Meat Hunter

The old spike is one of the most common misconceptions. And I see why it happens. For the first 16 year I hunted I never saw or harvested more than a spike ( ok a tiny 4 or two as well) Even off season I did not see adult bucks. It is hard to believe that there just are not any bucks left to be adults. Since we got ARs it’s been a racked buck every year and the largest I have ever taken 3 out of 5 years. I am going to have to learn how to measure these things on the head. I have also seen many adult bucks, scraps sparing, grunting etcetera. This is all new and the result of antler restrictions.

Agreed

Hey Dom, love ya but I have learned and it is true that there are no 4-5 year old spikes. If you look at the DEC pdf of harvest data they show a graph with the number of points and age which clearly show this. Also this was in the letters section of the Outdoor news- issue before last. Dick Henry DEC Biolgist was quoted saying he had check 28,000 deer and had only see one two and a half with a fork horn. All the others had more points. He teachs aging in the area if you want to check it out.

Dom I heard that Dutchess County wants ARs what is the story with that?

It is a fact that only 45% report their harvest in the southern zone. Very poor. For anyone that doesn’t know we have mandatory legally required reporting in NY.

WNY so he was taken a day after you hit him with a gun by someone in the late bow season with a bow? Or was it the year before he was taken that you hit him? How many inches is that buck? Dave you are right about the yearling take in 8H when you said “They still feel the need to mow the yearlings down.” The harvest was made up of 55.56% yearling bucks in 08, 52.32% yearling bucks in 2009 and 51.61% yearling bucks in 2010. Think how many 2.5, 3.5 and older bucks would be around this coming season if they were not harvested as yearlings in the past few seasons. Also both your pictures demonstrate the potential for bucks in your area and in NY in general. It is a waste to never let the bucks even reach adulthood let alone start to express their potential. Yearlings still have milk teeth. A well set AR could protect all those bucks and even one that is only expected to protect 70% (like the one set for the Catskills) can end up protecting 85% of the yearlings. For 100 years hunters have said if you can see horns shoot the deer. ARs change that mindset and create the opportunity to actually have a choice of adult bucks.

WNY did Dave seal that big buck from your common hunting ground?

Ok where is that buck from I will be right over to hunt. What is the story with your hunting area? What WMU is it? You are right in some places there are so many adult bucks that one would have no reason to take a yearling. Those places are very few and far between in NY. The harvest of yearlings is very high even in the great hunting areas in Western NY. On a landscape scale the majority to 70%+ of yearlings are harvested each year. If you add in the buck fawns, the number of juveniles males harvested is ridicules. I think the most important point is that given a choice between yearlings and adults we would all like to see and harvest adult bucks. The maximize opportunity to have that choice is by not harvesting yearling bucks. That is why a regulation to protect yearling bucks is so strongly supported by hunters, makes common sense and is necessary to quickly improve the hunting for the little guy. Most NY hunters do not have the choice to harvest adult bucks. It seems some of you Western NY guys have some terrific honey holes.

Yes the majority of NY Hunters want a mandatory regulation/law to protect yearling bucks and you are right it is in the 2/3 range. It needs to be mandatory because 2/3 of the hunters want it to be mandatory so that all hunters are playing by the same rules. They do not want some hunters on board and others shooting the deer they pass. It is just like once a fish hits the magic limit, in inches, it goes in the cooler. Currently sportsmen are free to practice “Voluntary Antler Restrictions” in NY. How is that working compared to an antler restriction regulation? Statewide in 2010 55% of the harvest was yearlings, 27.8% 2.5 year olds and 14.3% 3.5 year olds. Compare this to the units that have mandatory antler restrictions in NY 15% of the harvest was yearlings, 49% 2.5 year olds and 36% 3.5 year olds. This comparison clearly shows that Voluntary Antler restrictions do not work and that a regulation provides the best improvement in the age of harvested bucks. Why? If I voluntarily pass up a small antlered buck then someone else will probably shoot it. This is common sense and the Cornell survey found that 72% of the hunters agreed. The only equitable solution is to have the AR’s an official regulation that applies to all adults. The majority of successful hunters in NY are harvesting yearling bucks. That is why yearling bucks make up the majority of the harvest. That is the reported harvest. What deer has the greater likelihood of seeing the light of day and being reported, the small yearling buck or a big adult one?

From DEC Website: Expansion of mandatory antler restrictions Mandatory antler restrictions (ARs) have been in effect in four Wildlife Management Units (WMUs 3C, 3H, 3J, and 3K) in the southern Catskills since 2005-2006, and in a portion of another WMU (3A) since 2011. Antlered deer taken in these WMUs must have at least one antler with 3 or more points that are at least one inch long. We proposed expanding this harvest restriction to seven adjoining WMUs in the Catskills (3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W), in accordance with the department‟s recently adopted deer management plan. The purpose of mandatory ARs is to reduce the harvest of yearling bucks, resulting in a higher proportion of older bucks in the local population, and a greater chance for hunters to harvest a larger buck with greater antler development.

Let’s get this straight. It is public record. The first antler restriction was done by law in 1911. It was the one three inch antler that some of you still worship. Then the first modification in 93 years was done by regulation in 2005 and the next by regulation in 2006. Then last year one unit was done by legislation BECAUSE THE DEC TOLD THE SPORTSMEN TO DO IT THAT WAY AT MANY MEETINGS. The reason given with a wink and a nod was the women at the top did not want to make a decision. Many people witnessed this. Most recently the ARs adopted last week were done by regulation in 7 units. It is funny to hear all these comments about the intent and reasons for ARs mostly from people who were not in the area or at the meetings. There were many meetings where this was discussed publicly when the DEC made joint presentations with sportsmen and 1000’s of people attended. This issue was very well covered in the local media as well. It would be nice to hear from those that were involved and hunt in the area and not from a bunch of people who have no first hand knowledge, were not involved and live hours away by car. ARs are about one thing having the buck age structure spread out to include more 2.5 and 3.5 year olds because that is better for the deer and for hunters. From everything I have seen a “trophy age” is 5.5+. That being said the AR areas are getting nice bucks never seen before in the area, at least since the 1940-50s. There are 3.5 year olds that run 156- to 173 inches that are being harvested. Both Ulster and Sullivan Counties have harvested the largest bucks since the 1920s. This shows what happens when the majority of yearling bucks are not killed. Hunters are now just harvesting 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks instead of 1.5 year olds. It is pretty simple and certainly does not warrant the drama around it found on this site. And can any of you honestly say that you would chose to shoot a juvenile yearling buck if an adult was standing next to it?

First I love that spot by the two apple trees. How many points does he have 3 or 4 on a side? Do you have a PIC of him when he was harvested? Tell me what WMU you’re in and I will see what the restriction needs to be in that area. The numbers I am using on the two buck harvest are from the DEC and do not include illegal harvest. I would like to see the poll you did on the site-do you have a link? You are right antler restrictions are the easiest way to develop age structure in the buck population. There are other ways but in NY ARs are very strongly supported by deer hunters according to DEC, Cornell, the NYS Conservation Council and other sportsmen surveys. And Steve ARs are the most effective way to improve age structure. Proven fact.

Very excited ARs are great. It is unfortunate that on the other tread no one answered the question just started a debate. Yotes--There was a meeting with the top DEC folks and sportsmen on this issue. Did any of you attend? What did you think?

Hey any and all hunters who take a buck at 7 AM are done Buck hunting for rifle season that is the law! So only one buck during "gun season". Now you can harvest an additional buck with a bow during bow season, (very small % o the harvest) at least without xbow. And you can harvest another buck during late bow muzzle loader season, which is an extension of gun season. Most bucks are pretty scare or dead by then. Once again not a very large % of the harvest. So anyone who is shooting another buck during gun is do so illegally. You can not fill someone else’s tag, not tag your deer ect.

I like what you had to say. However we do need to address the meat hunter thing. I just got done with my venison tacos and eat venison most days and that has been for years. However, only 15% of the hunters get a buck so 85% are going with out meat from bucks. Just because you have a “greater need” due to economic circumstances for venison does not improve your likely hood of a buck harvest. Luck and harvest of bucks in Deer hunting is “randomly” distributed among hunters. We do know that it takes about 4 days of effort to harvest a deer. And lets fact it once you bone out a yearling buck it is not that much meat especially if you’re feeding a family. From an economic stand point hunting deer probably makes little sense. As to allowing anyone making under 100,000 to shoot what they want means every hunter would be able to shoot a deer so it would be no difference in the deer population.

I used to believe that old buck thing but then I learned how to age jaw bones. Like I said it is on the DEC harvest data pdf so take a look. Unless you’re in the Adirondacks unlikely you got an old buck. If you think so let us see the lower jaw bone, both sides and the head.

Absolutely! What you do not want to bet me a $1000 as I sugested? All my information comes from DEC data, Not some staffers opinion.

That deer does not exist- look at the DEC harvest data and the number of point at each age class. Hell a 6 year old does not exist. There was a good article in the last ODN on this issue.

Would not reduce buck harvest! Well know only 2% of the hunters take two legal buck so would not save enought bucks to improve the hunting and buck age structure

Hey Steve, I bet you $1,000 that Dick Henry is not paid by QDMA to promote ARS! He has been in our area for 30 years. While he was at the department there was positive stuff posted on AR or what ever they called it then by the DEC and even after he left Mr. Hurst put on a positive AR presentations. Then magically when the director was replaced by a wetland biologist, Mr. Hurst was told to change his tune. It seems you just like to argue against ARs and there are a few guys like you in the state. Now I understand the quote about getting the popcorn and beer

You sent a letter to the Deer plan or the regulation adoption that just ended? Who sent you a response from the DEC?

Yes to tidbits- everyone needs to know that you cherry picked the quotes. Btw how many deer biologists work in Albany? Who wrote that? Was it written by a bureaucratic, a politician a scientist? Hint look for the opinion, supposition and political policy in the document. Are there facts to back up the statements or are there words to color the statements one way or another. Wiggle words.

It is like 10% in the previous AR Areas that our out of the area hunters. I could give you all the facts and figures and we can break it down to each county or wmu but it is really not critical to this chat.No way is even close to the "majority"

First show me the causal link- you see the wiggle word- "appear" to decline? Second the locals make up the majority of hunters- not out of the area hunters.

All hunters all season are required to comply with the antler restrictions except youth 17 and under