Doc

If you had the occasion to witness one of these attacks by dogs, you might start wondering yourself just how much has really changed between wild wolves and supposedly domesticated dogs. The behavior sure wasn't typical of the typical lazy dog flopped out on the living room floor. That switch got turned by something from their primal past, and they definitely were not acting very domestic.

Or, maybe he was just using terminology that best describes what happened in laymen terms. I have no problem with describing a situation of killing without consuming as sport killing. It probably is not a term that I would use, but the point made was that the killing that day was not for sustenance but simple killing for killing's sake. That's not "anthropomorphizing, that is simply an attempt to be descriptive. And like I said, I have seen dogs do it and I think that the term "sport killing" might be what first comes to mind. How accurate is that term? I don't know, but it sure does convey the results.

You bet, I have answered this question so many times that there really doesn't seem to be any reason to repeat myself. And never any rebuttal because no one can refute what I am saying. Back in the days when it still mattered and could have made a difference, I was on the wrong side of the compound issue. I was for inclusion of compounds. Like the majority back then, I was not listening to those who claimed that mechanizing bowhunting was setting some precedents that would eventually lead to a changing of bow season to the point where the title "bow season" would lose all meaning and identity. So now we sit back with a little history at hand to provide proof that their fears have been borne out. I can now say that I was wrong and they were absolutely right. The compound did indeed form the precedent for the crossbow. No question about that now. We watched all the pro-crossbow arguments and if anyone was paying attention, "precedent" was always the trump card. And here we are, beginning chapter 2. What will the crossbow be the precedent for as we continue to de-archery bow season. Oh, we have plenty of things coming at us. Already on the horizon is air-guns and air-bows and anything else that technology can dream up. Lines have been so blurred that now the DEC threatens to add muzzleloaders into the season as though it no longer matters that firearms are being introduced. We have rifles already introduced and intermixed into a couple of days of bow season. And why not. That change already has been added to the growing list of precedents. As lines get more and more smudged, the differences between archery seasons and gun seasons get less and less defined. Bow hunting is being evolved right out of existence as more and more people begin to ask, "what is really the reason for a 'special season' and 'special regulations' for weapons that don't really need it anymore?" Is there any reason for special seasons? More and more people are beginning already to ask that question, and perhaps rightly so. Special seasons? ... special rules? is that getting to be an obsolete idea? At one time bow season was a rather benign low impact form of hunting that drew little attention. The idea of some special seasons and rules actually had some necessity and justification. That necessity is being erased a piece at a time ..... one precedent at a time.

There are a whole bunch of rifle and shotgun hunters who WANT to force themselves into bow season also. Should they too be allowed into bow season simply because they want to? Should that be their choice?

I have witnessed this kind of behavior before as a kid. We had sheep, and a pack of dogs (close relative of the wolf) had quite the time running through the township, visiting each of the sheep producers and engaging in an activity that could only be described as "thrill killing". There was no indication of them eating any of them as they went from one to another doing enough damage to kill them. No these were not wolves, but they are the same biological family of canidae. So when people use this same kind of terminology that was used in this article, I have no reason to be critical. I know that "sport killing" is a potential mind-set among this genetic family of predators. I have seen the same thing with dogs vs. deer. No intention to eat the prey, just the thrill of the kill. It is a "pack-thing".

I don't think there is any one set of attitudes or features of a crossbow hunter that applies to all owners of a crossbow. Just like any of us, we're all individuals. Anything that you may think is characteristic of all crossbow hunters is bound to have plenty of exceptions within some individuals. But sometimes it is interesting to contemplate why the sudden interest in alternative weapons in bow seasons. Like I say there is no one answer for all, but some of the potential motives do say a lot about where the sport is heading.

So what's the story now. Is this lack of taking does something that has just recently happened? Why is it now that everybody only wants to take bucks? Is this a generational thing, or a TV inspired phenomenon? It's all a mystery to me, because if I have a permit in my pocket, unless it's a fawn, no antlerless deer gets safe passage from me. Also, the hunters that I know feel the same way. So who are all these buck only hunters? Where is that idea coming from?

I don't know. That's what they said about the youth rifle season stirred in with the early bow season, and so far, nothing has happened. But I do get your point. It could be a much more lethal thing if done on a much larger scale. However, I still avoid those days by staying home.....lol.

Wisconsin's CDAC sounds a lot like our Citizen Task Forces that establish harvest targets for our WMU, with the same anti-deer biases and business financial interests. But anyway, If you want to severely cut deer numbers, there is little argument that "doe only" harvests are the way to do it providing you make a real honest effort and use the proper season where such an effort has a chance of working. Not the silly pretend-effort that our DEC tried with archers only. Seriously, it makes a lot of sense to remove the breeding segment of the deer producers if the object is to eliminate as many deer as possible. On the other hand, the discussions about what numbers the deer are currently at and what those numbers should be become a much more serious and intense discussion when such slash and burn tactics of population cutting are used.

Actually, the easiest way to do that is during a season where they already have the most efficient equipment to really do the job. That would be the regular gun season. If they were really serious about that little "doe only" fiasco, and if they truly wanted the doe population whacked on, they would have done the real obvious solution which would have been to devote a few days of gun season to "doe-only" harvesting. The deer population control has absolutely nothing to do with crossbows, or bow season. I know it, you know it, and the DEC knows it too. So no, the crossbow is not the salvation of overpopulated situations or even close. However, if that is what they are pinning their hopes on, they will be real happy to start working firearms into the bow season as they are threatening. While that is something that bowhunters would really hate seeing, I do believe that that is the DEC's end game. The crossbow push by the DEC is more likely motivated as an initial interim conditioning step to break down the bowhunter resistance as they work toward the time when the mix of firearms and bows is maximized.

That is right. Those of you who think full inclusion of crossbows will end all the conflict had better think again. We have a lot of stuff coming downstream to supply jealousy and needs for a claim-jumping mentality. There is the atlatl, and now we have an air-bow. And the air-gun forces will be looking for inclusion as well. And of course the muzzleloaders want to shoehorn themselves into the bowhunters time-slot. And look at the poor handgun shooters they need a time to do their thing. And then there is the majority of hunters ... the rifle and shotgun shooters. I'm sure they would like their chunk of that early season. Do it for us older gunners who don't like the cold anymore or who could slip on the snow and break a hip. We don't need all this chaos and rancor. Full inclusion for everything. No more exclusivity. No more favoritism. One season .... one set of regulations, and use whatever you want.

But you know that will never happen. That would be contrary to all of today's thinking. We are in an "anything goes" kind of hunting mentality. We are more likely to see special seasons of all sorts dissolved, and any niche hunting being less and less accommodated. And maybe that's the way it should be. Maybe those old-timers that carved out a "special season" for bows only were wrong and should have known that eventually people would be coming for their special set-aside time of activity. Perhaps they should have been able to foresee the natural tendencies of people to always want what others have. The only solution to keep peace and harmony is to dissolve all special seasons and just have one "anything goes" season. Instantly all incursions and take-overs and discord goes away. Yeah, that will be a hard-sell too ..... lol.

That is what is different between bowhunters. Those that first fought for a "special" bow season really enjoyed the challenge of that particular weapon. It was all about the love of the bow and the fantastic feeling of accomplishment that those unique hunters got from successfully taking on the challenge. It really was all about the bow. Now "bowhunters" are predominantly all about the kill regardless of what weapon is used. There has been an evolution of mindset more than equipment. The mentality now is, weapon be damned. Just give me a piece of that early season and whatever I can find that will whack a deer with the least amount of effort, challenge and skill. Two completely different schools of thought and attitude. And in today's technocracy, guess which one is winning out.

Too late. The genie is out of the bottle. But perhaps back when the decision was made maybe we should have had a little more foresight and addressed the issue when that choice was still feasible. Yes, in retrospect, the choices made disregarded any views off into the future as so frequently happens. Today it is all about getting the first crack at the deer herd using whatever weapon makes it easiest. And given what the mentality has evolved into, and the effective ever increasing dropping of equipment restrictions, there really is no reason to pretend that bow season has any real restrictions required at all or any special significance that differs in any way from any other deer hunting season. And so, the DEC and other hunters see bow season as a wide open segment of the hunting year that everyone is scrambling to bulldoze their way into. The handwriting was on the wall back with the legal acceptance of the compound, but only a few could actually see it.

I love the use of the term "stole", because it is the perfect word to describe what is being done to bow seasons. And yes, I can speak authoritatively on the subject because I have been on both sides of the fence. So now having seen the results, and having seen the old-timers proven right, I am perhaps more sensitive to this idea of hijacking seasons. But you are absolutely correct to use the term "steal", because that is exactly what is being done to bow seasons today, once again. Actually it is not "once again", it is simply a continuation of what was started back when compounds were allowed to set the precedents for what is going on today. Everybody casts a jealous eye on that season and wants to shove their way into it. And by golly that is exactly what is happening.

I don't know a lot about motoring around the Adirondacks, but I assume that you have checked out the legality of going wherever it is that you intend to ride.

I now have another 5 big piles of brush to burn next winter, but the heat made me quit. My blood hasn't acclimated to that kind of temperature yet ..... lol. I'm afraid it is all going to coax out the buds on my fruit trees early again and then start in with the frosts. Fruit production in valley country of western NY is a pretty tough thing to make work. This year has the look of another wipe-out ..... again.

I was there right in the middle of the compound fight, and I remember that the prime argument against compounds was that it was the first step toward inclusion of all kinds of things that were never intended to be called bowhunting. The argument was that it would serve as a precedent. I was all for compounds, and pretty much brushed that argument aside. Well imagine my surprise when here today, I see that they were absolutely correct. The compound set a precedent where just about anything can now be included in bow season. Lets look at all of the things that have been added since the compound and can anyone argue that the compound is now the primary precedent for the justification of the crossbow. I don't think so. Just take a look at the reply just before this one. So yet another precedent has been established for incorporating more and more weapons that simply are not bows. Now in the Northern Zone, bows and muzzleloaders are used side by side.....firearms inclusion in a bow season. The late bow season also now hosts muzzle loaders. Another precedent has been established and accepted. So now the DEC has pretty much accepted that whenever they get a bug up their butt, muzzleloader inclusion is on the table anywhere they decide to include it ..... bowhunters be damned. Why not ..... the precedent has been set and accepted. So, is it really all that far before rifles are accepted? Oh wait, that precedent has been set also. Yes, I have to admit I was wrong. Those old-timers that argued against the compound were right. There is something to that precedent thing and there is proof now. We don't lose anything all at once. It is always through a bite her and a bite there. but the result comes out the same.

So many things to do and such an insufficient amount of time to do it. Yeah, we have all kinds of people trying to tell us all about what good citizens must do on a daily basis to remain good citizens. We are preached at, cajoled, told we have no rights to opinions because we don't devote our entire lives (and then some) to studying, and researching and spying on those agencies that are supposedly charged with carrying out the duties that they are paid for. But the truth is that even those doing the preaching have not reached expert status on all those things that we are supposed to be keeping track of. How do I know that? ..... Simple, there are not enough hours in a day to become subject experts on all those disciplines that we are supposed to become experts at.

Yes, lets get rid of special seasons altogether, and give hunters complete choice of weapons with no restrictions. That seems to be what everyone wants anyway. The heck with bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters. If they want to use the special weapons, let them all use it during the regular "Anything Goes Season". Eliminate all special privileges and exclusionary seasons and turn the bow season and muzzleloader special seasons over to whoever wants to use it.

I fish there every year at a place that we call The West River Marina ( it was a marina at one time). There are times when the bullheads and/or crappies are biting like crazy. But you have to catch it at just the right time (which doesn't last very long. So far I haven't heard of anyone getting a lot of them yet. Also, DEC has dug canals and ponds out in the West River swamp that can occasionally get you a bunch of them. Favorite bait years ago was big pollywogs (illegal if they have legs I've been told). We used to clean up on them. But there is another case where a light casting arm is essential.

That brings another thing has come to mind regarding activism. Statistics show that as population segment, most of us are getting a lot older, with some changes in passions and energy levels. Yes there are some issues that hit my hot buttons, and do edge hunting issues up the list of priorities a bit. I will say that the Safe Law got me pumped up pretty good, but that is a constitutional issue and probably does deserve a higher level on my priorities. Straight deer management issues don't even come close to that one. But over all, I am not as excitable as I used to be, and age probably has a factor in that. So I no longer feel that I have to attend every meeting that someone wants to hold.

I think that most lost the whole point of this thread. As I went through the endless partial list of some real important responsibilities that we have as citizens and parents and providers, the thing is that it is absolutely impossible to be expert at all of these things. It is impossible to be the ultimate "joiners" and activists. And so you really do have to prioritize and accept that not every important issue is going to receive its maximum amount of your attention. And so you have to prioritize. So the question is just where does deer management education sit on your list of priorities amongst all the truly important civic and personal activities and events and areas of study in your life? Perhaps 64 attendees was not really all that bad.

That's great for the cities and suburbs but lets consider an armful of counties and the jillions acres that the DEC is responsible for managing. No hunters .... No population cuts.

I took note of the deer hunter attendance reported at a recent deer management seminar. The number was something like 64? That number indicates that hunters pretty much sat this one out. Shame on us .....right? We are a pretty opinionated, passionate bunch of people, so why do such activities draw such feeble attendance. I think I know. If we were to attend all the functions and do research and join all the advocacy groups, and research all the political and responsible things that we as good citizens are expected to do, there truly would be no time left in the day to live out our lives. Think about it. All kinds of informative meetings take place many times a year. Elections and campaigns are all things that require intense research, local, state and federal. We literally have thousands of politicians and agencies to keep tabs on. We have school boards and teachers to keep our eyes on. We have judicial branches to keep abreast of. The list of responsibilities that the average citizen is expected to maintain an expert status on is limitless. And if you do not maintain a constant vigil on all of these necessary forces in our lives, you will get chastised and told that you have no right to an opinion if we have not performed the due diligence in becoming expert on all things going on around you. And yet we also have occupations that we are supposed to be expert at so that we can earn a living. We have children to raise, we have homes and personal finance that also require infinite attention. What I am describing is an impossible list of responsibilities that no one who is honest really does a complete job on. Oh, and if you plan on doing any kind of recreation like the hunting itself, well sorry, no time left for that..... too many things that require your intense attention. Well given that impressive and infinitely long list of required attention to all things around us, where do you suppose that a deer management seminar sits on a persons list of priorities? Anybody surprised that only 64 people decided to bump their deer management understanding up to top priority for the night? If you didn't go should you now be considered muzzled from expressing any opinions? What do all of you do to be expert on all things so that your opinion is valued as credible commentary?