Curmudgeon

A wind project that is expected to kill eagles must have a Net Conservation Benefit Plan. That means, they must take action to save more eagles (that would have died from other causes) than the project is expected to kill. It doesn't matter how they end up with a net increase in each eagle species. It can be by protecting nests, retrofitting power poles. However, it needs to be acceptable to federal and state wildlife agencies. So far, the agencies have not been willing to accept lead abatement because there hasn't been enough research. That eagles die from eating lead contaminated meat and gut piles is not in doubt. What isn't known is how a non-lead ammunition distribution program will impact eagle survival. The study will attempt to quantify that in an area with a lot of deer and a lot of eagles. If lead ammo is banned for hunting, this possible mitigation method no longer exists. With no other possibilities, DEC cannot (legally) approve projects that would kill Golden Eagles. Sorry I didn't get that it wasn't your text but you did pass on bad information.

Grouse is talking nonsense. Up is down. Black is white. DEC is a partner in a Multi-Year study. Hopefully what will be developed from that study will be a defensible mitigation method to compensate for eagle kills in NYS. It is being funded by millions of dollars from Bluestone Wind - a project that never should have been built because of its impact on eagles. The project is in prime Golden Eagle wintering and migratory habitat. In New York there are ways to mitigate wind impacts on Bald Eagles because they nest here. The same is not true for Golden Eagles. In the west they retrofit power poles to prevent electrocution. That doesn't work in a place with countless perches. If Grouse's fear came to pass, if lead were banned, the study would end up meaningless. There would remain no viable way to compensate for the deaths of Golden Eagles. Hunters in the study area should get a DMP and some free ammo.

I just watched the video Bill posted. I'm glad someone is raising awareness and rejecting the treated seed. I think anyone with a food plot should be paying close attention.

Conclusions? I read other articles and it seems there is actually little or no cost benefit to farmers for most of these treatments. The noted exception is soybeans in some areas of the south. So, apparently this stuff is killing birds, impacting deer and who knows what else, and farmers have to work hard to find untreated seed. It appears it is being used as a add-on to pad the bottom line of big-ag. Thanks Bill for posting something in the turkey section. I've known the stuff is bad for birds but this was the first information I've come across on large mammals. One notable thing I read was that when farmers plant seed, the machinery pushes it under the ground where wildlife would have trouble feeding on it directly. However, food plots are often seeded with broadcast seeders. Even if there is an effort to mix the seed into the soil, some will be available for wildlife, e.g. turkeys, deer, crows, etc.

Has anyone been paying attention to recent research on fawn recruitment and the possible impact of neonic pesticides? Maybe this should be posted in the food plot section but it seems a larger concern than what seeds hunters are planting. Here are links to 2 articles. First - SDSU study shows world’s most common pesticide a danger to deer https://www.sdnewswatch.org/stories/sdsu-study-shows-worlds-most-common-pesticide-a-danger-to-deer/ From the article below: "Almost every reporting state in the Southeast and Northeast has seen a major decline since 2000. Some states have nosedived. For example, in the past 20 years, Georgia dropped from 0.71 to 0.43 fawns per doe. Louisiana declined from 0.74 to 0.44, Maryland fell from 0.74 to 0.37, New Hampshire decreased from 0.7 to 0.36, and New York plummeted to 0.26. In other words, the New York figure of 0.26 means that out of every four adult does, only one would have a fawn." To be accurate, that should probably read only one would have a fawn survive to adulthood or independence. I am not seeing anything that low in my mixed forest-ag habitat. And, I have not idea where those numbers are coming from. There are no citations. A quick web search shows nothing recent from DEC on fawn recruitment. Whitetail Fawn Recruitment Is Declining at an Alarming Rate, and No One’s Quite Sure Why https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/whitetail-fawn-recruitment-declines/ We avoid using treated seed, going out of our way to find untreated. I knew neonics are bad. The bird advocacy groups are constantly trying to get them banned. However, I didn't realize how ubiquitous they are. According to the Outdoor Life article, "approximately 94 percent of U.S. corn and 50 percent of U.S. soybeans are treated with types of neonicotinoids." I also had no idea how they could affect fawn survival at real life exposure levels. Please avoid turning this into a "round up the usual suspects - kill all the coyotes" conversation. We've beaten that dead horse long enough. This is new to me. I'm curious who else is concerned/aware.

What a great series of shots. The fisher is great. Love the song birds. I too get flying squirrels on carcasses. Bravo.

Here's some shots from the bone yard. Note the wing prints in the 30" of fresh snow.

Excellent.

Nice shots. It looks like there is a 4th red-tailed hawk coming in for a landing in the last photo.

I pulled the camera off of last weekend's gut pile. I got 13 scavenging species plus a deer. Scavengers included raven, crows, jays, Downie Woodpecker, Red-bellied Woodpecker, grey and red fox, fisher, minx, raccoons (2), Red-tailed Hawk and Bald Eagle. Here's a sampling. Coons Bald Eagle and American Crows Fisher Grey Fox Minx on left side behind sapling Red Fox Bunch of crows

I butchered a deer this week. Lots of red-tailed hawks, ravens, crows, red fox and a coyote at the bone yard. One of the redtails is the borealis subspecies from the far north. It is about as dark as eastern redtails get. The first 2 photos are the borealis bird. The third photo is a normal eastern redtail. I didn't put a camera on the gut pile because the deer left the property. I don't put cameras on land I don't own.

Do it. It's great fun.

Use this thread for gut pile and bone yard photos this season. I haven't killed a deer yet but I slaughtered 3 lambs this week. I dumped the offal and butchering scraps late on Friday. My good cameras are looking for deer but I had this junky Wildgame Innovations thing someone gave me so I put it on the pile. Within 24 hours 9 eagles had fed along with uncountable ravens and crows. There are at least 6 young bald eagles, a sub-adult bald eagle and a full adult bald eagle. A golden eagle also spent a lot of time feeding. It was all cleaned up in a little over 24 hours. This adult bald eagle was looking up just before a bunch of young balds landed. Golden eagle with young bald on the right. Ravens 6 juvenile bald eagles together.

No I didn't chrono them. I didn't even use a bench rest - just rested it on a plastic saw horse.. If I can hold a 2" group at 100 yards, that is really good. I'm really happy. I've shot only 1 deer over 80 yards in 45 years - out of 60+ animals.

This promotion showed up in my inbox. BTW - I bought some of the Winchester copper ammo at $22.83 at Walmart. I put a few rounds through at 50 yards. It held a 1" group. I usually use Barnes or Federal Trophy Copper. It will be interesting to learn how this stuff works on a deer.

Black powder is a much slower burn. You don't get the fragmentation. That doesn't mean there wasn't a problem. There is little base line data. If you really want to learn, you can find a lot of detailed info in the link below.

I just read this thread. I'm not going to try argue against the outlandish claims. You guys are going to keep doing what you are doing. Ignore the panel discussion. The good thing is, if half of hunters switch to copper, half as many eagles and kids will consume lead. If they can't find copper this year, maybe they will bury their gut pile, or order ammo special through a dealer, or buy it next year. Six years ago when I started on this forum - because someone alerted me to a non-lead ammo discussion here - there were only a handful of us on this site using copper. Most were using it because of improved performance. These days, when these discussions come up, a significant number are using it for both improved performance and environmental reason. Now that the price is pretty much the same as lead, I'm having trouble finding a real controversy? If it is available, and costs the same, who wouldn't use a safer product? Here are some thoughts. On availability - A young woman who I mentored has become a serious hunter. She just bought a new Weatherby Camilla in .243. She is coming out tomorrow to sight it in. I went to Walmart and a Mom and Pop shop yesterday looking for copper ammo. Walmart had Winchester .243 Copper Extreme Point 85 grain at $22.83 a box. I bought some. They also had .270 copper 13o grain at the same $22.83 price and 300 Win Mag copper 150 grain at $26.44. Their ammo case was half empty. The Mom and Pop shop had lots of ammo but little copper. That is normal. They get it for me on request. However, the price was 50% higher than Walmart. The had the same .243 copper I bought for less than $23 was almost $35. On burying gut piles - good idea but who carries a shovel? Anything you can do to minimize visibility from the air is helpful. I do believe that ravens and eagles are starting to associate rifle shots with dinner time. Two years ago I had an eagle circling right overhead as I field dressed a deer. I've also seen ravens around when shots are fired. People concerned with wildlife do not care what bullets you use at the range or for self defense. Dragging HSUS into this discussion is like comparing looters to peaceful protestors - an entirely different thing. HSUS clearly wants to end sport hunting while many advocates of non-lead are hunters. How do you reconcile that?

I was in the Oneonta Wal-Mart today and looked in the ammo case. Winchester. 270 and 30-06 cartridges with solid copper bullets for $22.83 a box. Their stock of everything was low. I asked about copper in other calibers. I was assured they were coming. Last I knew, Wal-Mart did not sell lead-free ammo. Now they do and it's the best price I've seen anywhere.

Wow Rattler. No wonder I'm finding better things to do than spending time here. Have you nothing better to do? It's another winter day. I'll go do some inside work.

It is well known that facts have a liberal bias. That's why you can't trust fact checking sites, Wikipedia either.

Mike, What's the earliest you find morels around here. I never seem to catch the first flush?

Virtually every source cited by Rattler is bias, sometimes to the extreme. In the case of The Daily Caller, they also have problems with facts. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-caller/ Read everything with some scepticism.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1180611 Apparently, rats dependent on food from restaurants are struggling.

The main differences between Rattler and Curmudgeon is availability of time. Rattler's has a remarkable amount to devote to fnding information to back up his world view, and for endless arguing. Curmudgeon's life is the same as always. The virus changes nothing except for seeing the grandkids. I've been social distancing since before most of you were born. I'm barely able to manage the demands on my time. 5 or 10 minutes a day on huntingny.com is a luxury. If I can share something of value or bring someone a smile, those minutes are a success. Another success is disrupting the echo chamber. It's sometimes more of a feedback loop but whatever. Be well

I'm not watching Rattler's propaganda. I offer this from Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_related_to_the_2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic Scroll down to the government section. Mediabiasfactcheck.com considers Wikipedia to be among the "least biased" sources of information. Trump is an unreliable narrator. Believing him is like believing Humbert Humbert. And, who would believe Humbert?