mike rossi

As if any of that supports his stance instead of the other. This site must be all about google ads, nobody is that .... Are they?

Your theory is not consistent with the WHO and the CDC. According to the World Health Organization "" There is no known level of lead exposure that is considered safe". According to the Center For Disease Control "No safe blood lead level in children has been identified". Here are those sources: CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/ WHO: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs379/en/

I found a few, Here is one you can start with. They used young pigs, 70 to 80 days old. Before the trial they were fed commercial feed which can contain lead, but they were still only 80 days old, and - the control pigs were also fed the same commercial feed.... Here is the link: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330

How can you control for all sources of lead? Run an experiment with rats or chimps? Maybe someone did, search the literature. But didn't somebody quote at least one study which indicated that venison eaters had higher blood lead levels than controls?

As I see it, up to this point, (after 3 pages), this is what we got. Did I miss anything? There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels. However, it is clear that..... Espresso has cited multiple studies which link the consumption of wild game harvested with lead ammunition to elevated blood lead levels. The use of lead ammo, either shot shells or bullets does indeed harm wildlife. As with meat samples, gut piles have.... Curmudgeon posted his own trap camera data showing many animals scavenge deer carcasses. Lead alternatives are to costly, therefore it will cause people to quit hunting. Nobody provided definitive evidence which substantiates this. Lead alternatives damage guns Nobody provided evidence which substantiates this. Lead alternatives perform poorly Nobody provided evidence which substantiates this. Some hunters claim the conclusions about lead ammunition is part of a bigger conspiracy to restrict hunting or firearms ownership. Data from the National Dove Hunting Survey was cited. 52.2 % of those surveyed in the National Dove Hunting Survey indicated they believe this to be true. That shows , at least "some"hunters believe this.

Rob, Don't get sarcastic with me. Nearly everyone on this forum is compelled to teach, not just me. You have not demonstrated you understand even the most basic everyday logic, so I am not interested in how you analyze and critique science research. You posted a price difference in ammo. That does not even prove lead ammo is cheaper across the board, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume such is true. Now, in keeping with the gist of this thread topic, can you prove that this price difference would impact participation in hunting?

Your camera trap data would be considered evidence. You and Rob are in the lead...

Some hunters argue lead alternatives are to costly. Some hunters argue lead alternatives damage guns Some hunters argue lead alternatives perform poorly Some hunters claim the conclusions about lead ammunition is part of a bigger conspiracy to restrict hunting or firearms ownership. According to the National Dove Hunting Survey: 37.6% of dove hunters surveyed said they would quit dove hunting if lead ammo was banned 65.7% of dove hunters surveyed Oppose a lead ammo ban 53.2% Of dove hunters surveyed think lead ammo performs better than steel or other non tox 52.2% Of d ve hunters surveyed say lead ban proposals are a conspiracy Who thinks any of that proves any of the bullet points?

Tom, I am not sure if he means take a look at this article or he thinks that what he quoted supports the opposite of what it actually does. He needs to clarify what he means.

Steve, The topic is getting of course, but, if you are suggesting that the statement above means the health effects of eating meat harvested with lead ammo is negligible, such that the message is not to worry about it, you are mistaken, that is not at all what that means.

Nothing was sidestepped, you over stepped. Answer and ask one question at a time. You had posted evidence showing a cost comparison, but you did not substantiate the claim that an increased cost of ammo will drive down hunting participation. Above, you mention driving down ammo sales, but that is not part of the topic.

Tom, You are not establishing any factual basis with that. Rob or someone else who argues non-lead ammo is cost prohibitive needs to back up that assumption. When they back it up with something that has teeth, then you might respond. Rob did look up info and post it, but (my fault) he did not show how that information proves non-toxic ammo will be a price barrier to hunting participation. Going back and forth saying "I won't pay a lot for that muffler is meaningless". Subjectivity, opinion that is not fact-based, and assumptions needs to be ironed out, not repeated over and over.

Our people are invested to the point, that if any opposition occurs, it will anger and activate them. However, my posts are not your personal platform to undermine our efforts.

1) Although several random comments were made in reference to this; nobody made a compelling argument disputing: A) No clear link exists between eating game and elevated lead levels Lead fragments were found in the majority of tested meat samples C) Lead accumulation in women who eventually become pregnant is transferred to the developing child and the impact of lead is greater to a fetus or infant. 2) "Some hunters argue lead alternatives are too costly" Rob defended this premise with the following information: Most basic lead or copper coated lead bullets start at least $10 below the price of non lead bullets. Example 1 ( current prices at Cabelas ): Rifle - Federal Power Shok 7mm-08 $29.99 / Federal Premium Vital Shok 7mm-08 $39.99. Example 2 Shotgun - Remington Game Load 12ga $5.97 per 25 at Wal-Mart / Rio Bismuth 12ga at Cabelas $26.99 per 10 , Hevi Shot Turkey $22.99-$37.99 per 5. You can get steel shot for less, but it's not recommended in all barrels. Though most newer shotguns should handle it. I did not word the bullet point correctly, however. I said " Some hunters argue lead alternatives are too costly". That is too subjective and meaningless. I should have said: Some hunters argue that lead alternatives are expensive and therefore will make hunting cost prohibitive to many people. At least Rob is getting the gist of litigation or debate. Hopefully others are too. It probably is too overwhelming to correct the bullet point and start over and Rob will feel dissed.

OK, this is good. However, nobody challenged bullet point 1 or 2, so all you are doing is throwing sand on the beach...

OK, this is good Rob. You provided evidence that backs up your statement. Now does anyone dispute Rob's evidence?

People like Four Seasons Whitetails are working to undermine our effort to reinstate dove hunting in NY. He and others also want to shut down the state pheasant stocking program... So get involved with NY Dove Hunting and help us fight Four Season Whitetails and all the others!

Rob, It doesn't seem that you understand what this post is about. Are you addressing the bullet point: Some hunters argue lead alternatives are too costly? If so, all you did was restate the bullet point. That is not how you prove your point. To prove your point, you need to provide verifiable evidence. What is your proof that lead alternatives are too costly?

For many years there has been a nationwide movement to ban both mourning dove hunting and state pheasant stocking programs. If your next question is why, we do not have that answer and do not care to speculate. However, we do know it is not because of a ground swell of opposition from the general public and bird watchers as the Humane Groups claim. It is driven by the Humane Groups, however, they practically stand alone in this campaign; although they do make considerable effort in conducting outreach targeted at bird watchers and the general public. Such outreach has even had an impact on some hunters; our social research clearly shows that Humane Groups (along with outdoor writers) are the biggest influence on some hunters regarding the matters of dove hunting and state pheasant stocking programs.

OBJECT - RELEVANCE.

Oh, no, I am not in this. If I made a mistake than correct it, but I am pretty sure the report I read said that the vast majority or all of the samples contained lead. Not sure but I think that was North Dakota. The report about the gut piles would be up to you to locate as well. As I predicted, nobody would engage in this thread anyway. That suggests to me more conniving than ignorance....

Does anyone challenge this argument: There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels. However, it is clear that lead is harmful to health and lead fragments were found in the majority of meat samples which have been tested. Lead builds up in body tissues and when woman are pregnant lead that has accumulated in bone and perhaps other tissues is released; that can be more harmful to the fetus or nursing child which are small and developing than it is to an adult.

That is interesting, because this sort of brief is the starting point of a debate or even a trial. But this is why you feel there is no debate; You agree with bullet points 1 and 2, and already provided supportive proof, so it is not your move regarding them. You disagree with bullet points 3 through 6, however since no evidence was given in support those assertions they are merely repetitive refrains. You cannot debate with people who make arguments with poor foundation, but that does not mean they have made a compelling case; rather it means they have not... Basically, the ball is in the Pro-lead court....

Debate the points in this brief: There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels. However, it is clear that lead is harmful to health and lead fragments were found in the majority of meat samples which have been tested. Lead builds up in body tissues and when woman are pregnant lead that has accumulated in bone and perhaps other tissues is released; that can be more harmful to the fetus or nursing child which are small and developing than it is to an adult. The use of lead ammo, either shot shells or bullets does indeed harm wildlife. As with meat samples, gut piles have also been tested for bullet fragments, and many contained lead fragments. Making up some numbers for example: if 200,000 deer are killed a year in NY, by firearms, then in 10 years that is 2 million gut piles. That does not account for wounded, unrecovered deer shot with lead bullets. Some hunters argue lead alternatives are to costly. Some hunters argue lead alternatives damage guns Some hunters argue lead alternatives perform poorly Some hunters claim the conclusions about lead ammunition is part of a bigger conspiracy to restrict hunting or firearms ownership.

This is what I mean....