Padre86

I thought I had mentioned that in my original post, but yes, to clarify, I'm not intending to ask for permission until after the deer season ends.

Anyone in western NY (mostly looking at the Finger Lakes Region, but other western counties as well), looking for assistance in removing coyotes from their property? I know they're more than abundant in this part of the state, so if anyone is willing to let a hunter come onto their property to take a few out of the equation, let me know. I'd be more than happy to have a phone call and make an introduction with any interested parties, as I know how letting a stranger hunt your lands can be a daunting issue. As well, I realize that deer season is just around the corner, so I'm not expecting to get permission anytime soon. Please feel free to PM me or respond in this thread if you're interested.

I've searched through the DEC regs, but have never been able to find anything on this specific issue. Is there a limit to the # of rounds you can load in your shotgun while out hunting (outside of waterfowl hunting, which comes under Federal regs if I recall correctly). For example if I wanted to hunt small game or deer with a shotgun, is there a restriction on how many rounds I can have in the magazine tube? I know for semi-auto's, the limit is 6. I've never seen anything listed for pump-actions though.

Getting off topic, I know, but I had heard that a heavier grain bullet (for .308 at least) was needed for black bear due to the fat and muscle on their bodies. I normally use 150gr SP's for deer, though I realize that some here might consider that somewhat of an overkill. Are 150gr's, lead or copper, sufficient for taking black bears in upstate NY? Perusing Federal's website, they were recommending bullets ranging from 160gr to 180gr, depending on the range.

So if I were planning on using 180gr (.308) lead bullets to take something like a black bear, a 150gr copper bullet should suffice as an alternative? And then does that mean if I've been using 150gr SP lead bullets for deer, I would be good to use something like a 120gr copper bullet (not sure if anyone makes something like that)?

I just picked up some copper 150 gr Hunting rounds from Federal. I'll see how they do at the range later this week. I would like to find some heavier bullets to test out as well. Anyone know what the upper weight limit is for .308 copper rounds?

Great point on controlling for lead from extensive target shooting! As others have noted, your lead levels can also go up from a variety of other activities. Also, your last comment (in bold) pretty much captures how most members of this forum seem to feel about this topic: if you want to hunt with lead-free ammo, fine and you're probably not doing any harm (to yourself or the environment). If you want to hunt with cheaper, lead bullets, that's fine too; just use some common sense and do a proper butchering of your meat, and you'll more than likely be fine as well (most hunters have been doing this for quite some time now and there haven't been any widespread health issues as a result). People should be free to chose which bullet type they want to shoot and hunt with. Now that the horse has been beaten several times over, I'm wondering when the mods will shut down this thread; it's starting to turn into a broken record.

.308 w/ CRPF Winchester Model 70 type action. Great rifle and very accurate. Definitely more of a tree-stand rifle than it is a mountain/back country rifle....but I'm hoping to add another lightweight bolt-action to my collection here in the near future.

Maybe... I remember hearing about a similar issue in some suburban, upscale neighborhood in Martha's Vineyard; the deer were plentiful, but the local homeowners were against any sort of hunting (and the local laws reflected that sentiment). Then the deer got so plentiful that they started transmitting diseases and ticks and tore into soccer mom's gardens....and a limited season was implemented. I think there is a tipping point, even for the most ardent of anti's...we just haven't gotten there yet.

OP, figure out what kind of hunting you want to do and where you want to do it. If you're stand hunting in some farmer's field, the rifle weight won't matter as much. So a standard rifle such suffice (something like a 20" barrel with a 3-9 scope). If you're going to be hoofing it up and down Adirondack-style terrain, you'll want to go as light as possible...perhaps something like the Ruger Gunsite you mentioned, of either the 18" or 16" variety and maybe forgo the scope and use open sights (that's a personal preference issue). Whatever rifle you end up getting, make sure you get proficient with it.

They need to at least open a small window for bow hunting...the deer #'s in that area are getting out of control due to lack of hunting pressure. I'm sure they'll allow it at some point, but there is going to be a lot of grief and anger from some of the park's visitors.

So I just picked up my big game and turkey tags at the local town hall. Is there a special permit you need for early bear season, or does the basic big game license allow for that? Any restrictions on weapons used?

Right, so 'regional police departments' is a reference book I can go look up somewhere to verify these "sightings?" And the Ontario Puma Foundation is considered a neutral, unbiased source? It seems to me they are just jumping at the bit as much as you are to declare that cougars are everywhere. Your other source, the paper by Rosatte seems to be a bit more common-sense (as is usually the case with people who follow the scientific evidence to reach a conclusion rather twist the evidence to conform to their pre-formed narrative). The author even stated that the cougar indications being found in Ontario were likely a result of a combination of immigrant cougars, escapees from captivity and native individuals. And he also said that, He's basically saying that increased sightings are not necessarily indicative of increasing cougar range, most especially because not all "sightings" are accurate. He even called out your rock-solid Ontario Puma Foundation as being part of the problem of over-hyping and over-exaggerating cougar sightings. So maybe you should take the time to read this and other studies before making claims that there is a breeding population in Virginia and that cougars are about to start coming over the border en masse from Canada.

That map you provided came from where exactly? I know it was in the website that you linked, but where did the website get it from? Do you have a source for that? Or are you just relying on it, without really caring about its origins and credibility? Kind of like your unsubstantiated claim that there is breeding population of cougars in Virginia...anyone else see a pattern developing here? The map's listed sightings don't exactly match the map provided in the study done by Rosatte, which at least has some semblance of being a peer-reviewed, academic paper. Moreover, the map seems to be counting a wide variety of supposed sign to be indications of Cougars: sightings, tracks, scat, and vocalization....really? Vocalizations are now definitive signs of Cougar presence? How is that even being verified, especially considering the random Joe's who were calling and reporting these so-called "sightings?" So, yes, I have have a serious doubt towards that map's validity. It's lists vague sources like: a 3rd party "Puma" organization and regional police departments, which makes it difficult for others to spot-check and verify these "sightings." Moreover, having driven through Ontario, CA (CA also stands for Canada), the heavy concentration of cougar sightings in southern Ontario versus the north, seems illogical, given that southern Ontario has more roads, towns, suburban sprawl versus the northern part...I don't find it unreasonable to believe that there are cougars in the remote areas, like Algonquin and Lake Superior Provincial Parks, and all the surrounding crown land...but I do have a hard time believing that cougars are in abundance in the Toronto and Niagara Falls area, at least to the extent that this map is suggesting that they are. And how many of these "sightings" are being reported by actual hunters versus confused and naive wildlife enthusiasts? Ontario is a big hunting province; if there was much of a cougar presence around the Toronto area, you'd think there'd be a lot more hunters getting pictures, bringing in scat samples, ect. Again, not saying there aren't any transients moving through that area, but a resident, breedin population seems unlikely.

One link is from a website I've never even heard of. The other link is a study talking about cougar presence in Onatario, CA, which is not only feasible but also readily acknowledged by many wildlife experts to be likely cougar habitat due to the remote nature of much of that province. Cougars re-establishing themselves in NY and parts of the eastern US is a whole other matter...the simple fact is the eastern US just doesn't have the expansive, remote wilderness tracts that exists out west or up north in Canada (with a few exceptions). Cougars coming into the east, have a lot more roads, farms, suburban sprawl to deal with, and with that, there is a much greater potential for conflict with humans. Again, I'm not saying that cougars won't ever make their way back into the eastern US....I just don't think that process will happen as quickly as you seem to want it to. Also, I again ask you: what is your proof that there is a breeding population of cougars in Virginia?

Lol....I knew it was only a matter of time before this "cougar" thread went in a whole other direction. I should've stuck to using "mountain lion," to avoid the confusion. All the same, never take your eyes off a cougar...when they latch onto you, it's hard to shake them off.

So an attack by an unverified animal is your proof that there is a breeding population of cougars in Virginia? Again, I think most people don't have any problem acknowledging the existence of transient cougars...but an established, breeding population is another matter all together. And there are a whole array of methods used to determine rough estimates of animal populations (field surveys, track analysis, scat analysis, ect.). It would also probably help if you actually provided the sources for those quotes, so we can see where where they came from and whether or not they're valid.

You actually seemed to be implying that cougar expansion into the east was much more imminent than what current studies suggest. And you said that there is a breeding population in Virginia, though I've still yet to see you provide your source for that. It's not unreasonable to think that cougars will eventually re-colonize parts of the east. But the fragmented nature of the wilderness in much of the east means that it will take quite a while for that to happen naturally.

Growalot, I'm not denying that there have been transient cougars throughout the east, but you said there was scientific evidence of a breeding population in Virginia. Again I ask you: what is your source for that claim?

It's scientific fact that this a breeding population of Cougars in Virginia? What is your source for that? If you want scientific fact, go read about the USFWS de-listing eastern cougar from the "endangered" list due to extinction: Eastern Cougar Extinct. There may be transients from the west moving through parts of the east, but that's not the same as an established, breeding population. And these so-called "Sightings" are a dime-a-dozen. Scat samples, kill sites, tracks are left by all animals, even cougars. If there were a resident population of eastern cougars, anywhere outside of Florida, there would be scientific evidence to support that. Heck even when the Florida panther was down to only several dozen individuals back in the 70's and 80's, people were still hitting them with cars. Yet, for all these "sightings" there hasn't been one road-kill cougar, nor any tracks or DNA evidence to suggest that there is an established population in the East. I think some people are letting their imagination get the better of them, just like some do with big-foot. Transient cougars, usually young adult males, have been found in some eastern states. But it's going to take a bit more time for breeding populations to re-colonize the east, and such populations will likely only re-occupy remote areas of the Northeast, where they'll have the required habitat to accommodate their range.

400 yard hunting shots are certainly possible in NY, I just don't think they are the norm. The tree stands I've used and seen have generally been set up on the edge of farm fields, where the deer are likely to cross or pop out, so the shots aren't normally that long....obviously that is a generalization to which there are exceptions. And then when you start talking about still hunting in the woods, the distances get even shorter. Anyway, my point was that a scope with 3-9 magnification is realistically more than sufficient for the type of hunting someone would do in NY.

7mm may be a long range gun, but hunting in the northeast (I assume that is where the OP is intending to use his scope/rifle setup) usually requires nothing beyond 150 yards. OP, all of the scopes look decent enough on paper...they all come from reputable manufacturers. The 3-9 magnification range is more than adequate for the type of shots you'll likely be taking in NY. Is the Burris front focal plane or rear focal plane? If it's FFP, I'd definitely give it some serious consideration.

I appreciate the feedback, but I'm fairly confident with myself when it comes to marksmanship and dog handling. I'm a decent enough shot and have no issues with accurately placing a bullet on anything within 500 yards. I know the in's and out's of handling my dog, especially in the woods during hunting season. I do intend to leash him up if I track or walk through an area with hunter activity. Otherwise, I've had no issues with him off leash during hikes and walks during hunting season; he knows to stay close and I put an orange harness on him to make him stand out. I do like working with my dog, which was one of the main reasons I sought clarification on this issue. I don't plan on taking bad shots on purpose, but I do want the opportunity to put my dog's nose to work, whether it be for myself or for other hunters. Like I said earlier, this was never about my "needs." I don't need my dog at my side when I go hunting. But then also I don't need a scope on my rifle, nor do I need camo, a rifle sling nor a tree stand. One could argue those items are practical to have, but certainly not "needed" for a hunt. I see a certain practicality in having a dog readily available to track in the backcountry. That practicality may be lost on someone who only walks 500ft from his car to his treestand, but anyone who has spent extensive time bushwacking in the remote parts of upstate NY knows that it is very easy to lose your bearings, especially when you are looking for something on the ground. I understand the stipulations on how and when such tracking can be conducted in NY. And, as someone else has acknowledged, it can be fun and educational, for both the dog and the handler, to track wounded deer, even if the deer's location is known. Tracking is a perishable skill, and the only way to get better at it is to actually do it.

Agreed on the sidearm part. But for those who don't have a NYS pistol permit, carrying a shotgun or rifle is the only option. To all the recent posters, thanks again for the additional feedback. I understand that hunting and tracking are 2 separate activities. The main cause for confusion, in my eyes, was that even tracking a wounded animal with a dog while carrying a rifle or shotgun, in the Northern Zone, was in direct violation of this clause in the DEC regs: the "accompanied by" part is what was throwing me for a loop. Culvercreek HuntClub gave the explanation that this tracking permit provides a legal exception to that rule, and I'm inclined to agree; obviously I'll verify that with the DEC.

The DEC tax incentive program for private landowners opening up land to public use gives a payback to the public: people are now allowed to use these conservation easements, not just for hunting, but for all types of uses (hiking, camping, paddling, ect). This program that you insist won't work is in fact already in place in NYS. As for tax incentives stealing the tax-payer's money, I couldn't tell you how much of a cut this incentive program causes to the NY's overall revenue, and I doubt you could either, seeing as you didn't even know this tax incentive program existed in the first place. But you know what else steals money from the tax-payer? The actual taxes do. And in this state, which has one of the highest tax rates in the country, I'd be more inclined to complain about actual taxes levied rather than taxes refunded back due to incentive programs. All that aside, I'm quite amazed that you started this thread with the intention of discussing ways to incentive private landowners to open up their land to the public, and yet when you learn about a state program which does just that you criticize it because it "steals" money from the taxpayer.....make up your mind.