buckman4c

Thanks NFA

QUEST #2: Hello all! Just wanted to update on my new quest and let you follow along. My new Quest is to kill a mature buck with a bow. I began scouting a new piece of property and as you can see, it's worth the effort!! The lay of the land is similar to that in which I killed the buck this past season. A high wooded ridge bordered by agriculture valleys. This particular buck has been giving everyone the slip. Since we last talked about tactics and strategies, I have changed my approach to one of aggression. These older, highly pressured bucks seldom expose themselves and I've come to the conclusion that hunting near as possible to their beds in bow season will be my new approach. With that said, I've scouted this new area twice and recorded my findings in a phone app.. In brief, both side hills are steep with rolling terrain. Very small hollows cutting up the side hill with rises in terrain between. So far, I've found countless bedding areas on both the north and south slopes. But I have also found a "funnel" between boulders and gaps in the bedding, heavily traveled side hill trails that connect bedding areas and a few ascending and descending trails full of rubs. I also found a bench with very little bedding but a heavy trail running it's length. The bench is about half way up the mountain. At this point, I've established: (1) buck bed of the many I found which I can access and hunt without blowing off the mountain. The funnel and the bench as pre-rut/rut stand locations. I however haven't found a bedding location which made me believe it is the one used by this buck. I still have a considerable amount of area to cover. I'm scouting a one square mile area in which this buck was captured on camera. I've been watching "Dan Infalt" and "The Hunting Public" to educate myself on their approaches to buck bed hunting but not many of their hunts occur in large mountain terrain. I know you NY fellas have plenty of experience in big ridge country. Anyone willing to share their approach to hunting a buck bed or buck bedding areas? Look forward to continuing the "Quest" for mature bucks!!

Have this all messed up. Reply found in previous post.

Pretty good estimates for looking at a pic.. Aged at 4.5, grossed 132" (22" main beams). I'm happy regardless. Thanks.

WNYTRPR, Man what an awesome buck!! Do you have pics from previous years on this buck? Looking at the pics, in the second one, he appears to have a sway/dip in his back which is a good indicator of an older buck. Based on photo's I've seen of some older bucks, he could be 6.5 plus. If so, his antlers will probably start going downhill. But who really cares, exceptional buck!! Hope you kill this monarch!

Thanks for straightening me out gjs4. Don't believe I mentioned his age. What's your guess on age of the buck? Antler score isn't a reliable source for aging but what do you think his racked grossed?? I'll tell you I "guessed" mid-120's and I was wrong.

Depends how big the buck is. I've read stories where hunters killed massive bucks that crossed property lines and it was a huge hassle trying to legitimize the kill. Or, they lost the buck because of trespassing.

As a follow up, here are more of the details: My scouting last winter and previous notations put me on to this area. I had been going past it to hunt another area and noticed over the years very consistent larger buck sign. I scouted it some last winter and took note of where the sign was located. My bow season was interrupted frequently by reasons I need not explain so my outings were limited. However, I bow hunted close to where I eventually killed him because of the big buck sign that was popping up and in the same locations I had previously found. I then killed a doe in rifle two days prior to killing him several hundred yards away and while getting her out found fresh rubs and scrapes had been worked. When we did our still hunt, I had several factors working in my favor. #1. The deer had been harassed all week from gun pressure in the valleys. #2. Up to that point in the season, I had only come across (4) other hunters all season, so that particular area wasn't being hunted nearly as hard. and #3. We still hunted a north facing ridge with a light SE wind. Knowing deer prefer to safely lay high on a ridge with the wind at their back, especially having been pressured, I knew there would be deer on that side. I just didn't know what deer and exactly where they would be hiding out. There are a few small points, benches and thick patches of pine, hemlock and rhododendron which I know they bed. While working across the side hill, I could feel the light wind perfectly pushing my scent down the mountain. The wind stayed consistent and the majority of deer went above me and didn't know I was there. A half rack 3pt. and this buck showed up just after a large number of deer had cut up and on to the top of the mountain. The bucks stayed on the side hill at the military crest instead of following the group on to the top. Neither buck had any idea I was there. The legal 3pt. appeared first and I watched him for a good couple minutes before I heard the big buck coming in behind him. The friend who was still hunting toward me while I worked toward him would end up killing his first buck a couple days later 200 yards below where I killed mine when it broke out the side of a drive in the valley. I'm anxious to see if another mature buck moves into or is already using this particular area for next season.

Been a long time! I finally knocked down a mature buck here in my home State of Pa. Killed him the second Monday of rifle season. Friend and I still hunted toward one another along the "military crest" of a ridge. He bumped a bunch of deer and this beauty came along. Forty yard quartering to shot with the .270 dropped him in his tracks. Elated to say the least! A lot of luck involved but I did work hard to create some luck. Want to thank everyone for their input back when I started this topic. Sorry the photo came out sideways. I tried fixing it but had no luck.

If youth hunters are exempt from new AR rules, they could kill both those bucks.

Youth hunters should be exempt from AR. Although I support AR's, it doesn't hurt the objective whatsoever for the youth to harvest bucks by the current rules. In fact, it is suggested that harvests should involve all age classes of bucks to some degree. AR protects a majority of yearlings but not all, very few 2.5's and "almost" none of older age classes. They would contribute to the harvesting of younger age classes and of those older bucks which don't meet AR criteria. In their minds, if explained properly, will believe in their contribution toward managing the resource. The youth are the future of the sport and however you want to look at it, many are part of todays instant gratification society. A parent or mentor must work very hard to create a burning desire in todays youth to carry on the tradition of deer hunting. They are our future. Allowing them to harvest their "first" buck no matter the size, to learn the ways of the deer hunter etc. are very important at the early stages. Sure, some have that built in burning desire and would carry on with or without AR but many, maybe most, need a little extra push or incentive. Let them learn, let them harvest and by the time they must follow AR, they will be better prepared to meet the challenge and understand "why" if appropriately informed. Just my humble opinion on youth hunters and AR.

Some good "arguments" being made from both sides of the fence here. I will only add that based on scientific result thus far, AR and HR (herd reduction) were much needed in PA and that it has improved both the scientific result and hunter satisfaction. Although many hunters in PA will tell you HR wasn't needed to the degree it was carried out. Anyway, as I also said previously stated, I'm not sure AR is needed in New York. I said this based on your harvest statistics. Your harvest rate of 1.5 year old bucks is very close to 50% of the kill. Ours of last year was 41% but that has been our best year to date (since 2001 when AR began). The whole premise behind AR in Pa as being argued was to create a more balanced age structure and better sex ratio. Traditionally, with AR in place our buck kill in years past was 50% for both age classes (1.5) versus (2.5 plus). The biggest difference I see between NY and PA is prior to AR. Here in Pa our annual buck kill consisted of roughly 75% being 1.5 years old. On top of that, according to data, we were killing close to 80% of all available bucks. This had things extremely scewed toward more doe than buck. You apparently don't have the same problem. So, AR may not really be needed although I personally like them.

SCOUTING UPDATE: I'll "try" not to make this post too extensive. Good luck with that!! We received an inch of snow, Thursday into Friday ending about 5:00 pm. I hit the are I'm scouting at 9:30 Saturday morning (yesterday). The wind was NW 10-15, clear and sunny. I began by walking the military crest of the south facing ridge. There's a bench 3/4 the way up the ridge. I found (2) obvious bedding areas and two different trails leading on to the bench. Closer to the point that drops into a hollow I found another bedding location on the bench near the top. I also found (2) beds lower on the point. Working north along the slope of the hollow, I found another bedding area in and amongst some pines. Continuing North, I went to the north ridge and checked a high spot to the east of a saddle (the hollow feeds almost to the north ridge and creates a saddle). The high spot was another bedding location. I then walked west along the north ridge line through the saddle. The east edge of the saddle is thick with pine and rhododendron. A couple more beds found in this location. From there I continued west and dropped down to a bench. There was very limited fresh deer sign along the bench but I did find a rub line heading north and down toward the cuts. This would also be North of a high point along the north ridge. I then circled up on to the high area and found additional bedding. This high spot has a south facing slope above the rhododendron flat. This is the location the big buck rub line would indicate to be one of his bedding locations. As suspected, the "bridge" travel area I spoke of previously is nearly smack dab in the middle between as I count (6) bedding areas. My phone app. was especially helpful at showing the big rubs as being in a "line", how the bedding areas are distributed and concentrated deer sign of tracks, feeding etc.. The one thing that is going to be most challenging is once again the wind. At some point I will have to get up in a tree or two with prevailing winds to see what happens. I was hoping by getting in there at the time I did, I would also "feel" the thermals. I did on the south facing slope feel the calmness and lift. In other areas though it was unpredictable and couldn't tell. I imagine snow effects thermals as well?? When I was on the flat and neared the high spots along both side hills I could feel the wind switching. I actually got a lesson on this as I was slipping toward the north ridge. The wind was NW (in my face). But when I was about 80 yards from a high spot and saddle, I could feel the wind switching. I used my binos to check a "brown" spot and saw a doe standing on top of the high spot. She just stood there looking and looking, nose up. She knew something was amiss and kept searching until I finally walked toward her and she and another that was bedded behind trees bounded over the ridge. Despite finding all these beds and checking just about everyone of them I didn't find any sheds nor during my walk did I find any unusually large prints. I found suspected buck prints slightly larger than others with dew prints but they weren't obviously larger. One other thing I unfortunately did find was a game camera. I knew I wouldn't be alone in the area with it being public but at least I have an idea of a trail he focused on for last season. Probably the most important lesson I learned was how I should be able to access this area from multiple points and disturb the least number of deer. At least I think so anyway. Now I just need to find the time to climb a tree or two with a smoke bomb or milk weed especially in the "bridge" area to see how the wind and thermals react.

Another great post and thanks for the compliments.

Great input!! Answer to the first suggestion is I'm entering my fifth year of passing and eating tag soup. In the past, I did shoot immature bucks for more personal reasons like time available but even at that I would go a couple to a few years without. A good example would be killing one in 1996 and waiting until 2004 to kill the next. I couldn't resist in 2004 being the first day of rifle and I had just come back from killing my only mature buck in Virginia. First and only time I killed two buck in a year. The scouting suggestion is becoming a huge, huge deal for me. I've been pretty consistent in years past but the past three or so years I've really stepped up my late winter, early spring scouting. This year by far is my best effort. It's all a time management thing with other important obligations after hunting season ends if you know what I mean. This year will be by far my best effort. The weather has cooperated too which has been a huge help. Understanding the wind and thermals us what I see as biggest challenge. Plan on scooping up some milk weed. These deer are nut eaters and crop eaters. I'm trying my best to get permission for access from the ag side of the mountain. This would be hugely helpful. Essentially, I'm relegated to finding the active white oaks on the ridges, benches etc.. There are big bucks in this area as I posted previously. Every year hunters knock down 140" plus bucks and (3) in the past exceeded 170". This years scouting is helping greatly to pinpoint preferred doe bedding locations and I prefer hunting the pre-rut/rut stage. I hunt sparingly during the early season, preferring ideal conditions like a cold front etc.. My pervious post addresses overhunting one location. I'm not sold on this thought. I'm beginning to believe as I stated if you have good action and your not getting picked off, why move? Unpredictability of buck movements might pay off with staying where the action is happening. Thanks again.

Great information and I will/won't agree?? LOL! This is one of the things I picked up from watching Dan Infalts videos (again). But this time, I watched a hunt I hadn't seen previously. What I observed was a very aggressive yet calculated hunt. He started in "observation" stands, then kept adjusting his stand location until he stalked in and killed the bedded buck. He hunted for a particular buck for I forget how many days consecutive, think he missed one or two days. What I found intriguing was no matter how much pressure he put on these deer, they continued to use the area until he finally pulled it off. He actually got scented by the big buck during one of the hunts and yet the big fella hung around. He spooked other sizeable bucks and doe while pinning down exactly where the big fella was. Finally, there was at least one other hunter during the entire time frame also putting pressure on these deer. In summary, what I took from this example was if the doe are there so will be the big bucks. Even when he bumped the older bucks they hung around because the doe stayed. The doe didn't seem bothered by the pressure either. I'll also say, he didn't stay in any one spot in the area. He did use the same stands here and there but much of the time he tried different stands. Based on this approach one could assume he kept the deer guessing. One could argue either way that if he had selected one killer spot he could access undetected he could have continued hunting that spot. Maybe the deer wouldn't have changed their travel or eventually the buck would have come by the stand?? But he didn't wait for that to happen in this case. I on the other hand will hunt the same stand when it's hot so long as I'm not knowingly bumping deer or it suddenly cools off. Then I change spots or give it a few days rest. Now, I will make a counter argument despite his obvious success. I have studied long and hard the PSU deer study involving buck movement. They have quite a few bucks radio collared and they monitor their movements. They then post videos of these movements during various stages of the fall. Three major things stand out. #1. Early in the fall, their movements are concentrated in a core area with other movement in a home range. #2. As the fall progresses the movement expands, is all over the home range and sometimes outside #3. The movement is rather unpredictable except: They prefer bedding high on predominately south facing slopes especially during rifle season and secondly, most of them move more than once during daylight hours even during rifle season. This is important for hunters in general but more so for stand hunters. Why? Because if their movements are mostly unpredictable, stand hunting one location may not be a bad thing especially if your seeing other deer traveling through. Sooner or later that buck will cruise through the location, you just don't know exactly when. If they move more than once a day, being on stand as much as possible will only increase the opportunity. Knowing where they prefer to bed can put you in close proximity for when they do move. Obviously through scouting, you can break things down more precisely but I must say after reviewing countless hours of video, picking "one" killer spot is difficult at best based on their movements. For those of you who have found a "killer" spot, don't tell a soul, don't try a different spot etc. because finding one is a needle in a haystack. Suppose this is another reason tracking may just be the best tactical approach for unpredictability. I would suggest watching the PSU deer study videos. Search "PSU deer study" and look for buck or doe movement videos. Their way down the list now a days.

Thanks to all of you for the replies. Very informative! I'll get back to each you after this weekends scouting. In regards to the above post, I have hunted a few times out of state for deer (Virginia, New York, Maine and Mississippi). Done some Elk/Mule deer hunting in Colorado as well. I love going out of State and have future plans of doing so for whitetails. With the two week period after our bow season, I really enjoy going to bear camp in Potter County. So, I bear hunt Potter and on Sunday of our bear season, I take a ride up to New York and hunt a day of gun season for deer. Just learning NY but our guys saw deer on a blustery, snowy day, just no bucks. Considered it a good outing despite the weather and not really knowing the area well. I suppose I should have mentioned in the beginning that my "goal" is to kill a mature buck in my home state of PA. I was fortunate enough to kill a mature buck in Virginia when I hunted there for 3 whole days. (LOL- go figure) Now that was "luck"!! I like to believe my map reading skills killed that buck but it really was luck that two bucks chased a hot doe in front of my bro in-law then came up over the ridge to me. He shot one, I shot the other. LOL All of my hunting is public land here in Pa and with exception to Mississippi, DIY on public land out of state. I've been very fortunate in my hunting career but ONE thing eludes me like no other!! LOL

wolc, I'm from Pa and have been hunting here for 35 years. I have seen many changes along the way and it's my opinion the deer hunting here has made tremendous strides. To answer your question, crossbow inclusion has not caused negative effects to the herd. In fact, it's also my opinion if the weapon makes the kill cleaner then by all means we should be using the weapon. Some are not as proficient with a bow and some because of age or aliment can't use a bow. The crossbow allowed more hunter participation. Does that mean more deer are killed in bow season than previous? Of course it does, but it's not "overkill" by any means. Death From Above did a great job explaining his observations both his visual and those he heard from others. To further this observation I can tell you the following: When I began deer hunting in the 80's, it was nothing to see 25 plus deer a day but often times you didn't see a buck. Any buck, not even a spike. During the 90's I observed a slow decline in deer numbers where I hunted, Again, you could see 10-15 deer in a day but bucks were ghostly. When AR and HR (herd reduction) were introduced, it was total chaos. Hunters bought in to the idea and hammered the doe population where I hunted. Obviously, the deer numbers declined but in virtually one to two years, you could see (in my areas) a change in the dynamics of the herd. At that point in time, you would see on average a handful of deer in a day but there was a very good chance one or more of those deer was a buck. I started seeing fewer doe and more buck. Additionally, not only did I see more bucks but most were branch antlered and not spikes. As the years passed, things stabilized in the areas I hunted. You would see roughly the same number of deer each season and a good percentage of these were bucks. I believe current day deer hunting in Pa is fantastic compared to years gone by. The PA Game Commission has actually begun allowing the deer numbers to increase for most areas of the State. I'm anxious to see the result of increased deer numbers combined with AR. Although, I'm skeptical about allowing this trend to carry on too long. The initial reasoning for AR and HR in Pa was because of habitat concerns and lack of age structure for bucks in the herd. Overall, I'm one of the happy guys in Pa. AR is pretty well accepted but HR is another story. Hunters in low deer density areas of the State continue to believe we are still in herd reduction despite the fact that doe tags and season length for doe has been reduced statewide. The problem in those areas is poorer habitat than other areas of the State, predation to some extent and believe it or not fewer hunters which results in those fewer deer being moved less. One last point, despite the naysayers in Pa. The PGC or should I say their Biologist have done tons of exhaustive research since the days of Biologist Gary Alt. I find this research mind boggling and anyone with a bit of common sense would realize the work that's gone into this scientific approach to managing whitetail deer. They will admit, it's not all perfect but it's better than throwing darts at the board.

Good info. Larry. However, allow me to point out a couple things about my home State (Pa). #1. Foremost, In 2001 when AR was introduced, we had approx. 800,00 gun hunters. Previous to this point, our buck harvest consisted of 75-80% yearling bucks and upwards of 80% of ALL available bucks. Secondly, AR was 3 pts. to side (typical six point) for the vast majority of the state. Only a few Counties in the western part of the state had a (4) pt. rule. Current day AR is 3pt. one side for majority of counties and a (3) "UP" point rule for those western counties. A slight change but none the less more easily determined by hunters. Thirdly, Herd reduction was seriously needed in Pa. Our habitat qualities (winter habitat in particular) was being devastated with too many deer for a very long time. Winter severity in Pa is not like NY which over time results in lower overwinter kill but they depend on the same food sources (browse). Essentially we carried too many deer(doe) over from one year to the next and habitat suffered. AT NO POINT IN TIME was the management plan ever presented that killing more doe would result in more bucks. I'm not sure where you got that from? What was presented was, we need to reduce the overall population of our deer herd because they are devastating the habitat. And, we need better age structure in our deer herd for healthier breeding ecology by implementing AR to protect the "majority" of 1.5 year old bucks. Period. Many people have twisted this information to their agenda over the years. In the end, AR and HR were needed although many would argue the contrary. Our age structure was dismal prior to AR because yearlings were getting crucified every year. If you look at the stats now, yes, we reached "only" 59% of the buck harvest is 2.5 yrs. of age or older but that's compared to 20-25% prior to AR because there just weren't many out there. That's a huge improvement in age structure. Current day, we are actually in a herd stabilizing or herd increase mode for most of the State. They have reduced doe allocations almost state wide and reduced the number of days we can hunt doe in rifle season. We also have 300,000 fewer hunters which could result in yet more changes because of having fewer hunters to do the job. I anticipate a higher number of doe tags being issued and if our numbers continue to dwindle pulling back on AR some day OR allowing a second buck tag with AR in order to keep the herd from growing too much. In regards to "high grading", I would argue that killing 75-80% of yearlings every year is much more detrimental to a herd than targeting bucks that are 2.5 and older. We all know it's much easier killing 1.5 year old bucks than any older than that. AR is NOT a trophy plan by the standards set in Pa or would they be in NY. Allowing a majority of bucks to reach 2.5 years old doesn't mean you will have monster bucks. We have definitely seen improvements in our bucks from the perspective of body weight and antler but that's really only because of more reaching 2.5 years of age than before. I will say this: In regards to Ny, the dynamics are much different, as I said winter loss is much more significant in Ny. You have fewer hunters than Pa and as you have shown, the harvest rate is much more balanced by age group of the bucks than ours was many years ago. AR may not be beneficial to Ny like it was in Pa but maybe it would be. Only those who actually study the dynamics could really say what the probabilities are.

Appreciate the replies, support and ideas. Thanks I'll be out this weekend to scout the area again. Just an FYI, I use a phone app. to document sign etc.. Awesome tool for connecting the dots. (GEO-PAK Hunt) I think there's probably better ones out there but this is the one I'm using for now.

Thanks for the resource moog. I had watched a few of his videos in the past but I went through them again recently. I picked up on a few things. Probably most importantly for me would be a more aggressive yet calculating approach. I've done many of the things he reveals in the videos about hill country bucks but there were a few things I hadn't thought about. Most telling perhaps was placing a stand in which the wind is "almost" blowing toward the deer as it approaches. This makes sense but something I've tried to avoid. The other thing I really picked up on is he is calculated when it comes to "busting" deer out when trying to access certain stand locations and still being successful. This is a very aggressive approach I absolutely try avoiding. His knowledge of wind and thermals is also very informative. Gotta get me some milkweed (LOL)

I like this post!! Your not the first one to tell me I overanalyze! Point taken. LOL I'll continue to post on here what I find, what approaches I take etc.. Anyone else wanting to chime in have at it.

What is it about your "spot". Describe the terrain, the cover, available food, how you use the wind to your advantage. Is it public land, heavily hunted private land or low pressure private land?? You obviously don't need to tell anyone where it is you hunt but feedback like that could give visuals of an area they obviously feel secure to travel.

Guess I'm trying to find the "spot". I see and counted on seeing that some of you track for your bucks. I really haven't tried this tactic for a couple reasons. #1. We "sometimes" have tracking snow in rifle season. Very, very rarely during bow season. #2. Although I have what I consider large public land to hunt (5k ac. or more), it's bordered by private land that I don't have access. It only takes one turn the wrong way and the tracking is over because of heading into private land. #3. Most importantly, I sure as heck don't want to bust my butt chasing after a dandy buck to end up pushing him in front of another hunters gun. This is probably the biggest "problem". There isn't a day of the rifle season I don't see more than a handful of trucks parked along the road. Rifle season is a free for all where I hunt in Pa. It's amazing these bucks live one year to the next but they do. That's why I concentrate on bow hunting for mature bucks. Less competition from other hunters and we catch the pre-rut/ rut.