Doc

I don't know. That's what they said about the youth rifle season stirred in with the early bow season, and so far, nothing has happened. But I do get your point. It could be a much more lethal thing if done on a much larger scale. However, I still avoid those days by staying home.....lol.

Wisconsin's CDAC sounds a lot like our Citizen Task Forces that establish harvest targets for our WMU, with the same anti-deer biases and business financial interests. But anyway, If you want to severely cut deer numbers, there is little argument that "doe only" harvests are the way to do it providing you make a real honest effort and use the proper season where such an effort has a chance of working. Not the silly pretend-effort that our DEC tried with archers only. Seriously, it makes a lot of sense to remove the breeding segment of the deer producers if the object is to eliminate as many deer as possible. On the other hand, the discussions about what numbers the deer are currently at and what those numbers should be become a much more serious and intense discussion when such slash and burn tactics of population cutting are used.

Actually, the easiest way to do that is during a season where they already have the most efficient equipment to really do the job. That would be the regular gun season. If they were really serious about that little "doe only" fiasco, and if they truly wanted the doe population whacked on, they would have done the real obvious solution which would have been to devote a few days of gun season to "doe-only" harvesting. The deer population control has absolutely nothing to do with crossbows, or bow season. I know it, you know it, and the DEC knows it too. So no, the crossbow is not the salvation of overpopulated situations or even close. However, if that is what they are pinning their hopes on, they will be real happy to start working firearms into the bow season as they are threatening. While that is something that bowhunters would really hate seeing, I do believe that that is the DEC's end game. The crossbow push by the DEC is more likely motivated as an initial interim conditioning step to break down the bowhunter resistance as they work toward the time when the mix of firearms and bows is maximized.

That is right. Those of you who think full inclusion of crossbows will end all the conflict had better think again. We have a lot of stuff coming downstream to supply jealousy and needs for a claim-jumping mentality. There is the atlatl, and now we have an air-bow. And the air-gun forces will be looking for inclusion as well. And of course the muzzleloaders want to shoehorn themselves into the bowhunters time-slot. And look at the poor handgun shooters they need a time to do their thing. And then there is the majority of hunters ... the rifle and shotgun shooters. I'm sure they would like their chunk of that early season. Do it for us older gunners who don't like the cold anymore or who could slip on the snow and break a hip. We don't need all this chaos and rancor. Full inclusion for everything. No more exclusivity. No more favoritism. One season .... one set of regulations, and use whatever you want.

But you know that will never happen. That would be contrary to all of today's thinking. We are in an "anything goes" kind of hunting mentality. We are more likely to see special seasons of all sorts dissolved, and any niche hunting being less and less accommodated. And maybe that's the way it should be. Maybe those old-timers that carved out a "special season" for bows only were wrong and should have known that eventually people would be coming for their special set-aside time of activity. Perhaps they should have been able to foresee the natural tendencies of people to always want what others have. The only solution to keep peace and harmony is to dissolve all special seasons and just have one "anything goes" season. Instantly all incursions and take-overs and discord goes away. Yeah, that will be a hard-sell too ..... lol.

That is what is different between bowhunters. Those that first fought for a "special" bow season really enjoyed the challenge of that particular weapon. It was all about the love of the bow and the fantastic feeling of accomplishment that those unique hunters got from successfully taking on the challenge. It really was all about the bow. Now "bowhunters" are predominantly all about the kill regardless of what weapon is used. There has been an evolution of mindset more than equipment. The mentality now is, weapon be damned. Just give me a piece of that early season and whatever I can find that will whack a deer with the least amount of effort, challenge and skill. Two completely different schools of thought and attitude. And in today's technocracy, guess which one is winning out.

Too late. The genie is out of the bottle. But perhaps back when the decision was made maybe we should have had a little more foresight and addressed the issue when that choice was still feasible. Yes, in retrospect, the choices made disregarded any views off into the future as so frequently happens. Today it is all about getting the first crack at the deer herd using whatever weapon makes it easiest. And given what the mentality has evolved into, and the effective ever increasing dropping of equipment restrictions, there really is no reason to pretend that bow season has any real restrictions required at all or any special significance that differs in any way from any other deer hunting season. And so, the DEC and other hunters see bow season as a wide open segment of the hunting year that everyone is scrambling to bulldoze their way into. The handwriting was on the wall back with the legal acceptance of the compound, but only a few could actually see it.

I love the use of the term "stole", because it is the perfect word to describe what is being done to bow seasons. And yes, I can speak authoritatively on the subject because I have been on both sides of the fence. So now having seen the results, and having seen the old-timers proven right, I am perhaps more sensitive to this idea of hijacking seasons. But you are absolutely correct to use the term "steal", because that is exactly what is being done to bow seasons today, once again. Actually it is not "once again", it is simply a continuation of what was started back when compounds were allowed to set the precedents for what is going on today. Everybody casts a jealous eye on that season and wants to shove their way into it. And by golly that is exactly what is happening.

I don't know a lot about motoring around the Adirondacks, but I assume that you have checked out the legality of going wherever it is that you intend to ride.

I now have another 5 big piles of brush to burn next winter, but the heat made me quit. My blood hasn't acclimated to that kind of temperature yet ..... lol. I'm afraid it is all going to coax out the buds on my fruit trees early again and then start in with the frosts. Fruit production in valley country of western NY is a pretty tough thing to make work. This year has the look of another wipe-out ..... again.

I was there right in the middle of the compound fight, and I remember that the prime argument against compounds was that it was the first step toward inclusion of all kinds of things that were never intended to be called bowhunting. The argument was that it would serve as a precedent. I was all for compounds, and pretty much brushed that argument aside. Well imagine my surprise when here today, I see that they were absolutely correct. The compound set a precedent where just about anything can now be included in bow season. Lets look at all of the things that have been added since the compound and can anyone argue that the compound is now the primary precedent for the justification of the crossbow. I don't think so. Just take a look at the reply just before this one. So yet another precedent has been established for incorporating more and more weapons that simply are not bows. Now in the Northern Zone, bows and muzzleloaders are used side by side.....firearms inclusion in a bow season. The late bow season also now hosts muzzle loaders. Another precedent has been established and accepted. So now the DEC has pretty much accepted that whenever they get a bug up their butt, muzzleloader inclusion is on the table anywhere they decide to include it ..... bowhunters be damned. Why not ..... the precedent has been set and accepted. So, is it really all that far before rifles are accepted? Oh wait, that precedent has been set also. Yes, I have to admit I was wrong. Those old-timers that argued against the compound were right. There is something to that precedent thing and there is proof now. We don't lose anything all at once. It is always through a bite her and a bite there. but the result comes out the same.

So many things to do and such an insufficient amount of time to do it. Yeah, we have all kinds of people trying to tell us all about what good citizens must do on a daily basis to remain good citizens. We are preached at, cajoled, told we have no rights to opinions because we don't devote our entire lives (and then some) to studying, and researching and spying on those agencies that are supposedly charged with carrying out the duties that they are paid for. But the truth is that even those doing the preaching have not reached expert status on all those things that we are supposed to be keeping track of. How do I know that? ..... Simple, there are not enough hours in a day to become subject experts on all those disciplines that we are supposed to become experts at.

Yes, lets get rid of special seasons altogether, and give hunters complete choice of weapons with no restrictions. That seems to be what everyone wants anyway. The heck with bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters. If they want to use the special weapons, let them all use it during the regular "Anything Goes Season". Eliminate all special privileges and exclusionary seasons and turn the bow season and muzzleloader special seasons over to whoever wants to use it.

I fish there every year at a place that we call The West River Marina ( it was a marina at one time). There are times when the bullheads and/or crappies are biting like crazy. But you have to catch it at just the right time (which doesn't last very long. So far I haven't heard of anyone getting a lot of them yet. Also, DEC has dug canals and ponds out in the West River swamp that can occasionally get you a bunch of them. Favorite bait years ago was big pollywogs (illegal if they have legs I've been told). We used to clean up on them. But there is another case where a light casting arm is essential.

That brings another thing has come to mind regarding activism. Statistics show that as population segment, most of us are getting a lot older, with some changes in passions and energy levels. Yes there are some issues that hit my hot buttons, and do edge hunting issues up the list of priorities a bit. I will say that the Safe Law got me pumped up pretty good, but that is a constitutional issue and probably does deserve a higher level on my priorities. Straight deer management issues don't even come close to that one. But over all, I am not as excitable as I used to be, and age probably has a factor in that. So I no longer feel that I have to attend every meeting that someone wants to hold.

I think that most lost the whole point of this thread. As I went through the endless partial list of some real important responsibilities that we have as citizens and parents and providers, the thing is that it is absolutely impossible to be expert at all of these things. It is impossible to be the ultimate "joiners" and activists. And so you really do have to prioritize and accept that not every important issue is going to receive its maximum amount of your attention. And so you have to prioritize. So the question is just where does deer management education sit on your list of priorities amongst all the truly important civic and personal activities and events and areas of study in your life? Perhaps 64 attendees was not really all that bad.

That's great for the cities and suburbs but lets consider an armful of counties and the jillions acres that the DEC is responsible for managing. No hunters .... No population cuts.

I took note of the deer hunter attendance reported at a recent deer management seminar. The number was something like 64? That number indicates that hunters pretty much sat this one out. Shame on us .....right? We are a pretty opinionated, passionate bunch of people, so why do such activities draw such feeble attendance. I think I know. If we were to attend all the functions and do research and join all the advocacy groups, and research all the political and responsible things that we as good citizens are expected to do, there truly would be no time left in the day to live out our lives. Think about it. All kinds of informative meetings take place many times a year. Elections and campaigns are all things that require intense research, local, state and federal. We literally have thousands of politicians and agencies to keep tabs on. We have school boards and teachers to keep our eyes on. We have judicial branches to keep abreast of. The list of responsibilities that the average citizen is expected to maintain an expert status on is limitless. And if you do not maintain a constant vigil on all of these necessary forces in our lives, you will get chastised and told that you have no right to an opinion if we have not performed the due diligence in becoming expert on all things going on around you. And yet we also have occupations that we are supposed to be expert at so that we can earn a living. We have children to raise, we have homes and personal finance that also require infinite attention. What I am describing is an impossible list of responsibilities that no one who is honest really does a complete job on. Oh, and if you plan on doing any kind of recreation like the hunting itself, well sorry, no time left for that..... too many things that require your intense attention. Well given that impressive and infinitely long list of required attention to all things around us, where do you suppose that a deer management seminar sits on a persons list of priorities? Anybody surprised that only 64 people decided to bump their deer management understanding up to top priority for the night? If you didn't go should you now be considered muzzled from expressing any opinions? What do all of you do to be expert on all things so that your opinion is valued as credible commentary?

And yet we have Jeremy Hurst stating that there is no deer management purpose served by ARs, and that it is really a socially inspired activity (paraphrased quotes since I don't remember the exact wording), and yet several more areas have been added to antler restriction sections. To me that sounds exactly like catering to hunter expectations. So while I kind of agree with your statement in principle, I am not sure that the DEC really does in practice. Now, with that all said, I do have to say that as long as hunters are the only realistic tool in the DEC tool-chest for managing deer populations. And with that tool being currently diminished in number and enthusiasm, they do have to be somewhat concerned with hunter recruitment and maintenance. I would guess that it is not in their best interest to be excessively irritating hunters or adopting policies that drive more hunters out of the activity.

The difference between a broken leg and a tragic death in this case boils down to pure luck. This could have turned out far worse (as if breaking someone's keg is trivial), and personal injury due to an illegal act cannot be sloughed off with a pat on the wrist. There is not a lot of difference between using a gun, knife, club, ......... or two tons of powered steel. Certainly we who are comfortably sitting in front of our computers can have the luxury of being benevolent and magnanimous, but what if it were our bones that were so callously smashed? Frankly, I am quite tired of making excuses for the misbehavior of youngsters. Especially misbehavior that causes personal injury to others that are simply doing their job.

Eddie, our prayers are with you and your family.

Ok, Here's the good news. When he is out of the country, he is not screwing up our lives with his leftist legislation. That's good! if it takes family accompaniment to get him away from us, it is truly a good investment. Now what will it take to get all of congress on an all expense paid, year long, vacation to somewhere? .....Anywhere!

Actually, I have a hard time understanding how anyone thinks they can change the stance of NYB from the outside looking in. If you have a beef with NYB policies, I would think you might actually get in there and try to change the policies that you disagree with and support the ones that you do agree with. As far as the thread topic is concerned, NYB has experience in that area, and perhaps instead of everyone trying to think of ways to do the same thing individually, you might think that supporting an existing organization would be a shortcut to making that happen where you live and would like to hunt.

Anybody who has a pulse can understand what the Trump bandwagon is all about. If you have ever even glanced at your income tax returns you should have an inkling of what it costs in terms of working hours to finance reckless tax-and-spend financial domination that our government hands us, without apology. If you have been around long enough, you probably recall times that were less invasive into your wallet, and it all becomes plain to you whenever you look at the taxes that show up at the bottom of every bill for everything you buy. Perhaps you start wondering why no one has ever done anything about run-abroad jobs that are even encouraged by law to head for foreign companies. Maybe you have watched U.S. spawned technology being handed over to third world countries so they can easily compete and beat us at our own game. Now even corporate headquarters are heading over seas in the corporate version of legalized tax evasion. Have you ever become upset over the new urban warfare from foreign sources? Does it make you want to have someone do something effective about it? You have the country literally imploding before our eyes, with government officials turning a blind eye, or even participating in it as it runs rampant. Do you take any note of the almost daily episodes of legislators involved in corruption and graft? Does that bother you? Have you reached the point where you are starting to feel helpless? Is it becoming clear to you that we are now working for the government instead of that system serving us? Well, I think most of the country has taken note of the impending demise of this country and are basically shouting out their window, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" That is what explains Trump. Every election comes down to Tweedle-Dee vs. Tweedle-Dum. It is always choices between career politicians whose only differences are which one can dig up the most dirt on the other. You always have to hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. Well this election is different. There is a candidate that is not part of the political status quo. This guy comes from outside the establishment and is prepared to do open battle with them (something we all wish we had the time and resources to do ourselves). Yup, he stumbles and bumbles his way along because he has not been trained by the party hacks. He sometimes make us wonder if maybe he is a bit too much. But the bottom line is that he is putting muscle to the issues that bother us daily. Desperation drives us to support someone that will take on the system and break the cycle, if for no other reason than a protest vote to let the politicians of the country understand that we really are mad as hell and unwilling to passively take it anymore. This will be the "shake-up vote" that sends messages that the country's citizens are getting restless and are ready for change and for heads to roll. If you are a business-as-usual politician, take note. Someone is coming for you and your world may never be the same (or as comfortable). Take time to understand what explains a Trump candidacy. Love him or hate him, it would be prudent to understand exactly where he is coming from and why he resonates with such a huge quantity of people.

I have built one of those poles with a spike on the end for grabbing up papers and cups and discarded bottles and even pop-cans from the ditches and woods-edges along a couple of miles of our road that I tend to annually. It's pretty handy for reaching across water filled ditches and saves the back from all that stooping over....lol. It is amazing just what kinds of pigs travel our roads. Most of what I pick up, were not mistakenly blown out of people's hands and out the window. They were purposely thrown there with no care about dirtying their own environment. Do these people throw their crap around at home and in their own yard? Probably not, so they do know better.