Padre86

So just to be clear then, you're not hunting in Letchworth SP itself, but on private land close by, correct? If that is the case, I'm not really certain why you're telling me that I have it easy with accessible public land. If I follow you correctly, you're not hunting on state land, but rather private land, which as others have pointed out is an apple to oranges comparison. And I still don't get why you drive 3 hours or so downstate to go hunt when you have hundreds of acres of private land and millions of acres of public land right within or next to your home county. Yes, I get it that the western NY bucks might be a little bigger than the Northern Zone ones, but still a deer is a deer...I wouldn't care too much about rack size if I were in your shoes. There is plenty of farmland bordering both Tug Hill and the ADK's where you could find decent-sized deer if that's what you're looking for.

Letchworth is easily an hour from Rochester, maybe less if you live in the southern suburbs. Rattlesnake is a bit more than that. I know shotgun, archery and muzzleloading are allowed in Letchworth, but I haven't spent much time scouting that area, so I couldn't tell you what it's deer scene is like. And you have a hunting camp at Letchworth that you spend 5 weeks at? The camp is actually within the state park? I had no idea they allowed that. Do you hunt in the gorge along the river or on the high ground? Edit: And seriously? Why are you talking about how you "wish" you could live closer to Letchworth SP when Tug Hill, the Adirondacks and all kinds of other state lands are literally right at your doorstep? You live in Jefferson County, right?

I'm heading up to the ADK's for a weekend or two this coming season for both bear and deer (firearm season). There is plenty of public land up there, a lot of it easily accessible....the density of game, especially deer, just isn't as high as other parts of NY. It's almost an inverse of the problem we have in western NY, where there are plenty of deer, just not a lot of public lands to access them by. But in general, I agree with what you're saying. The rural areas south of Rochester are teeming with deer; there just isn't much, if anything, in the form of public land to access them, at least not in Monroe.

In all honesty Grow, weekday hunting is going to be a very likely approach for me. I am inclined to agree that the "traffic" out there will be a lot less compared to the weekends. And yes I agree scouting is important, for any hunter. That said, weekday hunting of those areas will entail 1-1.5 hour commutes, one way. This means I need to take off from work (despite being a "have-not," I do have an 8-5 job ). Again, I'm not trying to earn sympathy from anyone. But I do maintain that the access and logistics behind hunting for some people living in Rochester and Buffalo isn't so simple and easy as some here make it out to be. On that note, I acknowledge that my point has been thoroughly beaten to death and the floor is yours...

You're welcome to join me for a hunt in Carlton Hill this coming fall. As well, I'd be more than happy to show you around Rochester so you can see for yourself where the deer have really started to congregate. Corporate lands and college campuses are simply examples of places where the excess deer end up when their #'s get out of control in the rural areas and municipal parks. A lot of these rural, and even some suburban, areas, both private and public land, would be perfectly suited to bow-hunting if the local towns were open to it.

This just reinforces what I've suspected all along...you have no on-the-ground knowledge of many of these areas you keep referencing. State and private college lands? Those lands account for a minuscule percentage of the total land in Monroe. City-owned vacant lots? You really think there is a deer overpopulation in those areas? And pay sharpshooters? What sharpshooters? You mean DEC officers? I highly doubt they'd use firearms in Rochester, or its suburbs, to cull deer #'s, if they were to do any culling at all. There is a deer population problem starting to develop in Monroe, but the vacant city lots or college campuses aren't the epicenter of that problem. It's places like Mendon Ponds and other municipal parks, where hunting is prohibited, and the suburban and still-existing farm areas where the deer have really started to sprout up. And issuing special permits for bow-hunting would no doubt put a serious dent in the problem, but there is a lot of political redtape around such initiatives. As I've said before Grow, you really owe it to yourself to get out and actually walk these places on foot before you make statements like these. And my offer to take you out hunting on public land still stands. It's anywhere from an 1-1.5 hours drive from my place to the nearest piece of land that I can hunt with a firearm. I make that drive 5-6 times every hunting season without complaint; it is what it is. But this rosy picture you've tried to paint about how it easy and accessible public land hunting is for western New Yorkers is quite separated from reality.

But I can understand in your frustration over the real reasons you feel private land owners should open their lands to strangers to hunt...isn't actually conservation...but more for a better quality hunt for your self. You really did make that clear the more you typed. You've made the implication, numerous times, that my posts are advocating that landowners be forced to open up their lands to other hunters. In fact, the post above contains that very implication. And you've mentioned previously that you think myself, and several others expressing similar ideas, are Democrats who want want others have, as seen below: So, I may have paraphrased, but you've certainly expressed these ideas in previous posts.

Really? Mr. Opinion himself takes umbrage to someone else expressing an opinion? And what is with this professional victim-hood? I'm not blaming you for anything. I'm expressing the opinion that there are better, more civil ways to engage in this type of discussion versus what you have been doing. Your accusations that "whining Democrats" are somehow conspiring to steal your land, or gain access to it, has totally derailed this thread from its original intent. What is the CPR program? And how is that and the pheasant-rearing program related to this conversation?

This thread has turned into the McCarthyism of the hunting community, in large part thanks to your antagonistic responses. No one is demanding that landowners open up their land to other hunters. No one is even asking you specifically for permission to hunt your land. The only detailed suggestions I've seen made are that we discuss possible government and free-market initiatives to incentivize land sharing....and even mentioning that we've had someone spew some BS about how that is stealing money from the taxpayer. We already spends millions of taxpayer $ on a wide variety of conservation efforts and wildlife management. There should be nothing controversial about this topic...but somehow the outrage and name-calling has persisted throughout this thread.

Who here is advocating for that?

Grow, fine, forget what I said about your property specifically; but others on here have said quite explicitly that they don't allow many others to hunt their lands. And you're very conveniently ignoring the main point I was making: private land, on the whole, doesn't have nearly the same level of hunting pressure that public land does in western and central NY. The deer know this. If you'd like to join me for a hunt in Carlton Hill after the first day of gun season, I'd be more than happy to show you what I mean.

Grow, you and a few others on here have freely admitted that you don't let many hunters onto your property, if any at all: I'm not knocking any of these posters for keeping their property exclusive or only allowing a select few acquaintances to hunt it. But there is no question that there is a huge difference between the hunting pressure deer face on public land and on private land when it comes to western and central NY.

Conservation is very much at the heart of what I brought up. When you have a whole bunch of hunting activity focused on select pieces of public land, while you have large swaths of private land that see minimal hunting, or in some cases none at all, you have an inherently imbalanced approach to managing the deer herd on a state-wide level. The post of mine you brought up merely shows that public-land hunting isn't as easy and practical as you make it out to be. I've been saying from very early on though, that deer need to be managed with the bigger picture in mind or else we will have problems. I'm pretty sure the OP made that point as well.

Hmmm, sounds very similar to something I've said previously. There are some fairly common-sense, low-impact measures the state could adopt to work through this issue. And I suspect most, if not all, hunters would be perfectly okay with those measures. The accusations, made by some here, of Democrat-inspired attempts to subvert the freedoms of private landowners really doesn't add much to the conversation.

I don't know where you hunt, but it's been crowded enough during the season at places like Carlton Hill and High Tor. And after the first day of gun season, a lot of game do start to disperse from those public land parcels.

You're hopeless Grow....if conservative traditions, including hunting, become marginalized in this state, you'll have your own stubborn self, and like-minded compatriots, to thank. And for the nth time, I'm not advocating for forcing landowners to share their land with other hunters, and I don't think the OP was either. You and a few others on this thread keep repeating phrases like "free-lunchers" and "whiners" and "hunting on the shoulders of others." I do support free-market and government initiatives to incentivize sharing of private land; if that makes me a "free-luncher" then you and I have absolutely nothing to agree on here. Edit: also, I never used the phrase "have and have not's."

Grow, why are you being so divisive? You truly believe that anyone on this site who disagrees with you is a Democrat? NY has added some new public land in recent years, but the overall amount of public land in western and central NY is very still very small in relation to the amount of private land, and come hunting season it is definitely very crowded in places like High Tor and Carlton Hill and Rattlesnake Hill. Outside of the Adirondacks, there isn't a whole lot of room to accommodate all or even most of the hunters who don't own land themselves...and this is a shame, because there is more than enough deer for everyone to hunt in western and central NY. The problem is that many people don't have a way to access them. Land access is a huge issue in this state. Grow, you can disagree and rant all you want against that statement, but there are many hunters who will appreciate the issue...and despite your accusations, they're not all Democrats. Edit: I couldn't add text to my previous post for some reason. Mods, feel free to add this to that one. And wow Grow, only took you a few minutes to respond; are you on post-alert 24/7?

You need to get out and go walk those lands when hunting season starts instead of just looking at a map. Yes there is some public land to hunt in western NY, but there isn't a lot of it. All of the state lands, multiple use areas and national forests in western NY are teeming with hunters once the season starts....to the point where you're bumping into more hunters than you are game. Much of the game definitely becomes wise in those areas and heads off to other pieces of land, usually private, where they face far less hunting pressure. And you have to be extremely aware and careful of where you go...I can't even recall how many times I've walked down trails and right into the line-of-fire of other hunters who were still-hunting. Is it possible to hunt public land in western NY? Yes. But it definitely isn't a great environment for newcomer, or even a veteran, to hunt in year-after-year.

You're being more than a bit unrealistic here. No they can't. And there are some very simple metrics to back that up. I'm talking about all people 18-35, not just middle class America or people already living/working in the rural counties. And even if everyone could afford to buy their own hunting lands, there wouldn't be enough available land to accommodate every person within that demographic, let alone every hunter in NY. Kudos to you for setting a goal for yourself and working your butt off to accomplish it, but not everyone is that secure financially that they can buy, maintain and pay taxes for a whole separate piece of property set aside for hunting. And preaching that any and all hunters wanting access need to man up and go buy their own land is a piss poor way to welcome and encourage prospective hunters. As I've said before, the viability of hunting in the future will depend greatly on how we as hunters welcome, train and mentor the next generation. The attitudes I've seen displayed here don't give me high hopes.

That's great for you, but the key word I used was "most." And I'll stand by what I said. "Most" people of that age bracket can't afford to buy their own land for hunting. I grew up in Rochester, NY and I certainly didn't come from a hunting family. I got interested in hunting well after college, and with the exception of a little bit of help from 1 distant relative, I've been largely self-taught. From the outside looking in, the biggest deterrent for new hunters, besides learning how to hunt, is finding a place to hunt. If people on this thread want to pretend that isn't an issue and dismiss any dissenting opinions as selfish whining, so be it. But they're hurting NY's hunting community in the long run.

That whole paragraph, and your preceding posts, sure do convey a lot of spite and anger from the way I read them. But to briefly address the entirety of your concerns: a) No one is asking for free access to private land nor mandatory sharing of private land. But land access is undeniably a big issue in this state for hunters, especially for the younger ones. We need to find ways to promote access, whether it be via conservation easements, paying for access to private land, or creating more public land. I'd be interested in hearing any specific ideas you have on this issue. "Saving up your money" sounds great in concept, but doesn't really apply to the 18-35 demographic that we need to be targeting and passing on the hunting baton to. Most people of that age bracket have nowhere near the income required to go and buy their own land. b ) Mature forests are not the biggest issue, at least in regards to private land, resulting in poor regeneration. Over browsing by a rising deer population is a bigger problem in parts of central and western NY, because many, though not all, landowners aren't properly managing the wildlife on their properties (either only hunting for bucks or not hunting at all). FWIW, I haven't seen any DEC studies properly document the forest regeneration of all of NY's land, but the DEC has rated large chunks of land in some surveys. Those surveys found that that largely untouched forests, e.g. the Adirondacks and Tug Hill, have been doing just fine in terms of forest regeneration, despite the lack of regular logging. Some good DEC sources discussing these topics: DEC 2012-2016 Deer Management Plan 2015 Deer Harvest Report

If there is one post in this entire thread that could effectively summarize what is wrong with hunting in New York, it is this one above. Too many hunters in this state are in it for themselves or for their good ole boy network of hunting buddies...and not enough are looking out for the hunting community as a whole. I'll reiterate what I've always said: private land is private and the owner can be as selective as he/she wants in terms of who is allowed to hunt it. No one is showing disdain for landowners growalot, nor is anyone advocating that we force landowners to accept strangers onto their lands. But there is a problem with deer overpopulation and poor forest regeneration in parts of this state, which the DEC has documented; most of it to do with too many buck being taken and not enough doe. And land access is a huge hurdle for many new and prospective hunters to overcome in this state. If we hope to tackle either of those issues, we, as a hunting community, need to come up with solutions. Growalot, if you want to sell your land to developers, like I said, that's your choice and no one is going to dispute that. But the spite and outright anger you have towards non-landowners is not helping NY's hunting situation.

Listen, I get that a landowner has the absolute freedom to choose who does and does not hunt on his land...and I would never argue to take that away. But if individual landowners are only focused on their own hunting goals, are they still working towards the common goal of keeping the deer population, as a whole, healthy and stable? If you want to seal off your land from any and all strangers, that's your prerogative....just don't complain when the deer population starts to get out of whack. That aside, land access is the number one issue deterring most new hunters from really getting involved in this activity. With the exception of the Adirondacks, which is a real tough area to hunt, there isn't a lot of public land for new people to get their feet wet on. Sooner or later, us older farts are going to die off. If we want the next generation to keep hunting viable, culturally and legislatively, we need to find ways to get more people out hunting...there isn't enough public land in western and central NY to accommodate everyone. Edit: And I can totally appreciate why some landowners are skeptical of letting total strangers onto their property...it only takes a few ******* to really ruin it for everyone. All the same, if we are all only focused on our individual goals, we're going to have a tough time keeping hunting traditions alive going into the future.

See, I don't get this mentality. Don't get me wrong, I understand private land is just that....private. But if you're a landowner who at least understands the value of properly managing local animal populations, why would you not be in favor of allowing other hunters onto your land to help manage said populations (for payment or for free)? And if the landowner can't or won't hunt anymore, why wouldn't he/she be in favor of allowing someone else to do that hunting? FWIW, there is a deer population issue in western and central NY, most of it to do with too many bucks being taken and not enough does.