Curmudgeon

Weird. I didn't subscribe. I read it.

I'm wondering if it is even true. That is not a firing offense. It is just an opinion, and hardly controversial.

I am not going to explain why different people use different numbers, or defend another's writing. That was just something that came up immediately in a google search. The point is, the relationship between penetration and mass retention has been common knowledge for decades. If it was important, I could look up the mass loss on a lot of bullets shot into water. 30% is average, The bullet that started this thread probably lost 70-80% of its mass. The OP could weigh it. In other discussions on this forum, people have said that at over 300 yards copper does not expand as well due to the slowing of the bullet. Since I have never shot a deer further than 80 yards, I have no experience with this. However, Larry's photos show an 80 grain bullet that traveled 235 yards, and the penetration and expansion he got. Most people I know who used copper bullets have no fouling problems. A very few do and it seems that there is something specific about the combination of the barrel and bullet. It is not common. My Dad shot a barnes 7-mm 08 - 129 grains I think - into the front of a big doe at about 30 yards. It passed through her neck, part of her spine, a ham, and came to a stop inside the skin on the back of a leg. It was a beautiful bullet. I gave it to him after I skinned his deer. If I had known he was going to toss it, I would have held onto it.

There is a link at the bottom of every one of my posts. There you will find lots of science on toxicity, performance, whatever you want. You just need to take the time to read it. The retention of weight and its effect on penetration has been common knowledge for years. A quick search turned up the info below. All you need to do is look. From http://blog.finandfield.com/hunting/non-lead-ammo/ Copper bullets have been considered premium ammunition in the center-fire rifle caliber’s since the mid 80s, long before lead became an issue. Copper bullets were initially sought after as a hunting round replacement for lead to achieve better penetration and less fragmentation. Several studies show that modern copper bullets have higher velocity, mushroom well at low and high velocity, penetrate deeply, and don’t loose mass. So even though the grain weight of copper ammo is lower it has just as much penetration and wound expansion due to the copper ammunition having little to zero fragmentation while lead will lose as much as 50% of its mass. Lead can also foul your barrel and require more cleaning.

Yes and yes. And maintaining mass is especially important with the smaller calibers. A typical lead core bullet loses 30% of its mass on contact. That makes an 80 grain Barnes more effective than a 100 grain lead soft point.

It looks just like the bullet that killed my deer, even though mine was a Federal Trophy Copper 130 grain out of a .270.

And, realize that these failures result in hundreds of lead fragments in meat and gutpiles.

DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos Statement on Shooting of Environmental Conservation Officer James Davey The following is a statement from New York State Department of Environmental Conservation Commissioner Basil Seggos regarding the shooting of Environmental Conservation Officer James Davey. "On the evening of November 29, 2016, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation Officers James Davey and Lieutenant Liza Bobseine were investigating reports of potential illegal hunting activity in the Town of Gallatin in Columbia County when officer James Davey was shot. Officer Davey underwent extensive surgery at the Mid-Hudson Hospital to repair damage from the gunshot wound and is in the Intensive Care Unit in stable condition. I had the chance to meet Officer Davey's wife Nancy, a Forest Ranger at DEC, and other family members last night who were appreciative of the outpouring of support from the DEC family. "Lieutenant Liza Bobseine who was on patrol with Officer Davey investigating the incident is credited with saving Officer Davey's life for her quick and heroic actions in the field. Lt. Bobseine was able to quickly apply a compress to the wound while calling for support and keeping the suspects under control 1/2 mile into a field. It's clear that if it were not for her actions, officer Davey would not have survived. I commend the two officers for their courage in the line of duty and thank them for their dedicated service. Our thoughts and prayers are with the wounded officer and his family." An investigation led by New York State Police from the Livingston barracks determined that Alan Blanchard, 55, of Gallatin, was responsible for the accidental shooting due to reckless conduct. Blanchard was arrested for Assault in the 2nd degree, a class D felony, arraigned in the Town of Livingston Court, and remanded to the Dutchess County Jail in lieu of no bail. He is scheduled to reappear in the Town of Livingston Court on Dec. 8 at 7 p.m. ECO Davey, 39, is a 12-year veteran of the force, having graduated from the DEC Basic Police Academy in 2005. He is currently assigned to patrol Columbia County. Officer Davey is a Division of Criminal Justice Services-Certified Police Instructor, having recently become a Certified Firearms instructor for the DEC. He is married to a DEC Forest Ranger, Nancy Davey.

That gets him locked up. Give it time.

I finally got some photos from the gut pile, and more from the bone yard. Notice that the red-tailed hawks are not the same bird. One is quite dark on the chest - a plumage that is representative of a far northern race. The bird feeding late may have been a subordinate bird that had to wait. There were a lot of hawk photos on the bone yard. The gut pile had mostly crows and ravens. One hawk showed up. Redtail approaching gutpile Late feeding hawk. Dark redtail, probably from the far north. Much lighter redtail, belly band is almost missing. Ravens at gut pile. Crows at gut pile

I would call DEC law enforcement if I killed a mortally wounded deer. I believe most ECOs would not prosecute someone who committed an act of mercy. I wouldn't move it without a tag.

I haven't had to make such a decision about no tag. One thing I have done is take shots at badly wounded animals that I would not take otherwise- running shots, shots thru thick brush, long shots. What can you do to a wounded deer? Glad you got him.

I just went and dumped the remains from the second deer butchering on the bone pile. I usually hang the carcasses in a tree for the small birds. I did this with the first carcass but dropped the second one in front of the camera due to the current scarcity of deer butchering waste. I want photos. I pulled the card and got these. They aren't dramatic but I like the crow perched on the deer foot I stuck in the snow. I also like that everything isn't megafauna. Chickadees and downy woodpeckers like this stuff too. While I was out there, I uncovered the gut pile with the camera on it. There was a set of tracks approaching, then leaving. It was probably a coyote spooked by the IR flash. It came from downwind of the way the wind blew for 3 days. I had not brought an extra card because I didn't expect anything on that camera. Those photos will have to wait. The second gut pile is a 1/4 off my property - way down hill, almost 3/4 mile from the house. It isn't getting a camera.

My bird feeder doesn't just feed finches and chickadees. Sometimes it feed sharp-shinned and cooper's hawks, goshawks too. This morning I flushed a barred owl out from under it. It was probably grabbing mice. It landed in a tree where I took a couple of photos through a dirty window with my scope and point and shoot camera. Last week there was a screech owl sitting in the sun in the opening of the barn owl nest box. We never did get any barn owls. It has been a good owl year here. Besides these species, we have had great-horned and saw-whet owls this fall. My photography cannot compare to some others on this forum but here are shots of the recent birds.The barred is first, screech second.

Snow on the motion detector?

Unless the camera has a problem, only a cold blooded creature - the same temperature as the environment - would fail to trigger it. Could the batteries be run down?

2 feet with much deeper drifts in North Otsego Cty.

Very nice Wooly. My gutpile in now under 2 feet of snow.

Saturday's gutpile is under about 15" of snow. It may be a few days before I get any photos.

I will pull my 4 cameras that are dedicated to deer late today. The one on the bone yard stays put. I plan to have them ready to place at gut piles as soon as possible. If you photograph your gut piles, please post in the bone yard, gut pile thread. Let's see what shows up.

Mayhoods in Norwich had 2 kinds of Federal non-lead ammo, the Trophy Copper I have been using at $43 a box, and a new product Power Shok Copper at $31. I now have both. I have no plans to do any target shooting with new ammo this late. I will work with it later. Has anyone used this product? Someone told me Cabelas had it for $28 but I no longer buy ammo from them due to the SAFE Act.

Thank you Diplomat. That is an excellent article that should be read by all hunters and fishermen. I have had little time for huntingny.com lately. In spite of my reluctance to participate in the politics forum, I am making this one comment before withdrawing into obscurity again: I consumed a lot of news over the past year and find I have no idea what Trump believes. All I know is he is self serving - someone who needs more money, power and arm candy - and will do whatever he thinks will serve those his self interest. Except for appointing judges to please 2 single interest groups, I have no idea what he will do. The Supreme Court judges are a quid pro quo transaction he cannot avoid. Everything else is a mystery, a guess, a gamble. Be prepared to be surprised, and disappointed.

Some more recent photos of what is checking out the bones. Next week I will move the cameras to some gut piles. I encourage you all to do the same.

A lot of people seem to be dying. Robert Vaughn, Leonard Cohen and now Leon Russell. Hmmm.

We built a permanent stand over 20 years ago with CCA lumber for my father. He is now in his 80s and still hunts out of it. He has killed 2 deer each of the past 2 years. Not bad for an octogenarian. The floor is 2 X 4s. It has chip board screens that keep him from being seen, and also protect from prevailing winds. Because he has arthritis in his neck, it now has a convex mirror mounted to the rail which can be seen in the photo. He can see deer behind him without turning around. I have a 14' aluminum extension ladder painted camo that goes up on the right side a few weeks before hunting commences.