Doc

Wow, talk about a topic heading off into the wild blue yonder.....lol. You guys really know how to destroy a thread. You know, if you want to have a political ideological argument, you might want to start your own thread and take it off to the political area of the forum.

I'm having a hard time understanding where you are going with your arguments. Are you just generally against all guns or some guns or what is all this talk about how much evil that is perpetrated by guns. I think we know that, but what is your point?

I'm wondering if some of these gas companies might start putting some research into finding non-toxic cocktails to inject into the earth with this process. Get rid of the (secret) toxins and instantly the opposition goes away.

It seems there is a report to support just about any position anyone might have on the subject. It's old phrase: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure".

And using a gun is also most efficient implement for self protection to defend yourself, your family and your home. But there are far too many who are more than happy to force you to be helpless and unarmed and completely at the mercy of anyone who wants what you've got. And no, I don't ever want to be in a position of telling others what kind of weapon they should be choosing for their self defense. That's not my business.

I can't even comment on this Fracking thing. It seems that for every piece of scientific evidence one side comes up with, the other side comes up with off-setting scientific evidence. I honestly have not seen a preponderance evidence for one side or the other. Most of the people that have a 100% intransigent position on this issue don't really know any more than I do.

This site is both. Since the link between guns and hunting is obvious, it would seem equally obvious that both are related themes.

Well, when it comes to the link between hunting and gun rights, I think a little dose of fear, reality, and awareness is a good thing. I think they need to become aware that there are those out there that are intent on removing all weapons from this country, and that they are indeed making great strides because of gun owner apathy. If that scares them, then good. It scares me too. If that sounds like the words of a zealot, so be it. Those that want hunting to extend beyond ourselves and into the future for our children and grand-children and beyond should be concerned about such things, and even a bit impassioned because it is obvious to anyone with a pulse, just where all this is heading. And God forbid if they should happen to shoot this gun that they bought for hunting and actually enjoy the shooting part. They have just become hooked on an activity that will eventually get them labeled a zealot, and a "gun-nut". They will soon learn that even target shooting is shunned by the left because it still involves private ownership of that evil implement ..... the dreaded gun. For some reason you threw in that these newcomers are typically politically liberal. I don't know why you made that assumption, but perhaps if that is the case, it needs to be pointed out to them just where all this gun-control nonsense is really coming from. It's not all that difficult to track down. Whether they can be convinced to join the pro-gun side of things is up to their open-mindedness and their willingness to accept what is, and always has been, right there in front of their face. If their political ideals serve as blinders, then they probably had better take up knitting because they never will get it until they find that they can't afford or get ammunition, or any guns to put it in when they decide that they want to go hunting.

It appears that all we really want to do is nit-pick and find fault with the only gun advocacy organization that has the size, infrastructure, track record, and resources to actually make a difference. I hear all kinds of people here who have found one issue after another to justify their reasons for withholding support but I have yet to hear anyone explain just what it is that they individually do to ensure protection of gun owner's rights. One guy wants to let Ducks unlimited handle gun rights issues. We have another who ran into an obnoxious NRA employee so that justifies withholding support of the whole organization. Another guy thinks that just because he has bought guns and uses them that somehow he is doing something to hold back the tide of anti gun legislation. And most gun owners don't even invest the thinking that it takes to conjure up any kind of reason why they don't support the NRA. They just simply jam their head in the sand, cross their fingers and hope for miracles. Or maybe they comfort themselves in the thought that during their lifetime nothing terrible will happen. Who gives a damn about the rights of future gun owners, hunters, enthusiasts of shooting sports and those concerned with personal and home defense. But the truth is that there is only one organization who really is doing something about 2nd Amendment issues, and everyone is conjuring up their own little reasons for turning their backs and throwing themselves on the mercy of the anti-gun and anti-hunting organizations. It is amazing how these same people will register with a particular political party and ignore all the idiots and goofy and even illegal and immoral activities of the politicians who they represent. And yet will use every little pet peeve under the sun to justify letting those who fight for our 2nd Amendment rights swing in the breeze completely unsupported.

Frankly, I am getting a little tired of kowtowing to these bunny-huggers. We are a site that discusses all aspects of hunting, warts and all. The day we have to begin censoring our thoughts and words to satisfy those people is the day they have won. Let's stop arranging our forum discussions around what the antis will or won't do with the things that need discussion. I'm not a big fan of taking our sport into the shadows and cowering before these people just because we have some issues that need discussion and correction.

What? ......... why mess around. Just go into the woods, get your deer, and get home. I know it can be done because I see the real hunters doing it on TV all the time.

There does seem to be some weird code about being a "snitch" that apparently was designed to protect those that do anti-social things. Frankly, I don't think those kinds of people need my protection. Break the law all you want, but it probably is not a real smart idea to let me know about it.

That is probably one of the safest shots that you will ever see. All of the background is visible. There is a perfect earthen backstop. You almost never see that unless you hunt on rifle ranges. Even someone in full camo would be visible. Nice quartering away shot. Super close. If the law were changed to make that a legal shooting time, there is no question that you will never find a more safe and perfect shot than that. Of course if I were standing there instead of a camera, he probably would never stand in that position ...... lol. The other question is how much assist in vision is the infra-red giving. Also how about we place that deer 50 to 75 yards farther down the trail in that un-backstopped dark area? That nice shooting light starts forming up some hard question marks, doesn't it? Would that still be acceptable shooting light and conditions?

You could but I don't think traffic violations would carry the same stigma as game law violations. probably wouldn't draw a whole lot of attention. I don't think I would read such an article.

What you are calling a litmus test is simply opposing views to some of the more controversial topics that are raised. That is all a logical part of a public internet forum. People have some deep seated opinions that they feel quite passionate about. Not everyone responds in a civil fashion, and that is unfortunate, but when you get into sensitive areas, you never know what tone the opposition replies will take. Frankly, when you start a topic that bashes the only effective pro-gun organization that gunners have, you should not be surprised in a forum consisting of a huge percent of gun owners that some in that forum are going to have some pretty strong opinions that do not agree with yours. That is not a litmus test, that is just common sense. I will agree that no one is going to agree with every position that the NRA (or any organization) takes. It is silly to think that you should or even could. But like I said before. If you are withholding support from every organization that you have some differences with then the result is that you simply are out of the system when it comes to protection of gun owner's rights. And if that is your position, then you are leaving your gun rights hanging out there waiting for the anti-gun machine to inevitably lop them off. I for one understand the impatience for people who simply ride the coat-tails of the NRA members and let them do the work while the nit-pickers reap the benefits. And I can also understand how that impatience might boil over into hostility. That's not bullying, and that's not a litmus test. That's simple human nature. Try for a moment to imagine if a member of PETA joined this forum and started bad-mouthing hunting. What do you suppose the reaction would be. If you can understand that, you should be able to understand how those that are invested in organized gun advocacy and pro-gun lobbying feel about someone slamming the one organization that unquestionably has been the solitary force beating back annual draconian gun legislation that is piled into the agenda of every session of government. What exactly have all these unaffiliated gun owners done to stop gun legislation besides whine about the NRA? Only one word comes to mind and that is "nothing". So those that do nothing are bashing those that do something. You can't complain about a reaction when you pick a fight.

I know we would like to assume that coyotes could never take down a healthy adult deer, but I have seen enough situations that show they can, including a case of domestic dogs of about the same size as coyotes pulling down an adult doe until I interrupted the action. So I have no doubt that the deer likely was a healthy individual.

Yup, I've seen it. I was in a hedgerow next to a field heading home. The field had a super dense thicket at the bottom. Heard a shot inside the thicket, a couple hundred yards down the field. 5 deer ran out into the field, and went up the hill into the woods. One of the five did a little circle back into the thicket and wasn't running in a way that looked quite right to me. All of a sudden a "hunter" popped out into the edge of the field. He took one glance to the right, and one to the left and went back into the thicket. A couple of minutes later I heard a car door slam, and the guy took off. Didn't look for tracks, blood or anything. So, I went down and found a huge doe laying there about 4' into the brush. Tagged her up, gutted her out, and away I went. Had I not seen this whole fiasco, that deer would have rotted right there. For some guys if the deer doesn't pile up right there on the spot, they assume it was a miss.

I don't understand the comment. Is there supposedly something stupid about knowing the terms of the law? What exactly is "so stupid"? I don't get it.

Here is why the question is so interesting, and yet so hard to put into words. It has all been bred into us. It is our natural state. We are predators. The results of evolution have put those traits into our species. Yes, most people have learned to suppress their natural instincts, but still it comes out in sports and all forms of competition. Others struggle with their nature as predators believing it to be a defect and they spend their entire lives trying to pretend they are something they are not. But we hunters take a more honest approach to life and do not deny our obvious products of our evolution or pretend there is something evil in predation that is part of humanity.

No, there is no litmus test for this forum that involves anything to do with the NRA. However, I do have a problem with not supporting the largest and most effective pro-gun/pro-hunting national organization in the U.S. I understand that not everyone agrees with every one of the principles and goals of the NRA. But, I also understand that it is not necessary to support 100% of any organization to recognize that the over-all results of what they do are in keeping with my ideals and goals. That is the one thing that keeps us from being a viable political force as gun owners is that we find any excuse, to the point of nit-picking, just to keep from joining. It becomes a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you are waiting to find a gun/hunting organization that you have absolutely no issues with, then I guess you have resigned yourself to never becoming a part of the pro-gun lobby. As for myself, I know the required power of being organized to safeguard shooter's rights, because those who would remove those rights are highly organized and highly financed and have become highly effective at whittling away at our rights. You cannot take on a well organized opponent without being well organized yourself. Those who refuse to be organized are simply tag-a-longs who are willing to let others carry the load so they can free-load off their backs. As to the 20% figure that you quoted, while not taking that number as gospel, I will simply say that if that number is anywhere near correct, you have just highlighted the amazing level of apathy among gun owners. As for me I choose not to be part of the apathetic. Your choice is your own.

This is one of the many ways that wildlife can go. No animal dies peacefully in it's sleep as so many anti-hunters imagine. Mother Nature is very brutal wildlife manager.

Nothing there for $49. There was kind of a dressy black one that had a regular price of $169, on sale for $119. The camo one was a regular price of two hundred and thirty something dollars, and had a sale price of $139. Quite a difference between internet prices and store prices. No battery or charger in any of those prices. They were sealed up in boxes, and the sales-dude wouldn't open any for me to try on. Talk about buying a pig in a poke .....lol. That's why I don't buy clothing online. It seems that sizes vary depending on what the article is, and where the damn things are being made. They had one on display, and it was a 3XL. It almost fit me and I am no where near that size, so that along with past experience with bogus sizing, there is no way I would buy anything without trying it on first. I think the battery is a special Craftsman battery pak which likely a few years from now, if you wanted to have a spare or replace a dead one probably would no longer be available ..... lol. Needless to say, I didn't buy one. Too bad because it would satisfy my archery needs perfectly.

A pile of them. I don't really keep track, but I didn't miss a lot of them other than when the weather was stupid, or I had appointments. On the highway? ........ None

I think that a list like that for every area should show up in every local newspaper as an embarrassment to those that think it is so great to ignore game laws. If the size of the fines doesn't act as a prevention, maybe a little good old fashioned shame from the very hunting peers that some of these jerks are trying to impress will help them take a more responsible view of the game laws of the state. Frankly, I am getting darned sick of people who laugh at the laws that I and so many others abide by. And if they don't happen to like a little exposure of their character to the public ....... tough!

We have one member that repels down the walls of the gorge, dressed in his loin-cloth with nothing but a hunting knife clenched in his teeth and goes where no mere mortal can go to find the huge monsters that reside there. He must have gotten some near-record buck out of there this season.