Feed this trophy buck?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Or is that really me?

Gee Sam, if that really is you do you breed those pup's also?  Nice!

[sampotter]

No, I didn't breed them, both are purchased.

[sampotter]

Whatever. This started with you claiming EHD is an acute disease. If you want to tell me why that is true go ahead, maybe I can learn something.... By the way, the buck in the picture was killed and the necropsy indicated it was in fact CWD...

 

It typically is, or at least that is what the Midwest has been seeing. If that buck had CWD then it wouldn't matter what you fed him. His fate was sealed. No hard feelings Mike, I just never had someone question what I said I did for a living.

[mike rossi]

Just a second Potter...  Not getting off the hook so easy... There was  implication about me or other persons not having real world practical experience in post 13 ... I am sure you can answer my earlier questions regarding dairy mangement. Upstate Nomad 90 answered in post 18, I didn't check his math, but I will trust it... However we haven't heard from the author of post 13... No helping Potter, that's cheating, like feeding deer...

[mike rossi]

It typically is, or at least that is what the Midwest has been seeing. If that buck had CWD then it wouldn't matter what you fed him. His fate was sealed. No hard feelings Mike, I just never had someone question what I said I did for a living.

 

I am not claiming to be an expert on zoonosis, but sorry, I just don't see how EHD  can be an acute condition. I agree it may kill without body wasting, but I don't see why it would not cause emaciation, especially considering the known symptoms, particularly  "loss of appetite." When I get some time I am going to review some of literature on EHD, you got my curiosity up.

 

 I asked you what you did for a living? I don't recall that...

Edited February 18, 2014 by mike rossi

[sampotter]

Just a second Potter...  Not getting off the hook so easy... There was  implication about me or other persons not having real world practical experience in post 13 ... I am sure you can answer my earlier questions regarding dairy mangement. Upstate Nomad 90 answered in post 18, I didn't check his math, but I will trust it... However we haven't heard from the author of post 13... No helping Potter, that's cheating, like feeding deer...

 

Was I supposed to respond to this or FSW?

 

Upstate Nomad is partially correct, but I said 3800 head, not 3800 milk cows. We ship about 130,000# of milk a day from 1600 lactating cows. 3800 includes all milk cows, dry cows, and young stock. Yes, were a CAFO and are fully compliant with a very detailed nutrient management plan.

[sampotter]

Sorry, I just don't see how EHD is can be an acute condition. I agree it may kill without body wasting, but I don't see why it wouldn't cause emaciation especially considering the symptoms, particularly  "loss of appetite." When I get some time I am going to review some of literature on EHD, you got my curiosity up.

 

 I asked you what you did for a living? I don't recall that...

 

You asked if I even knew what AI was and requested pictures of my operation. I assumed it was because you thought I was B.S.-ing you.

 

I think it depends what you read on the internet. This is from the MI DNR:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150-26647--,00.html

 

A few highlights from the article below:

 

"Epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) is an acute, infectious, often fatal viral disease of some wild ruminants."

 

"White-tailed deer develop signs of illness about 7 days after exposure. A constant characteristic of the disease is its sudden onset. Deer initially lose their appetite and fear of humans, grow progressively weaker, often salivate excessively, develop a rapid pulse and respiration rate, and fever (affected animals frequent bodies of water to lie in to reduce their body temperature) and finally become unconscious. Hemorrhage and lack of oxygen in the blood results in a blue appearance of the oral mucosa, hence the name 'bluetongue'. Eight to 36 hours following the onset of observable signs, deer pass into a shock-like state, become prostrate and die."

 

 

Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD) in White-Tailed Deer

Agency: Natural Resources

"2013 Surveillance Summary

In 2013, Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD) has been diagnosed in 7 deer in 6 counties.  The laboratory confirmed deer are from Muskegon, Ottawa, Oceana, Ionia, Berrien, and Allegan counties.  Small numbers of additional dead deer were reported associated with these mortalities.  Total mortality estimates at this point are difficult to determine; final figures will be determined following the completion of the firearm deer season.  It appears that the estimate will likely be in the 100 to 400 deer range.                              

Description

Dead White-tailed deer

- click to enlarge -

White-tailed deer died of EHD in 2007 (MDNR photo)

Epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) is an acute, infectious, often fatal viral disease of some wild ruminants. This malady, characterized by extensive hemorrhages, has been responsible for significant epizootics in deer in the northern United States and southern Canada. A similar hemorrhagic disease called bluetongue also occurs throughout the U.S. and Canada. The two diseases are antigenically different.

Distribution

Since 1890, deer die-offs from diseases which might have been EHD have occurred in various parts of North America. These early die-offs were variously diagnosed as blackleg, blacktongue, bluetongue, mycotic stomatitis or hemorrhagic septicemia or they were undetermined. The causative agents were never confirmed. A review of the case histories, signs and lesions, seasonal occurrence, and lack of a bacterial agent suggests that they might have been EHD.

The first occurrence and subsequent identification of EHD occurred in 1955 when several hundred white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) succumbed in both New Jersey and in Michigan. It was considered a new disease of deer and the name 'epizootic hemorrhagic disease' was suggested to describe its main clinical and pathological features.

Since the initial 1955 outbreak, this malady has occurred primarily among white-tailed deer, although occasionally mule deer (O. hemionus) and pronghorn antelope (Antilocapra americana) have succumbed. EHD has been present in the United States for over 50 years now and large scale regional deer population decreases have not been observed. Additional die-offs attributed to EHD occurred in Michigan in white-tailed deer in 1974, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. The 1974 die-off occurred in several counties and resulted in approximately 100 deer dying. The 2006 die-off occurred in the southwestern portion of the state in Allegan County and involved 50-75 animals. In 2008, the die-off occurred in the southeastern portion of the state in Oakland and Macomb counties and involved 150-200 deer. In 2009, the die-off took place in the southwestern/southcentral portion of the state in Livingston County and involved 300-450 deer. In 2010, the die-off occurred in the southwestern portion of the state in Allegan, Berrien, Cass, Ottawa, St Joseph and Van Buren Counties with an estimated mortality of 1,025 deer. In 2011, the die-off occurred in the southwestern portion of the state again in Cass and St. Joseph Counties with an estimated mortality of 300 deer. In 2012, the die-off occurred in 30 counties across the southern half of the Lower Peninsula with 14,898 deer reported dead. 2012 Map of EHD in wild deer occurrences - January 8, 2013

Transmission and Development

The mode of transmission of EHD in nature is via a Culicoides biting fly or midge. Culicoides variipennis is the most commonly incriminated vector in North America. A deer must be bitten by a midge carrying the virus to become infected. The disease is not transmitted directly from one deer to another but must go through the insect vector. A common observation in outbreaks involving large numbers of deer is that they are single epizootics which do not recur. Die-offs involving small numbers of deer occur almost annually, and the disease appears to be enzootic in these areas. All documented outbreaks of EHD have occurred during late summer and early fall (August-October) and have ceased within two weeks of the onset of frost, which kills the midge.

Experimentally, the disease can be transmitted to susceptible deer by the inoculation of virus-laden material from infected deer by subcutaneous, intramuscular, intravenous or oral routes.

Clinical Signs

Clinical signs of EHD and bluetongue are very similar.

White-tailed deer develop signs of illness about 7 days after exposure. A constant characteristic of the disease is its sudden onset. Deer initially lose their appetite and fear of humans, grow progressively weaker, often salivate excessively, develop a rapid pulse and respiration rate, and fever (affected animals frequent bodies of water to lie in to reduce their body temperature) and finally become unconscious. Hemorrhage and lack of oxygen in the blood results in a blue appearance of the oral mucosa, hence the name 'bluetongue'. Eight to 36 hours following the onset of observable signs, deer pass into a shock-like state, become prostrate and die. More photos of dead deer in water with permission from Tom Stafford of QDMA.com

Pathology

The gross and histological lesions of EHD have been characterized by, as its name implies, extensive hemorrhage. The hemorrhages range from pinpoint to massive in size, and involve different tissues and organs in individual animals. No organs appear to be exempt from hemorrhage, with the most regularly involved being the heart, liver, spleen, kidney, lung and intestinal tract. Extensive hemorrhaging is the result of interference with the blood-clotting mechanism together with degeneration of blood vessel walls.

Generalized edema and increased pericardial fluid are consistently found in EHD. These changes also reflect the widespread interference with normal blood circulation.

The virus can be recovered from a variety of tissues of animals which have succumbed to EHD. These include blood, liver, spleen, kidney, lung, heart and muscle.

Diagnosis

A combination of case history, characteristic signs and lesions, and the isolation of the virus is necessary for a diagnosis of EHD. Useful aids in obtaining a diagnosis are the epizootic nature of the disease, its seasonal occurrence, its spectacular hemorrhagic lesions and the extensive edema. Because of the similarity of its symptoms to other diseases, such as bluetongue and malignant catarrhal fever, the isolation and identification of the virus is essential.

Methods to be used for virus isolation are: (1) inoculation of cell cultures; (2) inoculation of susceptible sheep or deer combined with serologic monitoring; and (3) intravenous inoculation of embryonating chicken eggs.

Treatment and Control

There is no known effective treatment or control of EHD. Theoretically, an oral vaccine could be developed for administration through a supplementary winter feeding program, but this is presently impossible, impractical and unwarranted.

Significance

Because of its very high mortality rate, EHD can have a significant effect upon the deer population in a given area, reducing numbers drastically. A common observation in outbreaks involving large numbers of deer is that they are single epizootics which do not recur. Die-offs involving small numbers of deer occur almost annually, and the disease appears to be enzootic in these areas.

Hemorrhagic disease can be transmitted to other wild ruminants. The EHD virus can infect domestic animals, most commonly hoof stock, but rarely causes disease.

The edibility of the venison is not impacted by the disease. There is no evidence that humans can contract the EHD virus either from the midge or from handling and eating venison.

Pets and wildlife can not be infected by either midges or from EHD infected deer carcasses.

Information for Hunters, What to look for in your deer:

Hoof Abnormalities

EHD lesions seen in dead deer

Even with these lesions, the deer meat is edible. If you see any of these please take your deer to a MDNR Check Station.If you come across dead deer in the field, please report them by following these directions:

To report the presence of dead deer, we encourage members of the public to contact their nearest MDNR Wildlife office or fill out the Sick or diseased bird or mammal Reporting Form. If you have specific information that has been reported to you but that has not yet been shared (not first hand), you may report it on the same form. The form requests a zip code; if you don't know the zip code of the location of the suspect EHD deer, just enter 55555. Thank you.

Recommended material:

EHD in Wild Ruminants, National Wildlife Health Center, Wildlife Health Bulletin 2012-5"

[mike rossi]

Was I supposed to respond to this or FSW?

 

Upstate Nomad is partially correct, but I said 3800 head, not 3800 milk cows. We ship about 130,000# of milk a day from 1600 lactating cows. 3800 includes all milk cows, dry cows, and young stock. Yes, were a CAFO and are fully compliant with a very detailed nutrient management plan.

 

Good Job UN90.

 

I think most of the guys who do the labor, as I have, know the day to day operations from how many bales to feed to how many pounds are produced to how much diesel it takes to run the honey wagon and everything between.. . When someone boasts about all this hands on experience in a way that invalidates someone else or an academic discipline, I would like to see if that person has actually been in the barn... A person who has been in the barn may not be able to answer from a 3,800 head herd manager's perspective, but he can demonstrate that he grabbed some teats, pitched square bales, and scooped some poop... I been there, he says I was not and he is/was. He asks for all this proof like who the heck he thinks he is.... Yet I don't see any proof he has been in the barn, lol...  

Edited February 18, 2014 by mike rossi

[UpstateNomad90]

Was I supposed to respond to this or FSW?

 

Upstate Nomad is partially correct, but I said 3800 head, not 3800 milk cows. We ship about 130,000# of milk a day from 1600 lactating cows. 3800 includes all milk cows, dry cows, and young stock. Yes, were a CAFO and are fully compliant with a very detailed nutrient management plan.

 

 

My college education almost paid off other than the reading part. I realized after you said 3800 heads and not milkers. But congrats that is an awesome farm you have going on, it is a lot bigger than what is by my house. 

[mike rossi]

Thanks for the article, I will read it later.

[mike rossi]

Potter,

 

I read what you posted and did some other reading.   I will grant you that emaciation represents a number of other diseases and EHD has its own distinct symptoms. Most of the online images of EHD casualties depict normal weight and the animal often dies in water.  Indeed, if I saw an emaciated deer, my first guess and my second, would not be EHD. I should not have mentioned EHD suggestively with the photo of the CWD deer.  However I reacted to your post because emaciation due to EHD is not unheard of.

 

There is a chronic form, which deer sometimes recover from, and acute form, and a peracute form. As you indicated, the disease usually runs its course quickly, but sometimes the animal lives for some time or even recovers.  Animals lose their appetite and suffer from other symptoms which interfere with feeding. Therefore in instances when the disease progresses slowly the animal might lose a visible amount of weight.

Edited February 18, 2014 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Potter,

 

I read what you posted and did some other reading.   I will grant you that emaciation represents a number of other diseases and EHD has its own distinct symptoms. Most of the online images of EHD casualties depict normal weight and the animal often dies in water.  Indeed, if I saw an emaciated deer, my first guess and my second, would not be EHD. I should not have mentioned EHD suggestively with the photo of the CWD deer.  However I reacted to your post because emaciation due to EHD is not unheard of.

 

There is a chronic form, which deer sometimes recover from, and acute form, and a peracute form. As you indicated, the disease usually runs its course quickly, but sometimes the animal lives for some time or even recovers.  Animals lose their appetite and suffer from other symptoms which interfere with feeding. Therefore in instances when the disease progresses slowly the animal might lose a visible amount of weight.

This post kinda goes back to post #13 showing what book smarts and living the life. There are at least 3 strains of EHD. Types 1&2 can be treated, Strain#6=Dig a hole!  A deer dies in and around water because they have a fever. They are cooking from the inside, hence going to water.They wont live long enough to waste away to skin and bone like cwd.      A few other signs have been.

1. swollen mouth/tongue and drooling

2. tenderness of feet, walking gingerly

3. pained look in eyes

4. death with no warning, fed at 8pm, dead at 7am. Blood around mouth.

5. redness around eyes, mouth

6. swelling around eyes, usually accompanied with one or more of the above.

A good strong dose of Dex,Draxin and baytril will help big time but the only way to save a deer is to get its body temp down asap and around the farm that is a garden hose right up the a$$. Cold water will save them.    Now of course the wild deer will never have this pleasure and they will also not have the gift of the farmer spraying his pens the kill the midge that gives us EHD to begin with. If you have mud or standing water around your pens or land in EHD country,you will have the midge.  A 3 day treatment and the animal will live but now we have vaccine that we can give our deer to just about stop the problem.

So you see there is a huge difference from being copy and paste smart and living the dream.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails

[mike rossi]

Cut and paste like you did with the almost 10 year old news paper article when CWD was discovered near Westmorland , NY? You pasted it on in a manner that it appeared it was written by you...

 

You want to revisit post 13? You had your chance you to show you get your hands dirty; Potter and UpstateNomad90 answered, but for the first time you kept your mouth shut... Because you probably do as much as you know....

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2014 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Cut and paste like you did with the almost 10 year old news paper article when CWD was discovered near Westmorland , NY? You pasted it on in a manner that it appeared it was written by you...

 

You want to revisit post 13? You had your chance you to show you get your hands dirty; Potter and UpstateNomad90 answered, but for the first time you kept your mouth shut... Because you probably do as much as you know....

Sorry buddy..I live this crap every day.  When you can show one proven case of cwd being contracted from one deer to another by any type of body fluids or the cwd prion found in any body fluids you feel free to post away.

 

For somebody that tries to make it sound like he knows alot about cwd you sure are missing a few pages.  You may want to start by learning the facts of cwd in your own state first.  Google it my friend. Heck i will even give you the vets contact info if you want to know about the necrop's of said deer.  There is a big difference from living inside cwd where i am and from the outside where you sit!

 

Untill you can come back with fact's you may want to let it rest.

[mike rossi]

Populous Rhetoric, Pro - Ignorance and Anti-Intellectualism

By Mike Rossi

 

It is often impossible to present a comprehensive portrait in the context of a single post or rebuttal. Especially when communicating with a diverse audience about complex or multiple concepts. By contrast it is easier to create attractive propaganda at an eighth grade comprehension level.  It is at that education level which is believed material will read by the greatest number of people. Emotional messages are much more effective than than factual messages when the information must be restricted in size and/or understood by the majority, such as in a letter to a newspaper or a television “infomercial”. In other words, it is easier to embellish the facts in a brief, reader – friendly format than it is to summarize the facts accurately in the same concise manner.

 

But the above refers to advertising and propaganda. What is meant by populous rhetoric, pro– ignorance, and anti-intellectualism?

 

Defining it only takes one sentence: Populous ideology rejects education and science; and by that definition it is therefore pro-ignorance.  Describing it so it can be identified takes more than one sentence however and the following paragraphs do just that….

 

A populous argument is not characterized by brevity and/or conciseness. To the contrary they are extremely pedantic and often are borderline incoherent rants.  As a matter of fact they often can be characterized as long essays which are hard to summarize and deliberately ambiguous and vague.

 

A populous is not interested in presenting the facts accurately nor does he necessarily know or understand the facts. A populous will deliver his case or respond in a manner that will impugn motives, besmirch character, obfuscate, or he will simply change the subject…

 

Populous rhetoric is not fact-driven and analytical but rather narrative-driven and emotional. They operate on what they wish are the facts or what they want others to believe.

 

The tone of a populous defines austerity and is stern and authoritative. Even in print you get a sense a populous is yelling at you.

 

A populous offers endless recriminations after they have already been lost…

 

They will wage war on basic and apolitical concepts like quantitative analysis and polling. Ironically, in the realm of hunting and conservation the populist “majoritans” use the ballot box to guide the discharge of hunting and conservation policy, not science…  However, even when their personal special interests are minority and esoteric they still manage to recruit the unbenefited  majority into their camp, in some cases even if the proposal sought compromises them – very easy to do if the flow of factual information is manipulated…

 

Edited February 21, 2014 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

Sam, There is a big difference between those with book smarts about farms and animals and those with everyday real world life smarts about farms and animals that deal with them everyday. As i'm sure you know

 

Really, 3800 head. Thats huge.

  

Reality Check:

• In post number 2, FSW said there was a 99% chance the pictured deer had EHD.
• Potter confronts FSW and tells him that his assertion in post number 2 is wrong.
• Mike Rossi tells Potter it is not impossible for EHD to cause weight loss. And Mike Rossi also explained why it is not impossible.
• FSW suddenly projects the conversation to appear that it was Mike Rossi, rather than himself, who made the erroneous claim that emaciation is caused by EHD 99% of the time... FSW does the same exact thing again when someone posts a study about lateral transmission of CWD in lab mice. Then he claims, several times, that Mike Rossi has been "schooled".
• The deer in the photo was shot and a necropsy was done. The results of the necropsy indicated the deer did indeed have CWD.

Edited February 21, 2014 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

 

Reality Check:

• In post number 2, FSW said there was a 99% chance the pictured deer had EHD.
• Potter confronts FSW and tells him that his assertion in post number 2 is wrong.
• Mike Rossi tells Potter it is not impossible for EHD to cause weight loss. And Mike Rossi also explained why it is not impossible.
• FSW suddenly projects the conversation to appear that it was Mike Rossi, rather than himself, who made the erroneous claim that emaciation is caused by EHD 99% of the time... FSW does the same exact thing again when someone posts a study about lateral transmission of CWD in lab mice. Then he claims, several times, that Mike Rossi has been "schooled".
• The deer in the photo was shot and a necropsy was done. The results of the necropsy indicated the deer did indeed have CWD.

 

Wow you just cant get over yourself. You may want to go back to your worry about the birds and let those that deal with cervid's on a daily bases worry about them.  As was shown, some know a little more than others.  Sorry, just a fact of life!   Time to move on. AGAIN!