Hunting Harriman

[thunnus]

Coming back from upstate saw a car parked well off road w/ the hunting decals on the back.

Has anyone hunted Harriman? At least the NYS part?

Are there permits? Designated parking areas?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[HUNTINGS IN MY DNA]

I believe there is no hunting there only politicians can hunt it

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[thunnus]

I believe there is no hunting there only politicians can hunt it

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ill run for office

[Curmudgeon]

If anyplace in NYS needs hunting, Harriman is it. My Mom In Law lives nearby. The place is an ecological disaster.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[thunnus]

Seems like it's closed to hunting: I'm amazed.

State office wants it to be open said it's up to DEC.

If we could get our hands on some vehicle damage reports we may be able to petition.

[Curmudgeon]

DEC tried to open it a generation ago. The animal rights folks down there had a fit. DEC backed off.

[HUNTINGS IN MY DNA]

ill run for office

lolol

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[HUNTINGS IN MY DNA]

There's giants in there I see them on the thruway alot

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[Recurver]

I hunted it many times I grew up there not as good as you would think.You can hunt the other side with a sterling forest permit

[Two Track]

Small strip between Route 17 and 87S has portions open to bow via Sterling Forest permit.  A nice chunk of that is swampy from looks of it.

 

I once saw deer following a car over on the Overpass just North of Tuxedo.  The deer know they are safe on that side of the Thruway.  Some also hang out with the horses by Exit 16.

 

The rest of Harriman you can shoot as many you want all year long as long as you have film or storage space available on the camera you are using.  Just can't eat the pics for nourishment.

 

[Curmudgeon]

There must be coyotes there that are failing to help the problem. Why not sneak some wolves in. That should please the animal rights people.

[Chef]

Small strip between Route 17 and 87S has portions open to bow via Sterling Forest permit. A nice chunk of that is swampy from looks of it.

I once saw deer following a car over on the Overpass just North of Tuxedo. The deer know they are safe on that side of the Thruway. Some also hang out with the horses by Exit 16.

The rest of Harriman you can shoot as many you want all year long as long as you have film or storage space available on the camera you are using. Just can't eat the pics for nourishment.

Yea those areas of sterling between 17 and 87 are very very swampy and very thick. One could successfully bow hunt in there but the walks In and out would be very difficult I looked at doing It but the access to get in there is very hard

[LIAF]

Portions of Harriman state park were originally opened up for a 3 yr trial run back in the early 80's. I hunted it in 81 or 82, I remember getting out of my car when a park officer came by and he said a bomb scare was called in and it would not be in my best interest to go into the woods. As soon as he left I went in to hunt and missed a deer that day. It seems that a lot of people complained about the hunt but it also appeared that the state had overestimated the number of deer that were in Harriman so the hunt was cancelled after one year. As a previous poster said its not as good as most people think.

[Curmudgeon]

As a previous poster said its not as good as most people think.

 

It is not as good because the habitat has been trashed by deer. I had time to kill a few years ago and spent some time in the park. The understory is limited to 2 species - mountain laurel and barberry. The deer have eaten everything palatable. Since predation and hunting didn't limit their numbers, they did it themselves. Unfortunately, their damage impacts all species that depend on the the understory, and prevents the regeneration of the forest.

[orion]

just let me say my experience with Harriman is driving by it on thruway. But i see a mere fraction of the deer there that there was 30 or so years ago.

[Curmudgeon]

just let me say my experience with Harriman is driving by it on thruway. But i see a mere fraction of the deer there that there was 30 or so years ago.

 

Makes perfect sense. If you overgrazed cattle on the same pasture for 30 years, they would not thrive.

[faust1578]

There is a quite a few piebald there I see them when I drive home at nite rite b4 exit 16

[faust1578]

I see a lot of deer on the grassy areas heading north on the thruway every nite

[thunnus]

What do you guys recon is the reluctance to letting people bow hunt?

Less deer on road, some people lodging in area and dining generating local revenue, perhaps sell permits, it's quiet and won't disturb neighbors.

[Curmudgeon]

What do you guys recon is the reluctance to letting people bow hunt?

Less deer on road, some people lodging in area and dining generating local revenue, perhaps sell permits, it's quiet and won't disturb neighbors.

 

I've heard that some animal rights people object to bow hunting more than firearms. The rationale I heard is that more are wounded and not recovered.

 

What Harriman needs is habitat restoration. A deer harvest at this point won't be nearly enough.

[NYhuntingdogs]

It is not as good because the habitat has been trashed by deer. I had time to kill a few years ago and spent some time in the park. The understory is limited to 2 species - mountain laurel and barberry. The deer have eaten everything palatable. Since predation and hunting didn't limit their numbers, they did it themselves. Unfortunately, their damage impacts all species that depend on the the understory, and prevents the regeneration of the forest.

 

I've spent many, many, many hours in both Harriman, Sterling Forest, and the private land between the two, although I haven't hunted any of the three areas.  I disagree that the habitat of Harriman has been trashed by deer.  There are some parts of Harriman with low plant/animal diversity and some vibrant areas with a wide range of species.  In my experience, the areas with low diversity are predominantly in centers of human interference on the landscape.  You can't blame the deer for not eating plants that have proliferated because of people.

 

Mountain laurel thrives in rocky, mountainous forests with acidic soil.  Harriman is a rocky, mountainous forest that was heavily mined in prior centuries.  Many areas were clear cut and the wood used to feed the furnaces.  Between the erosion from the logging and erosion from disturbing the rock, any area close to a mine has very acidic soil.  Acidic soil limits the nutrients available to plants, stunting and sometimes stopping root development.  Of the 36 official bodies of water in Harriman  only 8 are unaltered - 28 are either damned for enlargement  or created totally from scratch.  This redistribution of water within the park has had a huge impact on the soil.  On top of all this, ML is toxic to deer. 

 

The proliferation of the Japanese barberry has little to do with deer and much to do with Japanese barberry and people.  JB is an invasive species brought to the US by people.  It grows its leaves earlier and sheds them later than many other plants and so it enjoys a growth advantage.  The seeds have a very high germination rate and  are heavily dispersed by birds along the powerlines.  JB will thrive in woodlands, wetlands, swamps, meadows and disturbed areas (just about 100% of Harriman).  When JB starts to grow, it lowers soil acidity and creates a more favorable growth environment (that it already has a head start growing in!).   With the cards stacked in favor of Japanese Barberry in Harriman, It's flat out wrong to blame deer just because they don't eat the stuff.

 

Between the gas pipelines, electric pipelines, and the summer camps, there are many areas where the forest is removed and barberry/mountain laurel are the fastest-growing and hardiest plants that fill in the gaps.   If there were zero deer, then there may be a wider diversity of regenerative plant growth in some or all of these clear cut areas.  However, then there would be zero deer and less diversity elsewhere.  I agree that Harriman could use a "habitat restoration" but I have no idea how this could be achieved. 

 

In Sterling Forest, the areas most heavily grazed by deer are now characterized by an overgrowth of fern species while the clear cut powerlines are filled with laurel, barberry, and other thicket species.  In my experience, Sterling has much more coyote and bear (generalists) activity than Harriman and borders on overpopulation with these species in some areas.  Harriman has more bobcat (specialist) activity and a greater balance of predator species, even extending to a greater diversity of predatory birds.  The private land between the two parks is in the worst shape ecologically and will probably be developed at some point soon.   

 

I agree that more hunting would be great for the hunting community but I disagree that deer have done anything to ruin Harriman.   Amongst many local non-hunters, I do get the sense that Harriman is theirs to be "protected" while Sterling Forest is ignored or looked at derisively.

[NYhuntingdogs]

Coming back from upstate saw a car parked well off road w/ the hunting decals on the back.

Has anyone hunted Harriman? At least the NYS part?

Are there permits? Designated parking areas?

Any advice would be much appreciated.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1415625807.362364.jpg

 

Harriman is located entirely in NY.  That's not Harriman in the map you posted so I'm not sure what area you drove through.

Edited November 17, 2014 by NYhuntingdogs

[thunnus]

Harriman is located entirely in NY. That's not Harriman in the map you posted so I'm not sure what area you drove through.

You are right, Harriman is in NYC. Saw the car parked off the palisades.

Was just an image of "Harriman" copy and pasted via iPhone

[NYhuntingdogs]

It's in NY.  Rockland and Orange Counties.

[Curmudgeon]

I've spent many, many, many hours in both Harriman, Sterling Forest, and the private land between the two, although I haven't hunted any of the three areas.  I disagree that the habitat of Harriman has been trashed by deer.  There are some parts of Harriman with low plant/animal diversity and some vibrant areas with a wide range of species.  In my experience, the areas with low diversity are predominantly in centers of human interference on the landscape.  You can't blame the deer for not eating plants that have proliferated because of people.

 

Mountain laurel thrives in rocky, mountainous forests with acidic soil.  Harriman is a rocky, mountainous forest that was heavily mined in prior centuries.  Many areas were clear cut and the wood used to feed the furnaces.  Between the erosion from the logging and erosion from disturbing the rock, any area close to a mine has very acidic soil.  Acidic soil limits the nutrients available to plants, stunting and sometimes stopping root development.  Of the 36 official bodies of water in Harriman  only 8 are unaltered - 28 are either damned for enlargement  or created totally from scratch.  This redistribution of water within the park has had a huge impact on the soil.  On top of all this, ML is toxic to deer. 

 

The proliferation of the Japanese barberry has little to do with deer and much to do with Japanese barberry and people.  JB is an invasive species brought to the US by people.  It grows its leaves earlier and sheds them later than many other plants and so it enjoys a growth advantage.  The seeds have a very high germination rate and  are heavily dispersed by birds along the powerlines.  JB will thrive in woodlands, wetlands, swamps, meadows and disturbed areas (just about 100% of Harriman).  When JB starts to grow, it lowers soil acidity and creates a more favorable growth environment (that it already has a head start growing in!).   With the cards stacked in favor of Japanese Barberry in Harriman, It's flat out wrong to blame deer just because they don't eat the stuff.

 

Between the gas pipelines, electric pipelines, and the summer camps, there are many areas where the forest is removed and barberry/mountain laurel are the fastest-growing and hardiest plants that fill in the gaps.   If there were zero deer, then there may be a wider diversity of regenerative plant growth in some or all of these clear cut areas.  However, then there would be zero deer and less diversity elsewhere.  I agree that Harriman could use a "habitat restoration" but I have no idea how this could be achieved. 

 

In Sterling Forest, the areas most heavily grazed by deer are now characterized by an overgrowth of fern species while the clear cut powerlines are filled with laurel, barberry, and other thicket species.  In my experience, Sterling has much more coyote and bear (generalists) activity than Harriman and borders on overpopulation with these species in some areas.  Harriman has more bobcat (specialist) activity and a greater balance of predator species, even extending to a greater diversity of predatory birds.  The private land between the two parks is in the worst shape ecologically and will probably be developed at some point soon.   

 

I agree that more hunting would be great for the hunting community but I disagree that deer have done anything to ruin Harriman.   Amongst many local non-hunters, I do get the sense that Harriman is theirs to be "protected" while Sterling Forest is ignored or looked at derisively.

 

NYHD -

 

I'm please to hear that there is more diversity in Harriman than I observed in my one day. However, you are wrong about the deer. I based my original comments on my knowledge of the dynamics of invasives and deer, and recollections of what I have read about the park in the past, I decided to do some research to see who was correct. Here is only one of a number of things that turned up in a quick google search. It quotes the Conservationist on conditions and damage several decades ago. The situation today cannot be separated from the impacts from that time. 

 

From the Finger Lakes Native Plant Society special newsletter on White-tailed Deer and the Impact on Native Plants 2009:

 

     The question is not, “is there a problem,” but “will New York’s forests and wetlands survive the onslaught of outrageously-inflated, starving deer herds that are already wreaking destruction in several regions at this moment?” Deer-foraging impact is particularly vexing on large tracts of state park land where the agencies responsible for land management have tried to implement sound practices, but were stopped by lobbying influences. This is not a new problem. Also Leopold clearly forewarned us in the Journal of Forestry in 1936, offering suggestions that have gone largely unheeded. In the New York context, I refer you to just one of many articles, an item in The Conservationist (September issue, 1982: Deer Management, Unit 53), in which Thomas Cobb explained the plight of deer in Harriman State Park, described to him at the at time by Ward Stone (DEC pathologist) as being in “the worst condition that I have ever seen in wild deer.” Since that article was published, the Palisades Interstate Park Commission tried to initiate a reasonable deer management program in Harriman State Park, but was stopped by public outcry from animal rights activists. The deer are in even worse shape now, of course, and park vegetation suffered significantly.

       After personally exploring hundreds of miles, seeking every habitat in Harriman State Park and surrounding areas, I can tell you first hand that the vegetation there has been devastated by deer. Nearly every green thing has been nipped, often to the ground. Orchids and other rare herbs have shown a steep decline since the 1940s, and serious forage damage is evident throughout, from dry ridge-tops to trampled wetlands. In nearby Storm King State Park, where limited hunting is allowed, forage damage is far less, and plant diversity amazingly high for the latitude (over 850 species in 1200 acres). A similar, healthier condition is found in the adjacent West Point Military Academy Reserve, where careful management, enclosure studies and monitoring activities are carried out on a regular basis by the Army Corps of Engineers.

     It amazes me that animal rights activists are willing to fight relentlessly to insure that their friends, the deer, die slow agonizing deaths, rather than being thinned

 

 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Curmudgeon