hunter avg. age in NY

[mike rossi]

If the teacher was professional he/she should have discussed hunting BEFORE the field trip AND advised students that hunters may be afield. Reacting after the fact shows failure to prepare for something that was reasonably predictable AND lack of competence by neglecting to prepare the students about an activity (hunting) very central to conservation. The fact that the students "booed" you is proof positive these kids were already biased against hunting and the teacher had not addressed it. Hey, I guess they figure if its a sport, they can act like spectators... Not - on public conservation lands you are prohibited from excessive noise as well as disorderly conduct. Hunter harassment also was not addressed, including that it is a punishable offense of the law.... I think that teacher has some learning to do himself...

Edited January 8, 2014 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

And yes, as you said, others want more access. I have warned about state wildlife agencies, including, or more accurately - especially the NY DEC, as well as the FWS, actively encouraging the public at large to recreate on conservation lands. I have also advised sportsmen to volunteer and indicated that the ratio of sportsmen who volunteer in conservation is lower than non shooting conservationists, some of which are antis. In particular I informed sportsmen that NY and NJ are two of the non hunting states which are along with the hunting states have started banding mourning doves since 1997. I advised that volunteer opportunities to assist with banding at Great Swamp were filled by non hunters and that there may be opportunities at other locations. I mention doves , there are far more numerous examples, but understanding the tug a war going on over doves it is remarkable that  sportsmen aren't making a contribution and others are...

 

So lets get back to your statement that everybody wants more access. Yes the wildlife agencies are promoting the outdoors and encouraging the use of conservation lands to the public majority, fine. But are they preparing them to respect hunters and the sport of hunting, like the teacher you spoke of did not? Are they teaching the public the central role of hunting in conservation - as the teacher you spoke of did not? For as long as I have been alive hunters have been told not to offend the general public, yet now that the public is actually out there, are they getting the reciprocal message to respect us?

 

Hunters are to blame themselves. Most have responded to me that it is public land. Why, because they believe the more chaos and filth going on the more they might get away with things they want to do, like use their ATVs or drive off road on conservation lands.

 

I have not posted about this and it is not by accident I did not: But for the past 2 summers the DEC has been sending wildlife technicians to WMAs to survey people about their opinions about unmanned target shooting ranges on WMAs. I am against it and I am glad they were asking people using the lands BT - before target shooting. Because the people who will support it are not there in the summer but will come in droves AT- after target shooting... Asking the people who it would impact is appropriate. But this is an example of a social issue being handed in part to the public majority. Hunters are going to beach about this, just watch what posts below.. But it makes sense to do it this way.

 

Within the realm of defined uses of Pitman Robertson Lands and besides what is classed as public priority uses there is a broader designation called "legitimate uses". Some uses are considered legitimate and others are just plain prohibited. Interference with public priority uses and disturbing wildlife is also prohibited. I cant see how it can be considered responsible to promote use of these lands without also educating the public about these concepts. 

[mike rossi]

GB,

 

The way you are discussing this is confusing it. Now it sounds like I am reneging on my earlier statement about interpretive leaders providing their group with info that does not facilitate anti hunters. I am not reneging. The particular example you given about a teacher does not represent good education. And what I said about the DEC and other agencies failure to prepare the public to appreciate hunting , respect hunters and not interfere with the activity of hunting  - ie. running your dog through someone's field decoys...  Is not the same either. This conversation is all over the place and everyone is not on the same page... I am asking you again, please break it down into smaller parts...

[greybeard]

ok, I accept that.. Let's start with the teacher..

   Because of the location, I doubt that the teacher knew that hunter's would be there, in fact, I'd be shocked if she knew...Most waterfowl hunters that I know didn't realize that they could hunt there..It's kind of at a Marina with a fishing education center there, then the marsh..I cannot fault teacher for not knowing. If anything the Town could have told her. Remember, this is Long Island, many people here don't even realize that there are duck hunters in the bay. It's just the way it is here. I can give examples of other reasons why she probably didn't know, but it will get too wordy, you'll just have to trust me that it was perfectly understandable.. Also,  I heard how she handled it and I was happy with her response, she was really good..

 

Just for clarification, my earlier posts were first to advise of non and anti hunters attempting to have a voice in our sport. It did not matter to me, while I was writing it,  what they were taught about respect for our rights, or understanding what we do.It was just passing on information that I read, and also my opinions. I thought that hunters should be aware of organized groups that are trying to influence our hunting areas.

The second part was about non hunters obtaining hunting licenses, and one site not only doesn't respect hunters they preach disruption..

 

I don't know if you have gotten to read about the non hunters stamp and why they want it. If I got carried away, then I deserve criticism for that. However, the point is that they are against shooting ducks, and want a voice in the refuge. To gain a louder a voice, the stamp was created. They believe that the stamp will produce revenue, so that they can influence legislators.

 

So that's my shorter version.....

 

If you have not read the site, I would hope that you will,, and see if you disagree . I can go into the site and quote parts, but it's better if you read it and give your analysis . We can be specific about the non hunters stamp, and in particular why it was created. No interpretations, just facts.

Secondly, if you wish to discuss the non hunters obtaining hunting licenses we can do that on the post after that, so as not to combine thoughts.

 

My intention was not to do battle, just pass on some information.

 

(I will not have continuous  internet access over the next few days, so if it takes me time to respond)

 

 

[mike rossi]

GB:

 

First, your tone the last few posts sounds like you think that I am fully disagreeing with you. I am not, except the part about sportsmen solidarity. On that topic I agree with Doc for the reasons he had given and for the other reasons I had given.

 

Regarding your encounter with the class, the parts of this thread relevant to competing land uses all focused on conservation lands such as wmas, refuges, coops, and conservation easements. We also discussed that like hunting, environmental education is one of the public priority uses of Pitman-Robertson Lands.

 

If your encounter with the teacher and her class occurred on a conservation land would your perspective be different? I would be more critical of her, however I still do not excuse her incompetence even if it was Long Island and even if it was a hunter legally accessing navigable water from a public or private marina. Any educator, IMO, should have a broad knowledge base. Furthermore, even though this did not occur on PR Lands, you did in fact indicate it was some sort of nature or environmental field trip. For that reason where it occurred does not matter very much and any teacher of ecological matters should be expected to have a fair amount of knowledge about hunting and its relationship to conservation, and its controversial position in society. Any teacher , especially when taking students outside the school, has a responsibility to be prepared for reasonably likely encounters. The encounter was a duck hunter, not an outer space alien... I think a duck hunter at a marina in the autumn can be reasonably expected, and I wont say even in LI, I would say especially in LI given its waterfowling tradition and abundance of birds. That tradition as well as LI's function as a fall staging and wintering area for a large number of waterfowl bolsters my argument - If the teacher wasn't up on the seasonal influx of waterfowl in the immediate area what was she teaching about, African Big Game? If your teaching ecology on LI in the autumn you are going to cover waterfowl - Period...

 

I have an off shoot question about this. Did you have your retriever with you? How did it react to the cat-calls from the students or more accurately the little bass turds?  

 

 

[greybeard]

You are wrong about the teacher, and you do not understand LI. You may  accept that , but it's just the way it is.. (These kids were really young, so I doubt that hunting would be included in any ecological discussion.)

 

Seeing a duck hunter in autumn at a marina would shock more people than you may think. my neighbor saw me with a goose in Oct. and when I told him where I shot it, he respectfully questioned the legality.. He kept shaking his head repeating that I was unbelievable. He has lived on LI for most of his adult life, and he's retired....(I'm the only duck hunter that he knows.). I actually started duck hunting a few years after I retired, I did not know any duck hunters, and really never did. I learned by myself and only met other waterfowlers after I started. I had no idea about duck hunting and I was a hunter and lived on LI most of my life.

One time,I was hunting in the tidal wetlands, and got stopped by 2 county cops because someone saw guys with guns on the outskirts walking in. When I explained why I had a gun to the pd , they did not know that duck hunters would be there. They were not rookies. I didn't ask, but I guess that they didn't know the tradition. I was in camo, wearing waders and carrying a bag of decoys, and it wasn't Halloween, but  I was ordered to put my shotgun on the ground and I was asked questions(they were respectful).  In addition,the duck hunting tradition is known by very few these days, and non hunters do not think about it. I can give many more  examples, I have many, but I don't think it's necessary.. ( oh yeah,I did not have a dog).

 

In addition, the booing was not the issue , it was an example of  problems that can occur, when sharing  land, with those opposed  hunting and  who are seeking a voice. I pointed out what happened in Huntington. When the children and parents were upset,and officials did not like the hunters attitude. they closed the whole Harbor in that town. The North Shore of Long Island has a deep tradition of duck hunting, yet it didn't matter. It's closed !!!

 

To answer your question of would I have felt different if the booing happened in those other areas. Yes, I would have because those lands are designated Refuges, or hunting areas which I suspect are posted as such.. However, sharing those areas with people who do not want to see ducks shot and want more of a voice to compete with hunters concerns me.

 

I think that we have beat this to death now, so we should just end it. Besides, it has only become a discussion between you and I, and I doubt that either of us  will change his mind.

 

So we'll just end with some disagreement.

 

Besides, this room is being renovated and it's where I have my computer.

 

 

 

[mike rossi]

Don't elevate police officers to validate the defects of a teacher....  

 

I want to forget about teachers & cops  and discuss non hunting stakeholders and managing competing land uses on public lands. If you are done with this thread fine, but I have not found a non hunters stamp on the FWS website. Did you mean this was in the idea stage or proposed or did you literally mean it has already been created?