Curmudgeon

Beautiful. Love the crayfish shot.

They aren't starting to push it. They ran almost the exact same thing 6(?) years ago.

Anyone read page 38 of the 2016-17 Hunting Regulations book?

Al - I fixed your mistake. Tom

Larry - How do you paste in a large photo? When I use the attach function, only thumbnails show in the post.

I've been suffering from jealousy since I learned Mrs. Curmudgeon has been encountering bobcat kittens on her morning walks. I have not seen a bobcat in the flesh in over 30 years. This morning, because I was not working, I was here when she returned. She told me she had treed a bunch, unintentionally. I quickly went out and found they were still in the tree, ending a long drought of not seeing wild cats in person. Here are some shots of the 3 young from my point and shoot camera.

This article is from the current issue of The Wildlife Professional, the journal of The Wildlife Society. It was written by former Chief NYS Wildlife Biologist Gordon Batcheller and addresses much of what has been discussed here. Alternative Hunting Ammunitions.pdf

Some of you missed the point entirely. It is bowman's defining vly as the Enemy that makes intelligent conversation impossible, nothing to do with the subject at hand.

With attitudes like that expressed below, it is impossible to have an intelligent reasonable conversation. You wouldn't want to shoot with someone who has already decided he knows everything about you, and none of it is good.

Airedale keeps repeating himself and no one disagrees. However, everyone who butchers deer needs to take equal care. As has been documented, commercial processors - on the whole - are worse at removing lead than hunters who do their own. The animals being not recovered are almost an aside. It isn't the volume of meat. It is the amount of lead. Any hunter doing his/her job is putting the bullet in the chest cavity. That is where most fragmentation occurs. Those organs are left in the field where they are scavenged along with the many lead fragments, sometimes hundreds. I could write hundreds of words on threats to eagles. Actually I just did but that was for a journal not a hunting forum. Just because they are not mentioned here, does not mean other sources of mortality are being ignored. This is a hunting forum and a bullet discussion. Our GPS tracking of eagles was motivated by wind development. Having reviewed many avian impact assessments for wind projects, most that I have seen can be called insufficient. Some are incompetent. Some egregiously bad. The fact that GPS tracked eagles are leading us, and others to sources of lead - and being poisoned by them - has not been a goal of tracking research. One of those eagles - a bald eagle - is in the video. It was tracked to where a commercial processor dumped his trimmings. Another, dead eagle was found near it. A different eagle led us to a pile of pigs dumped by USDA. About 60% of golden eagles in the lower 48 are suffering from at least low level lead poisoning (above 10) in late fall and winter (based on 239 blood samples from wild eagles, 190 on the Rocky Mtn Front, 49 in the Appalachians). I don't have equivalent bald eagle data but they scavenge more than goldens so cannot be expected to be lower. I actually thought this thread was played out a while ago. But if you guys want to continue it, I will continue to state that yes, changing ammo makes a difference. It is an easy and effective way for an individual who cares about wildlife to make a positive difference.

What I am reading in the recent spate of post is, there are big intractable problems, therefore, we should not take simple, effective and inexpensive measures to reduce scavenger lead poisonings, and the amount of lead in venison.

I had an interested observation this morning. Walking up the hill to start work, I came upon a deer with a fawn next to it. The sun was directly behind me so I walked up to about 30 yards without being seen. A second fawn came out on the other side of the deer. Now there is a fawn on each side of the adult and I notice it has antlers. One fawn tries to nurse and is pushed away. The 3 of them walked together behind some stuff. Since I still have no concluded it was a buck, I wanted to watch. My moving around the obstacle spooked them. They ran off together. The antlered deer was slight. It had about 8" of growth on each side that was beginning to split. I know lambs will try to nurse from any sheep. It is possible that is what was going on - the fawns were looking for milk from any possible source.

Red Herring. We are asking people to use copper solids for hunting, hunting only, voluntarily, a couple of rounds per year. If the anti-gun groups had their way, it wouldn't matter what ammo we were talking about. Anti-gun groups will do what anti-gun groups do. Someone I spoke to at the Peregrine Fund told me the only lobbying they have ever done was to keep solid copper bullets from being restricted due to their ability to penetrate body armor.

Never had a problem. The 2 we've recovered were just like the photos - 4 leaf clovers. What brand bullets for the 3 shot group in the lungs and the deer just stood there? From the AZ fish and game dept: "93 percent of Kaibab deer hunters say that non-lead bullets perform as well as or better than lead bullets on game."

Al - Are you volunteering to push this? I don't disagree that you could improve meat quality but eagles are what got me into this, and your solution does nothing for that problem. Mike - The Audubon name is in the public domain so it gets confusing at times. Audubon NY didn't even know about the video until they saw a news item. They probably have google searching daily for anything with the name Audubon in it. If they pay lip service to this issue, we have accomplished something. Yes, there is a policy on their web site but try to find one thing they have actually done. As to whether DEC can be trusted to include non-lead info in educational programs, the rank and file people in the trenches want something done. That's where the WMA idea came from - within the agency. Once you get near the top of the F&W division, politics takes over and this issue is radioactive. My guess is that for Cuomo, the cost benefit calculus doesn't work well on this one. There is a new Chief Biologist who seems well informed and open minded. There will be a new head of the Division soon. The old one is retiring. It will be interesting to see if things change.

A really good point. I would like to find a way to make this work. Finding the money is not the greatest obstacle.

Al - I agree with you on this. You personally control your meat and in doing so can keep most fragments out of the meat and thus reduce lead levels. The last deer shot here with lead ammo was a nice buck quartering towards the hunter. He took out a front shoulder. We buried that part of the deer. Because you are aware, you take those precautions. However, how many people do this? If they are not aware of the fragmentation/lead issue, they will not. Many people send their meat to commercial processors where they are taking their chances. Even those with good shot placement and those who use non-lead bullets may not get their own meat back. This is not a discussion about "lead ammunition". It is a discussion only about lead ammunition used for hunting, and the discussion has focused almost completely on deer hunting, venison and cervid gut piles. Of the ammunition all of you own and use, how many rounds are used to actually kill deer?

I was walking around the frog pond last evening when I noticed a large dead animal in the pasture with the sheep. Its belly was facing me. It was bloated, in the long grass it looked white with its legs pointing up. I thought it was a sheep. It was actually a buck with 2 broken front legs. After several hot days, it was really nasty. It was close by but we couldn't smell it because it was NE - down wind or cross wind - of the house. I had smelled it when I was out on the road but couldn't figure out what it was. This deer must have gotten hit by a car. Amazingly, it got about 30 yards off the road after climbing a bank about 8' in elevation and jumping a 39" sheep fence. Removing it from the pasture was nasty.

erussell - You obviously are a late comer to the conversation. Muzzle loaders and high-powered rifles are apples and oranges. The issue is fragmentation and how far fragments travel in the carcass.

He went after me in #27 too. A lot of the accusations against me are nonsense - e.g. pro-ban, not really a hunter. Much of it is highly emotional, knee jerk stuff. Some is a demonstration of a lack of anything substantive to counter the overwhelming evidence on impacts. How many of them have read the literature, or even watched the video? BTW - Hunter safety instructors can teach about lead vs non-lead. However, it is optional. Some of you act like this issue just came out of nowhere and is being pushed by a few radicals. Mike has been using non-lead for 20 years. I have for a decade. The Peregrine Fund conference on this was in 2008. This is not new. You just have not been paying attention. Knowledge is power. Everyone who hunts should have the knowledge to protect scavengers and assure themselves their food is pure and safe.

Images you may have seen before. Deer carcass X-ray (not field dressed). White spots are metal. CT scan of meat from random samples from the ND Venison Donation Program 2008. The bright spots are metal - mostly lead, some copper. I know some of you consider 8 years ancient history but the point is, the metal gets in the meat, and grinding it mixes it well. Yes, well placed shots reduce the problem. Butchering yourself reduces the problem. Those are best case scenarios, not guarantees. And, they do nothing for scavengers. This is an X-ray of lead fragments inside an eagle. FSW likes to imply I am not a hunter. He cannot seem to accept that someone can be both a hunter and a conservationist. I assure you all, I have killed scores of deer, most recently last fall. FSW is blowing hot air. As far as the charges that I want a ban. I actually think a ban would be harmful. My goal in this discussion is to reduce eagle deaths. The question is: what is the best way to accomplish that? A ban is not. Considering how little the average hunter knows about bullet fragmentation, education is needed. If you haven't watched the video, please do so with an open mind. If anything I post disturbs you, I have provided a warning at the bottom of every post.

Actually, a ban would cause a serious backlash. Non-lead allies in CA fought that ban. They felt they could do what was necessary for the condors by working cooperatively with hunters. They were making great progress. I believe a lawsuit forced the ban and caused battle lines to form. If you read what is going on in the other thread, the technical arguments have become meaningless. The people who don't want us talking about this issue are really just concerned about a ban or regulations. If that wasn't casting a big shadow over the conversation, it might progress a little easier.

1 - What are you talking about? You quote me and immediately go into the waterfowl issue. I never mentioned waterfowl or anything to do with that. 2 - I have spoken to hundreds of hunters on this issue. They are not stupid. However, most - way more than half - have been totally unaware of the lead fragmentation issue. That is empirical knowledge, not a "superiority complex". Most hunters who learn that there is an alternative, one that performs better and lowers risk, at little increased cost switch. 3 - While no one here is advocating any regulation, you, and some of your compatriots are opposing education. You don't want the information out there. 4 - Why are you so angry?

No, it doesn't, and that should change. If you go to a big store and don't get a well informed clerk, you might not be able to figure it out at all. Bizarrely, the non-lead stuff has the lead warnings on it just as if it were lead. It must be some federal rule. All Barnes brand bullets and ammo is copper. They invented the stuff, but not to be lead free. They created a better bullet. The non-lead aspect is just an unintended fringe benefit. This DEC page lists the brand names of non-lead ammo for some major manufacturers - http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/48420.html. I find the Barnes and Federal Trophy Copper the most available. Both have performed excellently. The best selection near me is at Bass Pro in Utica.

Most birds that die are not found, no matter what the cause. There are about 30 peer reviewed papers detailing lead isotopes matching ammunition, the seasonality of poisonings, copper matching bullet jackets in the blood. I have personally tracked an eagle to a pile of dead pigs, killed with lead and left by APHIS. Another eagle was found in its death throws nearby - killed by lead. I have to get to work so I am not going to post 1000 words on this. If you really want to learn, if you aren't just a denier, go to the link in my signature line. You can read and make up your own mind. I just addressed most of your last sentence in the other thread. And, maybe some of us are not "brain dead" but are possibly brain damaged. I don't mean this as an insult to those who disagree because I include myself in that group.