+ mature bucks on an 80 acre parcel is no problem....you sound as though you are entitled to a big buck. Your attitude is one that is running out of control like wildfire in our society today....whether we are talking about big bucks....jobs...or food stamps....the sense of entitlement is nuts.
You mock the traditions so many hold dear....my advice to you nd others is get back to those traditions...the important ones. Perhaps you are new to this...or were never shown what is important about this sport...or maybe yiu just forgot...but try it. You will find it more fulfilling than any rack.....sorry...1 week with no cigarettes
Mocking tradition? Hardly. Our tradition is strong and healthly, 60+ years of hunitng in my family and nothing has changed from the fun we have at camp to the stories and harvesting of deer.
Entitlement is not my argument. I never said AR is the end all cure, however it works by allowing 1.5's to survive, and giving everyone an opportunity to harvest a more mature deer in addition to allowing the maturing of the herd.
Your argument is whats flawed, in YOUR area you say there are mature deer and a healthly structure. In my area there was not. I am not speaking for YOUR area. I'm going based on facts from our area's observations and harvesting.
Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?
in Deer Hunting
Posted
We would like to Live and let live (at least 2 years at a minimum), except the anti-AR guys like to kill and kill..
KIDDING!!!!