mike rossi

I guess I just take these posts too seriously... The GR is always described as a sweet dog and the CBR as the opposite. That belief is widely publicized and is likely influencing the OP's girlfriend. In my opinion, the most significant advantage among the retriever breeds, is the coloration of the CBR. That is just me however; some breeds, such as CBR, which mature later can be a major obstacle for people without much patience and experience training dogs. I am not sure how GR compare, but in my experience Labradors mature faster than chessies. I want to make it clear I am not saying that training a lab is easy and does not take patience - anyone who thinks they are going to bring a dog of ANY breed into their home and does not expect their life to change - should not get a dog! If allergies or vacuuming dog hair is a concern; I have read that standard poodles, irish water spaniels, portugese water dogs, and curly coat retrievers are hypoallergenic and/or do not shed. I never trained any of these breeds, but I have read that the curly coat is similar to the chessie in behavior.

One other thing to consider is as waterfowl and dove hunters we take care to camo everything, including camo vests for our dogs. However, those vests do not cover the entire dog. Unfortunately, golden retrievers, black labs, and yellow labs really stand out in the field. Chocolate labs blend in well, but many people do not like chocolates because they are concerned about the recessive genes that are responsible for that color in the lab breed. Chesapeake Bay Retrievers on the other hand are supposedly bred to be camouflaged. The three coat colors they usually have are called "dead grass'; "sedge" and brown. Off course thousands of waterfowl and tens of millions of doves are shot every year over labs and goldens. All the camo in the world wont help if the dog moves around, breaks, and/or whines in the blind... But on the other hand, camo may help... Most hunters are not hunting like the television shows and not like is done in the hunt tests and field trials behind a curtain like blind. The dog must be hidden, but at the same time be able to see the sky. This presents a difficult challenge and shiny dogs add to the difficulty.

The OP I think was contemplating CBR versus GR. Both will do the job, but I still say since his girlfriend wants one breed and he wants the other, they should get one of each....

Correction: Sexually mature and capable of reproducing at 85 days of age. Fully independent of their parents at 30 days of age. Also: Jersey hunters, that expiration date is looming fast. We don't know the status of that proposal, if someone can check it out and let us know please... Even without fact checking we already sent notification out among our Jersey network...

This is mostly tidy housekeeping but what I bolded might not be perfectly accurate, all of the warm season grasses native to the USA may not be native to NY state, although some of it is like eastern and/or northern gamma grass -not sure exactly which or both. Either way, whether warm season plantings are native to the state or just the USA, the introduced cool season grasses, forbs and other plants out thrive the warm season grasses unless there is management.... Those plantings will look good for a few years but then be reduced to a few random stems or small patches among the other plants. You might notice this if you look at unmaintained habitat plantings several years old. I lied - more than housekeeping, if you are going to make an investment do it right.... If you cant do maintenance indefinitely plant something else.... Granted the cover is there for a few years until it becomes what it is destined to become without intervention, but the name of the game is sustainability and it is Important to use those donor funds and public funds as wisely as possible too. The bold in the first paragraph isn't perfect either. The Natural Heritage program deals more with non-game and it derives some of its funding from state non game wildlife grants through teaming with wildlife. That doesn't mean projects cant be bundled and I am pretty sure but not positive that Pitman Robertson Funds are leveraged with state non game wildlife grants. So I don't believe these are entirely separate but stating they are exactly the same isn't quite accurate, lol... (One way to keep the topic bumped is to correct myself if nobody else will

The same thing is available in New York... Hunting clubs , a few persons, or even one person can enter "adopt a natural resource" agreements with the DEC and do the same in NY. There also is a "stewardship agreement" which is exactly the same thing with the NY Natural Heritage. Natural Heritage IS the DEC, but it is a division of the DEC which works closely with SUNY Environmental Department. All these programs and funding exists here and elsewhere.... Then there are the NGOs such as Pheasant Forever. Local chapters have planted cover that is good for pheasant hunting and has high wildlife habitat value for native birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians, bees and other pollinators, and helps with soil ,water recharging, carbon sequestration... But prime habitat may not be the best training cover. While on the topic of PF - when they plant native warm season grasses in NY unless they commit to maintenance this grass gets ousted. I also seen PF habitat areas next to shooting ranges, snow mobile trails, ect.... I like PF, but seen a couple projects that made me scratch my head.... Besides, with the adopt and stewardship agreements, you don't need NGOs (non government organizations), a person or a few hunters can partner with the DEC. It is best to strike a balance - plant prime habitat, but only mow part of it for training. The rest mow on a conservation minded schedule.

We predicted that would be a problem because of the way you tube is set up and also the way most people use it. Not sure how to work it out yet. I will say our playlists ( which include other people's uploads) are showing up very consistently and close to the top when a you tube or even google search is done with the most likely keywords, so in the long term I believe it is working, and this is indeed a long term endeavor to get enough people organized, informed, and engaged. In the interim and meantime this will all serve as "posturing" to the DEC, anti-hunting organizations, as well as disinterested and hostile politicians. Any suggestions on how to fix the bugs such as this or other problems, please let us know!

There is public and private money to do habitat improvements, plus tax incentives and other financial incentives for the landowner . The landowner is not required to allow public access either. I don't know if your version of improving the pond would qualify however, but worth looking into. Your comment leads right into the subject of public hunting dog training areas - Pennsylvania has them and New Jersey has them, as a matter of fact in Jersey they stock 800 bobwhites on their dog training areas the month of October. They require a $40 stamp , but so what. Not sure if the stamp is required to train or just hunting, but obviously very few people who train and field trial do not also hunt as well. When you discuss dog training areas and relaxing the regulations regarding releasing game birds (including the price of the permit and all the red tape), and the use of rock doves (pigeons) for dog training; nobody even responds,,,, Not the DEC, not the politicians, and not the county federations, NYSC Council, rod and gun clubs, or any other so-called "organized sportsman"....

Then we will add griffons to the list of non shedders... Good looking field, keep the location to yourself rather than advertise it on the internet!. Those boulders are to keep vehicles off the fields and prevent erosion. The DEC should also put in dog tie-outs or at least stakes in those parking areas. We just aren't numerous enough you know, lol.... Shade trees too to cool off quicker and keep the trucks cool... They rather build boat ramps and trails.... I have even seen bicycle racks....

Doc, I already mentioned this, but was not specific. The Federal Administrative Procedure Law and NY Administrative Procedure Law both require public review of most new proposals. These laws require the state and/or federal government to advertise proposals and hold a public comment period. Anti-hunting organizations have a trained staff which monitor new proposals of each state and the federal government on a daily basis. There actually have been occasions in which the AP Law and/or other mandated procedures were not followed, such as in Ohio in 1977; resulting in successful litigation by anti-hunting organizations. I don't know much about it, but it is also my understanding that non-profit anti-hunting organizations can recoup their legal expenses; I assume that would be especially true if the state or government violated procedural law. Not certain about this either, but with that it is easy to assume that it would be the state or government agency they recoup their money from; thereby the agency incurring not only their own loss of time or in the unlikely event they do not use in-house lawyers, legal fees; but would also pay the legal fees of the anti-hunters... If you want to delve deeper into this or want "proof", here are some links: http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/laws/administrative-procedure/553.html http://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf http://administrativelaw.uslegal.com/administrative-procedure-acts/new-york/

I think Doewhacker might add to his collection a retriever breed if he was primarily a waterfowl hunter, although in states like California the so-called versatile breeds such as wirehairs do really well, wirehairs in particular are extremely determined and have enormous prey drive. I think Lawdaz is joking around, but I will say what I have observed is that chessies, like English setters, mature later than labs. I have little experience with Goldens, so I cant comment on them. Except all dogs shed, except maybe Si Robertson's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLgSsTz9Tig

You must mean our own videos or is there a problem with the link? We have a few and likely will make some more. We posted videos made by government entities, scientists, and other hunters for several reasons. First of all they are good! Second of all we think people want to hear from others rather than just a few of us all the time about dove hunting. Third it is a burden to film and hunt. We also hunt mostly public land, if we decide to advertise some day, technically filming on public land and making a profit is illegal, believe it or not. We are working on some documentary, cartoon, and educational type videos as well, but that will take some time.

This is exactly what so many people have been arguing - we hunt animals that are uncommon and even declining, but we don't hunt one of the most abundant game species. Furthermore, the reason the declining species are becoming less abundant is because of landscape changes - including agriculture, both crop and livestock. By contrast, the mourning dove is well-adapted to landscape changes and is thriving in them. Not that we shouldn't fight landscape alteration, but some habitat change impossible to avoid and it occurs nearby the population centers where many hunters live. With gasoline and diesel running $4/gallon and time being a premium in modern life hunters are well served when they can hunt close to home.

You get a chessie and she gets a golden. Don't get the same sex though and neuter one or both before first heat of the female . She trains her dog and you train yours.

Look what we got here - Litigation! This is going to take some time to sort out and there probably are other cases. Be sure to look at the "footnotes" at the bottom which detail each who has the authority to set hunting seasons in each state. http://www.leagle.com/decision/197720252OhioApp2d150_1177

For New Jersey, a couple of comments about Proposal: PRN-2011-011.Refer to this link: http://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/adoptions/adopt_120221b.pdf Refer especially to page 1 which indicates an "expiration date" of July 13,2014. Which is less than 6 weeks away! > We do not know what this means and we are urging NJ sportsmen to look into this and take action if necessary. Also, we are not clear on the effect of this expiration date and do not have the time to look into it because it is less than 6 weeks away. We already have, however, reached out to NJ organizations about it without doing any fact checking. If you find out what this expiration date means and/or the status of this proposal and/or the current classification of the mourning dove in NJ, please let me know ASAP so we can pass the information along. Refer to page 101; the comment from a member of the public number 47 and the NJ DEP Division of Fish and Wildlife's response. This stipulation would make the mourning dove and six other birds a game species but would not automatically set a hunting season. It would be preferable that this stipulation included the establishment of a hunting season; however even as it stands it "paves the way for a dove season". Notice that this rule making was under the NJ DEP; Division of Fish and Wildlife; Endangered and Nongame Species Program. The significance of that is that if sportsmen are not watching the Nongame Program, they are not aware of many proposals; however the antis are very much aware of what is going on in both the Game and Nongame Programs.

That is the unmated males (sexually mature at 70 days - good thing because most do not live 365 days with or without hunting) and the paired males version of "gobbling". We stated hearing doves this year on February 22. They have been doing their thing and there will be a good flight this fall... Also been hearing turkeys gobbling, grouse drumming, woodcock penting, and snipe calls... But nothing calling as much as mourning doves, big surprise huh?

Another thing we will look into and will report back about is the quote from Andrew of NJ DEP Wildlife in post 33, second paragraph. I may be wrong, but I am not sure if there was any litigation per se in the midwest. Michigan had the issue of repealing the two year old season but by referendum - a ballot vote during the general election, not litigation. The HSUS achieved that by gathering petition signatures. We posted the video of the cartoon video they broadcasted all over the state to influence public opinion. About that same time Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Iowa also recently passed dove seasons. Almost half of the states that hunt doves have legalized it fairly recently, and every state has faced opposition, but I am not aware of litigation in the Midwest. Rhode Island's dove season was unsuccessfully attacked a few years ago, but I am not sure if it was via litigation and will look into it and how they defended themselves against the HSUS (which apparently has more influence among the public and politicians, and more money than the states or at least the states wildlife departments). The HSUS certainly does have a history of filing injunction lawsuits demanding an EAS and/or EIS be performed before establishing a hunting season, but this is an embellishment of the endangered species act and has been shot down by the courts over and over. I think the courts have enough prior case law even back in 2006 when this was going on, to dismiss these types of lawsuits very quickly. Another issue is I have been told that non profit anti hunting organizations can recoup their legal fees. I am not sure if this occurs only if the win their case. And I wonder who they recoup it from, does the state have to pay them back? This is another law that needs to be dropped - it allows antis to file frivolous litigation at will and get paid back their legal fees making it a win-win for them - especially when they receive fresh donations for each court stunt. I would say modeling unrelated litigation after the endangered species act is an embellishment and frivolous, especially when they have done it over and over and most times the courts have dismissed the complaints, especially the more recent ones. Never the less, the HSUS has sued NJ several times. I am not sure, but it might be something unique to Jersey's laws. The well-publicized wolf and spotted owl lawsuits are different, because those complaints would be relevant to the Endangered Species Act. At least they should be different, lol...

Setters, One thing you can do is get regional outdoor writers on guided dove hunts or take them to Rhode Island or PA. A hunt in Argentina or Texas wont represent dove hunting in the northeast, but RI and PA would. Even Delaware, Maryland. Outdoor writers are organized through OW Associations and their thinking and writing is institutionalized, that is they all repeat the same stuff. Get the OW on board and they will pave the way. We are working on material to excite hunters about dove hunting, pass our stuff along. Its all about education, once a sizable group becomes interested in the recreational and meat aspect of dove hunting a sub group of them will be receptive to how it ties into conservation funding and early successional habitat. Wont happen overnight, but we mowed a path with our online presences. They are titled NY Dove Hunting, however most is applicable to other states and we have been reaching out to the other 7 non-hunting states including NJ.

Doc, The safe act was put through by a law which allows the legislature to suspend ordinary legislative processes. This law was designed for acts of war and emergencies. Senator Dean Skelos and Assemblyman Gregory Klein as leaders of their houses used this law to expedite the safe act. This has nothing to do with ordinary legislation, especially legislation that they consider low priority, such as a dove bill lol...

As far as Doc's post number 32, anti hunters, especially the HSUS, know about hunting and wildlife legislation before hunting groups do. This is really not worthy of arguing about, Doc and others are misinformed about this - you cannot sneak in legislation. AND - IF you did, the state is legally responsible for TRANSPARENCY. By law, the state and the feds must open public comment and must publish it in the state or federal register. Now days they go beyond that - they advertise in the news; on their websites, and on their face book pages. NY DEC has more anti hunters following their face book page than hunters, by the way. Forget about this idea of sneaking bills through.... In response to post 33: If you are outdoors enough and now what to look for there are many mourning doves in NY. As there are huge numbers of woodcock that stage on cape may; and Louisiana; and huge numbers of waterfowl and crows converge in certain areas; huge numbers of doves converge in Texas, Arizona, etc.... Nobody compares the staging of woodcock on their winter stopovers with were the are hunted elsewhere... Ditto for ducks, geese, crows... No, NY doesn't have the flights of Argentina or even Texas, but we have a lot of doves. There will be preparation, scouting and hunting involved to find them and pattern them however, which is a great thing... On a continental level mourning doves are the most abundant and widespread game bird; and rank 11th in overall abundance among all bird species. There are 3 management units in the USA. All units, including the eastern MU populations cycle up and down throughout the unit and in individual states, but mourning doves are very abundant even in poor years. They adapt well to human disturbances, depending on what the disturbance is, populations may actually increase in response, unlike other wildlife. A species that increases in response to human activity certainly should be a game species. Even a species that only sustains its population among human activity certainly should be a game species.. SONG BIRDS? Doves are not song birds. Song birds are characterized by their vocal apparatus. The vocal apparatus is an organ in the throat. Crows are song birds, doves are not. Crows are hunted in NY...

NJ got back to me and the correspondence is pasted below. It pretty much is consistent with what setters for life said. However, we are still asking NJ some questions about this fear of litigation. If the HSUS is truly controlling the decisions made by state wildlife agencies than we better start looking at incorporating a legal defense fund into our hunting license fee structure (mandatory). Perhaps the DEC's recent roll over regarding mute swans was due to a threat of litigation. I cant see that being the case however - recent court decisions ruled in favor of the FWS and Pennsylvania Game Commission in regards to mute swans, the DEC is aware of that, it was even stated in the draft plan. The letter from NJ mentions the "game commission". The game commission in NJ is a handful of people appointed by the governor and a few other politicians to represent the states sportsman and citizens. IN NJ there was talk for decades that anti hunters should be represented on the commission, ie. an anti hunter or two appointed to the commission, and that may have already been done, perhaps someone on here knows. Anti hunters or not I have expressed my disdain for these politically appointed citizen commissions/ councils numerous time and said why they do not work. One reason, of many reasons is: Organized sportsman DO NOT represent the more numerous unorganized sportsman. A second reason is the leaders of organized sportsman are appointed by politicians. There is a lot of irony in the NJ situation. First of all, a point 99% of the people on THIS forum will agree with; is that NJ hunters essentially choose bear hunting over dove hunting. They were willing to get sued to harvest 130 bears a year but not hunt doves or instead of doves. It would have been much smarter to let the antis pay for the USDA Wildlife Service to handle nuisance bears to the tune of 130 a year. The NJ tax payer would then truly pay for the bear removal as the antis claim is what occurs with sport hunting, which in reality saves tax money to pay the USDA and actually generates revenue instead of burning it... NJ only has about 80,000 hunters and the prospect of harvesting one of the 130 bears isn't going to recruit or retain hunters. As a result the NJ's DEP wildlife budget is going to continue to shrink and become more and more dependent on non-hunter funding of conservation. Remember what I said a few posts up about "attrition"? Second, NJ does a fantastic job at preserving its remaining bobwhite population. They annually burn 2,000 acres and do many other bobwhite management practices. Per the NJ DEP, that is Andrew, sportsman had much to do with closing the bobwhite season for conservation reasons. Closing the bobwhite season resurrected the attention to mourning doves as game. Although funds may be received from non game / teaming with wildlife; NJ sportsman was and still is the backbone of the funding strategy for bobwhite; hunters cooperated with the DEP in closing the season; and yet were not able to hunt a different bird that is the most hunted and most abundant game in the USA. From NJ DEP Wildlife (AB): My understanding is that NJ sportsmen would indeed like to have an open hunting season for mourning dove. In 1982, interested hunters formed a Sportsmen’s Legislative Action Committee to promote legislation to return mourning dove to its former game bird status. In 2009, the New Jersey State Federation of Sportsmen’s Clubs (NJSFSC) supported closing the bobwhite quail season and requested passage of a mourning dove season to compensate hunters for lost recreational opportunity. I’m sure that interest in a dove hunting season has occurred during the intervening years, but each time the NJ Fish and Game Council has opted not to propose an open season. Some Midwestern states have recently adopted an open dove season after a lengthy and expensive litigation process. I think one subsequently reverted back to a closed season, but I may be wrong. In any event, neither the NJSFSC nor the NJDFW have the financial resources that would be necessary to overcome the emotional outcry that would surely ensue a proposed open dove hunting season. NYDEC probably feels the same (and NY has 700,000? hunters compared to less than 68,000 in NJ). Our waterfowl biologist represents NJ at the Atlantic Flyway Council where season dates and bag limits are recommended for all migratory game birds, including mourning dove and I have copied him on this email so that he can contribute what information he might have regarding dove hunting in NJ. You might also wish to contact the NJSFSC (http://www.njsfsc.org/) to see what they remember of past sportsmen initiatives aimed at authorizing a dove hunting season in New Jersey.

Doc, I guess I am not quite done because there is a very good recent example. The DEC's recent mute swan plan included a number of controversial strategies along with 'public outreach". The draft plan met overwhelming disapproval because the "outreach' needs to be done first, not during and not after a controversial proposal. As a matter of fact, I submitted public comment on the draft plan and one of my recommendations was that public outreach about mute swans should be done first. That is what we are doing, putting the cart in back of the horse instead of in the front.... Will education/outreach change the opinions of people who advocate for animal rights? Off course it will not. Nobody will suggest that, but rather it is to foster public understanding about an issue and allow them to form their opinions based on facts. One of the functions we are performing is outreach. We are directing our outreach at the general public because the HSUS and local grassroots anti hunting groups will use newspapers to urge the general public to write their state senate and assembly reps in opposition to dove hunting based on predictable line of statements which we have debunked. With solid facts, the public is less susceptible to propaganda pleas; and less likely to contact their reps in opposition; and much less go from neutral to anti hunting. Our outreach is also targeting the lawmakers themselves; not because we think that the majority will vote according to the facts rather than what keeps them in office; but because we want to arm the lawmakers courageous enough to sponsor dove bills with information so they are not intimidated by a grilling by their peers during bill hearings. As a matter of fact, we want the lawmakers from animal rights country to know that if they grill our friendly politicians with ridiculous propaganda based questions - they will have potent answers for them. The information we are providing changes the balance of power in a debate and changes which lawmakers will dread a debate during a bill hearing about dove hunting. Our outreach is also directed to hunters that are not familiar with dove hunting to generate interest in it; and also how to deal effectively with opposition to dove hunting. When anti hunters start flooding the newspapers with letters it is up to hunters to win the public opinion battle and to do it they must not only respond, but they also must respond correctly. Your neighbors reading the same local news as you are much harder to influence than politicians. Your neighbors want facts and they want it delivered appropriately. However, as said, even with politicians it can be more of a show of hands. The willingness of either side to fight is based on what information they have. If they ignored our letters and decide to take it up with another lawmaker who did read our material, let them make a fool out of themselves... But you are more likely to get a lawmaker representing your voting district than I am to pay attention. So perhaps those who ignore our letters might not ignore the same information from a voter in their district.... Outreach is not our only function but this post is already quite windy. A word about face book. Face book serves as a means to organize people and get information to them. Cause pages on Face book differ from personal pages. Think of each face book cause page as a magazine. As with magazines you subscribe to the ones you like and receive them in the mail. Articles you find interesting can be "shared" with people you "friend" on face book, like photocopying an article and giving it to a fellow hunter to read, only all you need to do is click your mouse twice and its done. The frequency you receive posts depends on the page, we try to send one post every other day, but sometimes don't send anything for a work week. If a "legislative crisis" breaks out the posts might be more frequent for a while. Unless you pay a fee, and we will not, unless someone donates to us, face book actually limits the percent of your subscribers who receive your posts automatically to 7% although they rotate which subscribers get your mail. Therefore it is recommended that you go to the actual pages you are subscribed to from time to time rather than rely on your news feed. The action of "liking" a face book page automatically subscribes you to online posts and it also functions as an endorsement for a cause. Nobody is suggesting endorsement based on face book "likes" is a form of petition, but when we distribute an electronic petition in the near future, after the smoke clears from the November election, a face book following will be very facilitative to gain petition signatures.

Doc, I want to address what you said above which I bolded. Hunting proposals DO NOT escape the radar of the HSUS. You been chewed on in this thread and its not my intent to contribute to that, but based on that statement you are not at all aware of what goes on. They even know what is going on with local clubs for example the attention received about the holly squirrel slam and the greene crow down. Your a bit uninformed. Furthermore you seem to be of the impression that we are sticking our chin out and telling the HSUS to take a swing, that is not at all the case and you, like others have not figured out or tried to, how we are operating... I went through this sneak it by philosophy a few years ago with all the old federation dudes, as I just did in this thread with the war chest myth. Get off both of those, I addressed them multiple times, I am done with them. Its called moving on.

So The United states Department of Agriculture's Division of Wildlife Services used non- lead ammunition per the website? I am sure they did.