Padre86

Actually, a little known fact is that Ontario, CA of all places allows hunters to use dogs for deer and even Moose in some areas, in addition to the regular black bear and coyote. I don't know how many there are up there, but I've heard of at least a few deer hunting camps that run dogs on deer. I've even heard of members at a houndsmen forum using them to find and bay Moose (similar to how the Nordic hunters do). If you spend any amount of time up there, you'd see that the country is well-suited to such methods. Lots and lots of remote, expansive wilderness, often times with very dense vegetation and brush and few trails. You could walk into this stuff and not even know that a deer was standing 20ft from you. Reminds me of some of the new growth/forest areas I've been through up in the Adirondacks and Tug Hill regions. I know the deer hunting with dogs issue has caused some controversy in some of the southern states. As long as the handlers/hunters are able to keep good tabs on their dogs and don't interfere with other hunters, I don't have a problem with such methods. Heck, I'd do that kind of hunt myself, especially in some of these densely vegetated areas I've seen up north.

Steve Rinella relayed a story, I think on one of his podcasts about lion hunting with dogs. In the story he was hunting deer with an acquaintance from what he described as a very cush and comfortable tree stand. It was heated, with lighting, rolling chairs and windows that were perfectly set up to shoot down pre-established shooting lanes containing food plots. It sounded more like a treehouse than a stand honestly. Rinella mentioned to his acquaintance how he had recently gone lion hunting with a houndsmen; his acquaintance replied that he didn't see the challenge (I'm paraphrasing here) in that type of hunting, literally as he was rolling around on his chair to check for deer at his different shooting stations. I thought it was funny, but Rinella's point I believe was to show that the idea of "fair chase" and "challenge" is often times subjective and varies from one hunter to the next. I'll tree-stand hunt over food plots or farmlands. It's not my favorite way to hunt, but I'll do it, especially if I'm looking to add some extra meat to the freezer. I personally don't care if others use that as their primary method of hunting and I don't care how extravagant their setup's get. I will say it is a little corny the way some hunting shows go after high-fence trophy animals or animals that have been artificially fed and prepped over successive years and then display those animals as if they are these reclusive, monster, once-in-a-lifetime catches. I think that is a bit canned and fake, purely from a TV standpoint, which is why I don't like many of the hunting shows I see on TV.

What was so insulting about what he said? I'm inclined to agree in that 200-300 yard shots just aren't all that common up there. I actually spent a good bit of time this past summer looking for open areas with those kinds of distances so I could do some target shooting. I only came up with 2 spots, only one of which had a suitable backstop. Short of shooting over a lake or off a mountain top, the ADK's just don't have much in the way of open areas where 150+ yd shots are practical or needed. I know some hunters up there who forgo scopes, because they know the shooting distance will be short. It's just the way hunting is up there.

I get what you're saying. Like I said, I think there are more optimal cartridges for such uses, but you're right in that a hunter can keep a reasonable distance and focus on shot placement to make something like a 7mm-08 work for bigger game.

I vehemently disagree with the first part of that statement, as would most ballistics experts and hunting guides. But I'll leave it at that since I don't think this conversation will go anywhere productive.

Well no doubt this is a highly subjective topic. But there is definitely a general consensus among most guides and outfitters on which cartridges are preferred for certain big game. Could a well-practiced hunter make a good, clean killing shot using that cartridge on a brown bear or moose at the right distance? Maybe, under the right conditions. Would that cartridge be his/her first choice? I'd say probably not, but again that is subjective. Bullet construction is important and has evolved over the years. But momentum and energy are still very important for making effective and ethical killing shots. The 7mm-08 is down on both of those when compared to some of the more traditional big 'big-game' cartridges.

I would hesitate. The 7mm-08's loads lack the mass and the energy as some of the cartridges traditionally used for elk and moose. Not saying that you can't use 7mm-08 for such game (shot placement can make all the difference), but I think it's fair to say that there are more optimal cartridges for such applications. Heck, I've heard of hunting guides in Alaska using 9mm to kill brown bear in self-defense. It can be done, but I don't think anyone will argue that 9mm is the optimal pistol cartridge for such uses. 7mm-08 certainly is a great deer cartridge, but for bigger game, especially at long distances, I think other cartridges, like some of the magnums, really start to outshine it.

I suppose that depends on what game you're trying to take. If all you're looking for is a deer rifle, then yes the 7mm-08 should work well. Like some of the 6mm based cartridges, it is known for its flatter trajectory relative to the more traditional .308 and .30-06. IMHO, you won't really notice or need the flatter trajectory for typical ADK hunting. Most realistic shots will be at or under 100 yards (I'm not saying you won't ever go out further than that, rather I'm saying longer shots aren't likely due to the terrain). For anything 300 yards and within, .308 and .30-06 perform very well in terms of trajectory, and they do allow you to use heavier loads to take down bigger game (elk, bear, even Moose depending on the range). Just like with cars, everyone has their favorite brand. I prefer to have a cartridge that offers good all-around utility and is readily available (either in fully assembled rounds or for reloading), so I use a .308 rifle. There are other cartridges that will get the job done up there. You just have to figure out what your priorities are: extreme long range performance; big-game loads; availability; ect.

Are you asking if I think it is a good cartridge?

Anywhere you can legally hunt with a shotgun, you should be able to go out, set up a target, and pattern it (barring any areas that specifically prohibit target shooting). I can't speak for downstate, but upstate and western NY are relatively liberal with target shooting and what not. NY state land, by default, is open to target shooting. There are certain rules to be aware of and certain areas do specifically prohibit target shooting (usually with signage or bulletins).

In my experience, 190-240 yard shots aren't all that common up there, even in the more open mature forests.

What open areas are there in the Adirondacks? Except for lakes and blow-down, I haven't encountered many clearings up there.

Are you out of the hunting camp near Raven Lake (on Necessary Dam Road)?

^This. I have no problem buying and driving a more eco-friendly vehicle. But I don't want to pay an arm and a leg. I don't want to take it into the shop every year to repair its electronics. And I don't want the batteries to lose their range or stop working all together when the weather gets cold. I think the current electronic offerings are still a long ways off from being true replacements for internal combustion engines.

I'm sure the hunters and ranchers out west appreciate these kinds of hunters...keeps the pressure off their livestock.

The guy that put together that vidoe, Tony Tebbe, is frequent poster over at predator masters. I've heard he has quite a bit of experience with running decoy dogs, so I doubt he lost a dog, and if he did, I doubt he would show that on a video. What part of the video are you referring to?

Kind of reminds me of some pictures and video's I've seen of decoy dog hunters from out west: Some of those dogs really like to provoke the coyote, which I guess is the whole point of using a decoy dog. I suppose just like hunting with hounds, you've got to strike a good balance between risk and reward.

I've seen a few redbones and walkers in action. I really want to see some plotts at work; I've heard a lot of good things about them.

What kind of hounds were you hunting with?

That doesn't make any sense. I read this HSUS article talking about how hunting mountain lions was very easy and all you basically do is get out of your pickup walk a few dozen yards and go shoot a poor, innocent kitty cat out of a tree. They didn't say anything about walking 15 miles or getting caught out in the dark, and of course we all know that HSUS never lies about or misrepresents hunters....hmm, something isn't adding up.

Like I said earlier, I think there are different meanings behind the word "sport." From Merrriam Webster: and and for sportsman, which is normally attributed to hunters and anglers: I don't consider hunting to be a sport in the same sense that football and soccer are. But the activity of hunting, as it is conducted in modern times, certainly meets the definition of a sport in the broad sense. And lawful and ethical hunters certainly meet the definition of sportsmen. Our ancestors didn't hunt for sport, they hunted for survival, except for the nobility of course. Nowadays, hardly anyone hunts because they need the food; most people who hunt do so because they want to challenge themselves by searching for and killing an animal in the wild (some food or fur is a nice bonus)...it's a conscious choice to engage in this recreational activity, the key words being "choice" and "recreational" as hunters of years past usually didn't have those luxuries; if they didn't hunt they would starve. I don't think people should shy away from that definition either. The inherent recreational aspect to hunting doesn't deprive it of moral or scientific credibility.

It definitely is a sport, maybe not in the traditional sense of other activities (football, tennis, baseball). Hunting competitions aside, the hunter isn't competing against another team or looking to get a high score from a judge. The average hunter, IMHO, is out there to overcome challenges and find success, either as an individual or as part of a group. Maybe if we were talking about hunters of years past, I wouldn't consider them sportsmen since their hunts were mostly for survival. But nowadays, there are very few people who hunt because they need a source of food; just about everyone has the ability to go to a local supermarket and pick up meat. I hunt because there is something that appeals to me about going into the woods and working to find and kill an animal. From a personal perspective, there is nothing that necessitates hunting; it's a pastime, or sport, that I enjoy participating in. As well it's one that brings benefit to the local environment in various ways.

Looks like those guys were successful.

I'm amazed by how much negativity there are in some of these posts, despite the fact the original post started off with a relatively positive note. I think some people like to vilify houndsmen, but the way I see it, there are good and bad individuals in pretty much every form of hunting. I think some people have had a few bad experiences with houndsmen and those experiences have informed their opinion on hound hunting in general. OP, I've met up with a group of houndsmen that regularly hunts the Finger Lakes area; I'm not sure if this is the same group as the one that you interacted with. But I do know that this group only hunted areas that were either open to public hunting or areas where they had permission. And they were very diligent about recalling their dogs if they're were heading for private land or areas that were otherwise off limits. I was actually quite impressed with the coordination they had with one another, not only when it came to posting up hunters along the coyote's likely route, but also when it came to managing and keeping tabs on the dogs. The few times I've been out with them, I've never seen a dog stray into off limits areas. Now, I'm sure that happens from time to time, regardless of how careful you are. But that is a similar concern for bowhunters or gun hunters with a wounded animal running off into private land. You do the best you can to mitigate that risk, but if it happens, you contact the landowner and get permission to retrieve. I certainly never saw any houndsmen purposely release their dogs into posted property (where they lacked permission). Maybe there are unethical houndsmen out there who do that sort of thing, but I don't think they represent the overall houndsmen community. I'd recommend anyone who has the slightest amount of interest to go to KC Hounds or another hound hunting website and go link up with some of these guys and gals. The ones I've met so far are good people and have been very welcoming of those who are new to this type of hunting. What was so dangerous about it? You referring to the road crossings? I agree coyote hunting with hounds takes a lot of work and coordination, but I think as long as you know the local terrain and have hunters positioned appropriately, you have a decent chance of getting one. The last few times I've been out, we've come away with 1-2 on each outing....granted, the group I was with knew the area very well and seemed to have a good idea of where the coyotes liked to go. This group also had at least one person with a GPS tracker in the truck so that if the dogs were heading for a main road or into another block of woods, they could intercept them.

There are groups of houndsmen throughout NY who hunt coyotes, and other game, with hounds. The dogs usually have GPS collars on them (the GPS determines the dog's location which is then sent by radio to a hunter's handheld GPS unit). I've only done a few hunts with dogs so far, but generally the way it works is the hunters will scan roads and trails for tracks. When they find some that look fresh, they let a dog out to sniff it and if it indicates the track is good, a few more dogs are put out. Generally-speaking, there will be hunters sitting or walking along trails that bound in the area where the dogs are hunting; the idea is if the coyote runs by while evading the hounds, the hunter will get a shot off to kill it (12 gauge buckshot seems to be the preferred method for a fast-moving coyote). I know how certain perceptions exist about such hunts being "easy," but the fact is these hunts require a lot of work and coordination. You've got to have good knowledge of the terrain you're hunting. You need to place hunters in the right spots to get good shots on the coyote. You need to know which conditions are and aren't conducive to tracking. You've got to know about how these dogs work and what they're indicating by their body language and howls. There is a lot of movement by truck, but you're constantly hopping out and walking a lot to get to good positions or to retrieve hounds and you're frequently re-positioning yourself as the hunt progresses. It's a surprisingly active form of hunting, and it can be very challenging if you don't have some more experienced houndsmen to learn from. And the chase is hard from all perspectives; you can spend hours setting up and then supervising the hunt, only to find out that the coyote has long vacated the area you're hunting or that the hounds got confused by other tracks. The chase can go on for many miles as the coyote has a lot of endurance and tries to circle back and goes into challenging terrain. It's a real rush to hear those hounds as they bring the chase closer to your position, and it's awesome when everything comes together and you get a good shot on a coyote. This is quite different from how the decoy hunters work, but still it's fun in it's own right, and very addicting if you're into hunting with dogs.