Doc

It seems that maybe there has been a lot of "topic drift". The actual original question was: "If they stopped all buck hunting, Would you continue to hunt at the same level and desire? What would hunting mean to you?" There is nothing there that tells anybody what they are supposed to think or feel or do. It's a simple question regarding your personal reaction to a specific scenario. Nothing there asking anyone to critique anyone's opinion or justify your own. I believe that people can have opinions on this question without "high-horse" accusations or accusations of lying. My opinion is that I would continue to hunt at the same level and desire. Does that mean that I would not feel that something had been taken away? Heck no. A hunting opportunity would have been taken away. That's not a nice thing, but buck hunting is not the reason that I get excited each deer season. I think anytime opportunities are regulated away, something is taken away and lost. Is that a reason to think less of hunting and the opportunities remaining. Not for me. I would still be enthusiastic just as I was when I first started, and looking forward to another season. Does that opinion in any way indicate that I believe that everyone needs to agree with me? .... Not hardly. It is simply my opinion and is a product of my own hunting outlooks and reasons and past experiences. And yes, I would join other hunters in protest to get buck hunting reinstated. But if you actually read the initial question, the answer gets real simple to answer and almost gets down to a simple yes or no answer. And really none of it calls for any hard feelings or attempts to change anyone's mind.

Lol ..... Done!

With all this focus on bucks, I have often wondered if there were as many bucks as does, which would be the hardest to hunt, the buck who periodically loses his mind over sexual matters, leaving behind highly visible signs of his presence, or the wise old doe who has spent months and years looking after herself and bunches of dopey youngsters. It's an interesting question to contemplate. Are those prized bucks worthy of all the high esteem that we place on them or is all their mystique and supposed superior intelligence simply the result of the fact that they are simply "rarer".

We all measure hunting satisfaction in our own personal way. I think what is even more hard to understand is why some refuse to understand that others place a different standard on hunting success. Is it an ego thing? ..... Who knows what is going through people's heads when they define their wants and needs regarding hunting. All I know is that we are all in it for our own personal needs, and the only time anyone should be concerned about such things is when the thinking and attitudes of others are being forced onto the rest of us who don't share those thoughts and attitudes. Then we have an issue of contention.

The question asked for a personal response as to my reaction if bucks were out of the hunting picture. I am simply saying that my hunting was initiated and flourished in practically that very scenario, and my enthusiasm and dedication to deer hunting grew into a lifetime activity in that very atmosphere. There is nothing about TVs and iPads that have altered that enthusiasm. My hunting goals and the satisfaction that I get from deer hunting have not been influenced by whatever technology that has entered into our lives. My hunting needs and satisfactions go much deeper than that. But you are right, each new generation does allow more and more of their hunting satisfactions to be determined by reliance on technology. Other impacts of the very technology you are referring to have persuaded more and more individuals to sit on that couch with their iPad and 55" TVs instead of going outdoors and doing such things as hunting, which is now increasingly regarded as a "waste of good productive time". Does all of that impact the need for others to require antlers and numbers to measure their hunting success and satisfaction? ..... Perhaps. I'm not sure why, but I do know that it has not impacted any of my requirements of the hunt nor added any pressure to measure hunting satisfaction with antlers.

I keep going back to that site and spending a few hours each time. Amazing studies! Thanks for the link.

Wouldn't it be great if we could put ourselves in the dryer for ten minutes; come out wrinkle-free and three sizes smaller! Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators. We haven't met yet! I don't trip over things, I do random gravity checks! I don't need anger management. I need people to stop pissing me off! Old age is coming at a really bad time! When I was a child I thought Nap Time was a punishment ... now, as a grown up, it just feels like a small vacation! The biggest lie I tell myself is ... "I don't need to write that down, I'll remember it." Lord grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can & the friends to post my bail when I finally snap! I don't have gray hair. I have "wisdom highlights". I'm just very wise. My people skills are just fine. It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work. Teach your daughter how to shoot, because a restraining order is just a piece of paper. If God wanted me to touch my toes, he would've put them on my knees. The kids text me "plz" which is shorter than please. I text back "no" which is shorter than "yes". I'm going to retire and live off of my savings. Not sure what I'll do that second week. I've lost my mind and I'm pretty sure my spouse took it! Even duct tape can't fix stupid ... but it can muffle the sound! Why do I have to press one for English when you're just gonna transfer me to someone I can't understand anyway? Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advice. Oops! Did I roll my eyes out loud? At my age "Getting lucky" means walking into a room and remembering what I came in there for. Chocolate comes from cocoa which is a tree ... that makes it a plant which means ... chocolate is Salad !!!

I can't imagine why the shape of a blind would make any difference. But then who knows? Somehow you have to see it from the deer's perspective. Are your observations based on a significant number of data points. You want to be sure that the coincidence factor is not effecting your conclusions. Who knows? ..... Maybe you have discovered something of importance to ground blind design.

Oh what a disgusting thing it is for me to have to agree with FSW ..... lol. You have no idea how it pains me ....ha-ha-ha. But I don't care if the 2000 acre parcel of high fence had a roof over it. Such a hunt would be completely fair chase as long as the deer didn't come when their names are called or come when a grain pail was rattled. 2000 acres is a huge area and the way deer circle and double back, it would be a huge challenge. Actually, just for fun, I may try to look up a study that I read where enclosed deer successfully eluded a group of experienced hunters in a much, much smaller area.

That's an easy question for me. When I first began bow hunting, that was pretty much the scenario. Not too many of us even talked about harvesting a buck because frankly, they just were way too few and far between. Monday morning conversations at work centered on who actually saw a deer. My gosh back then if anybody even got a shot, they dominated the conversation for the whole morning. And if somebody actually got a deer, there wasn't any of this nonsense about asking what it scored .... lol. Score? .... What's that? It sure was a fun kind of hunting and it really didn't take a lot to get everybody excited. So bucks were out of the picture in a practical sense, and bowhunting was never as exciting and rewarding. Not having trophy bucks behind every tree didn't dampen our spirits any and in fact I think we enjoyed our hunting much more back then.

I went scouting yesterday in the kitchen. I took a glance out the window, under the bird feeder, and spooked a couple of does.....lol. Well, to be serious, I don't take winter scouting very seriously. Most of my needs for patterning deer are aimed at bow season. And what is going on right now has absolutely nothing to do with what will be going on in October or November. In fact, it really has very little to do with what will be going on in early parts of gun season. Food sources are totally different. Bedding areas do not have the cover that they have early in hunting season. In fact what I have found is that as soon as the snow cover becomes somewhat permanent, deer don't even follow their fair-weather trails. They almost seem to go out of there way to ignore those trails. Also the more severe cold weather puts new requirements on the deer who are now into a survival mode. They have new concerns about shelter and protection from winds and other factors that were not necessary when the climate was much different during bow season. What can be determined with winter scouting is some rough gauge of how much of the population may have survived the gun season.

To be honest, I simply don't dare get into cigars. My addiction to smoking had such a hold on me that I went through hell trying to quit. There were so many times that I quit only to eventually falter and have that "one" cigarette and it was instant addiction all over again. I'm afraid that a cigar would have the same effect. The fact is that I still get some pretty powerful urges to run out and grab a cigarette. My best bet is to stay the hell away from any tobacco products. But I will say that back in my smoking days, I quite frequently enjoyed a cigar, and even a pipe as well as the cigarettes.

Lol..... We used to get into cops and robbers and cowboys and Indians as a mainstay of play when I was a youngster. I can't say that it ever affected my psyche, or created a mass murderer. There is a line between play and reality that never really got blurred. Paintball would be a blast if I were a lot younger. I do sense some P.C. indoctrination beginning to take a firm hold on society and being ingrained in even those that are trying to resist.

I absolutely agree, just like I believe that those with marginal deer herds, and without the means to afford leases, or heavily populated deer havens should be punished with over regulation and a raising of the bar in areas where the current bar is already nearly out of reach.

Yeah, we need to figure out a way of screwing up hunting for rabbit, turkey, goose, duck or anything else we hunt by establishing Pope & Young, and Boone & Crockett scoring. Worst thing tat ever happened to deer hunting was when we started to assign numbers as a measurement of success. What a goofy idea. That is when competition between man and beast became competition between hunter and hunter. Kind of began all this in-fighting and crazy antler worship.

I think it I kind of fun listening to all the variations of opinion on all of these hot-button issues among hunters. I like seeing the opinions, and some of the reasons for them. You get to learn a lot about the hunter mentality and pick up an appreciation for the passions and intensity behind hunting. Also, it gives some people an opportunity to tell the world how good they are at hunting ..... lol. Where else do you get a chance to brag about how great you are with no one around to call you on it. Probably no one at home that evens listens to that kind of arrogance anymore. Here there is a whole new audience.....ha-ha-ha. This thread has been a blast!

I know of three separate cases where this happened exactly as you described it. One of the guys was less than 200 yards from where they parked the car. His words......"This doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment". He was not kidding, and indeed never went hunting again. The deer was a huge 11 point that any hunter here would be thrilled to get.....lol.

A bunch of years ago, I shot a 3-legged doe. About 1' of the left front leg was missing. The skin that grew over the wound looked like the pad of a dog's foot. You could not tell from the gait of the deer that anything was wrong. She was layered with fat like I have never seen on a deer. She was shot in a small field that I maintain as another lawn area that is surrounded by a huge dense thicket in front of our house. My theory is that unlike other deer that move from the bottom of the valley up the hill and back constantly, she just stayed in that thicket eating and sleeping and living a life of total luxury just building huge fat reserves. She had everything she needed right there in our thicket and in that field. By the way, she had been nursing, so she apparently had been successful bred the previous year. Amazing and resilient animals.

Some of these guys really don't seem to be all that smart. They think their posted signs protect them from getting caught and then plop a feeder or big pile of corn or apples or whatever where any low-flying plane or chopper can see them .... lol. Also, I would imagine the "loose lips sink ships" principle gets a bunch of them too.

I am a big proponent of online surveys. Once the software is written, it takes the cost of labor right out of the data-gathering game. Input is ones and zeros. Receipt of data is ones and zeros. even the bulk of analysis is ones and zeros. And with computers everywhere these days, voluntary participation eliminates every excuse relating to lack of involvement. Oh and by the way, demographics, regions, and whatever volumes of supporting data can be supplied at the click of a button. Personal computers were made for public data gathering. I have no idea why the DEC or Cornell or anyone who is serious about getting the real picture is not using them. It is absolutely weird that in 2015, we are still using the U.S. Postal Service for labor intensive data gathering that necessitates questionable numbers of data points.

If they still consider that to be the case, then what is this survey with an eye toward adding new restrictions all about. I sense they are saying one thing from a management stance and a completely different thing from a political stance. And I think I offered a plausible explanation as to why.

No, my selection has nothing to do with a fear of change. It has everything to do with the fact that laws have proliferated annually to the level that now everytime we go hunting, we can be pretty sure that we are breaking at least one unknown law. And now they are talking about yet another subdivision with another complex description of boundaries in order to implement these changes. Enough is enough! Basically, a vote for no change, is a change in the mentality that every issue needs a further restriction. I actually want so much change that I know that no one will go for it. I want every existing law to be re-addressed, and properly justified or deleted. Now there is a radical change that would be meaningful ... not simply throwing more regulations everytime someone gets a new fad-management brain-fart. Damn, we get enough of that screw-ball thinking in our civil and criminal law. We don't need that mentality in our Conservation law too.

So, what's the deal with this apparent DEC shift in opinion on the attempted protections of 1.5 year old deer. I do remember a Hurst quote that essentially said that there is no biological justification for AR, and in fact it is more of a social (political ....lol) issue than a game management issue. So this reversal sounds like a decision to let hunters take over the management and the hell with good sound management principles recommended by trained biological DEC employees. Well it might be more accurate to say that maybe there is an ulterior motive to this strange opinion shift. I have not seen a whole lot of rules changes in the last decades that were not specifically aimed at herd reduction ... statewide. I'm thinking that the thought here is that the harder you make a buck harvest, the more does that will be taken to compensate for the likely "deerless" season results that new rule of buck harvest harassment will cause. Perhaps this is really all just a back-door effort to force doe harvests.

I believe the most attractive selection of the 5 is the last one that favors No changes at all. That selection is reinforced by the fact that they find it necessary to come up with yet another dissecting of the state. I fear that by the time they are finished with this boondoggle, the odds of keeping all the boundaries straight and the unique set of regulations within those boundaries, they will have established yet another case where hunters are never 100% certain that they are not violating laws and risking heavy fines. I want to see things heading back in the direction of simplicity where all conservation laws are looked at and evaluated and discarded if they make no sense or are flat out wrong. Get that stuff all reduced down to bare-bones and then we can talk about responsible ways to add new restrictions. I have watched a ton of laws discussed here on this forum where obviously no one has a clue what they mean or how to accurately comply. No one should need the services of a lawyer just to hunt.

It is specifically the word "Random" that bothers me the most. There generally is some intelligence behind participant selection. Recognizing that these subjects are highly influenced by region, deer density, availability of permits, and other specific regional influences and demographics, one would think that randomly drawing a few names out of a hat has a pretty good chance of accidentally skewing results. And as far as how well it has worked in the past, that is still highly controversial.