Meat Hunter

57.4 % of all NY hunters think that adopting mandatory antler restrictions to protect yearling bucks is a good idea. 53.6% thought it was a good idea to promote voluntary restraint on shooting small racked bucks. Those are 2 different questions and it is not one or the other; both are supported but Mandatory Antler Restrictions are more supported. I expect that many think a base line restriction is good and that above that there are tricks to help hunters pick adults that are in the older age classes that should be promoted.

I went throught this reciently and the answer was : tdsskiller which is free and was the key in getting rid of the redirect virus with google. I would run that first. T Yyour antivirus should be able to fix the rest of the problem. If you do not have a good antivirus then try the eset nod 32-they have 30 day trial and they found the balance of the problem. Let me know how it works out.

The only time I have heard this "hunters kill the best and strongest" argument is from a PETA girl. In fact NY hunters kill all the male deer as juveniles. Actually it is 85% at 2.5 years and younger and 99.5+ % before they are 4.5 years old. That creates an unnatural population that has insufficient adults bucks to engage in natural and normal social deer behavior. Hunters only wish to harvest the biggest and strongest in fact and practice the opposite is true. By the way nice job on the invasive birds. Hardly anyone seems to know let alone act on that.

Agreed we need to get the word out because the DEC is not. What would you like to say to the hunters out there who may not be aware?

Hi Joe, In the AR expansion area those who hunted there were asked if they supported ARs in those units and ...67.5% support the antler restriction in all the newly adopted units. State Wide 57% to 59% of the hunters support mandatory ARs

Also if hunting with a bow during regular "gun" seasons you only need a bow hunter course certificate but not a bow stamp. I believe.

Sounds like a neighbor is logging. Make sure that the neighbor and the logger know your paying attention. The lines seem to get blurred right around the valuable trees and often seem to get marked on the wrong side. As a rule line trees should not be cut and the logger cutting on the wrong side is liable for 3 (4?) time the stump value in NY. You can Google these two things. Also worth taking a couple PICs for the record.

How many PP did you have to get 3H?

Yup I went from an average buck size of 80 LBs before AR to 133 LBS after ARs. There is meat in places I have never seen on the yearlings. We even got a 2.5 year old that was 165 LBS. Can not wait to get a 3.5 year old in the 180-200 lb range. Still do not know how to score antlers but it is clear how much more space each deer fills in the freezer.

Well I did do something to get different results- supported ARs which have been adopted in my area. Now I see adult bucks, now if you folks to the North West, where I also hunt would do the same we could stop talking about this and talk about how many nice bucks we are seeing and harvesting. Whether you like it or not human nature is competition for scare resources unless regulations are in place. That is why so many yearling bucks get harvested. I get the feeling your in some are with a lot less hunters. It is funny that you uses the below quote. It is the same quote used by the DEC when tell us why we should adopt AR at a public meeting in 2003. “It’s just like the definition of insanity.." doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

Hey John, I know of a small but hardly use backhoe that is on a kubota of that size for sale and I know of a monster JD backhoe for sale in the area not much $$. How big are the trees?

No it is a case of if I do it alone it will have no effect but if we all agree to do it by setting a regulation or law it will work great. When something does not work there is no reason to do it. I harvested yearling bucks before ARs because there were no adult bucks. No choice yearling or no deer. Now with ARs I harvest adult bucks and do not shoot the yearling that have 3 points because I know there are adults to be harvested.

Steve you are right voluntarily antler restrictions do not work in NY and the majority of hunter do not practice them. However the majority supports modifying the existing antler restriction law of one 3 inch antler to an antler restriction that protects yearling bucks from harvest

Doc said: "To me that is not support, that is just saying something for the only purpose of sounding politically correct and saying what they think thier peers want to hear them say. " In the privacy of their own homes they answer a question: Do you support a regulation to protect yearling buck from harvest with manitory antler restrictions? Now when the DEC asks you if you want Manitory ARs in your hunting area and you say yes in writing that is real support and a real request for the AR. That is adhering to your beliefs and practicing what you preach! There are no peers around doc to create peer pressure to say you want ARs. That is just hooky. Hunters want better hunting and Yearling buck protection results in that and they have stated so in writing to the DEC.

DOc Said "and that almost all of the deer that they see will be illegal to shoot" How do you make that leap?- the first year maybe but after that you see more bucks and just as many if not more legal to shoot bucks. That is what folks in the AR areas have found.

Ok here goes the majority of hunters in NY and 67% in the recent expansion area ALL SUPPORT A REGULATION THAT ADOPTS MANDATORY ANTLER RESTRICTIONS to protect yearling bucks from harvest by adult hunters. They want the same rule for all. Hunters know that if they pass up a buck another hunter will shoot it. I have watched it happen to me and so have many/most other hunters. The proof that other hunters are not passing up young bucks is in the high yearling buck harvest. The DEC survey found 72% of hunters’ believed that if they pasted up a small buck voluntary that another hunter would kill it. The thinking is that if a buck is going to a freezer it might as well be mine. Remember 85% of the hunters do not get a buck so your asking for a lot of people to past up the buck. SO BOTTOM LINE IS THE MAJORITY OF HUNTERS WANT A REGULATION (LAW) THAT APPLES TO ALL ADULT HUNTERS AND THAT WE CAN ALL ABIDE BY TOGETHER. It is kind of like fishing- once a fish hits the limit it goes in the cooler at least for most. I am sure somewhere in the big woods or on some huge property you can let a buck go and it will make to the next year but in most of NY there are enough hunters and the bucks move sufficiently to result in the majority of yearling bucks being harvested.

It is thousands for each statewide survey. I have no idea where you’re getting that number but it is not from the several statewide surveys that I am referencing. You know there is a science to surveys and they usually predict very closely what will happen in an election or how people feel on an issue. If anything I would say the DEC 2010 Survey understates the support. In that survey there is also a fair percentage that are neutral so would be fine with adopting the program. Support has absolutely grown over the last 10 years with everyone hearing about the success in NY and in other states.

Hunters number one satisfaction is see deer and seeing bucks. If hunters were only hunting to harvest a deer we would have no hunters as the vast majority of hunters do not harvest a buck each year. So where there are no doe tags because the population is below objective that is what has to be done to protect the resource. Hunters would still like to see and harvest more adult bucks that is what Yearling Buck Conservation does. Our tag system is selling a dream. Very few, ~15% harvest a buck, a tiny present harvest two bucks LEGALLY and a small hand full fill the 7 to 9 deer tags available to them. Better buck hunting draws in hunters on the fence and otherwise. If people are seeing nice bucks before season they plan to be out hunting. If every one is saying not many bucks around, then fewer hunters head out. We need NY to provide the best buck hunting now so that our existing hunters spread the enthusiasm to those on the fence and new hunters as well. How many years in a row hunters happy killing a small spike? Seeing and harvesting a variety of adult bucks leads to hunter satisfaction and increased participation.

I do not know how many people were surveyed by the DEC and Cornell but I do know how they took the cross section of folks to do the survey on and it was appropriate and statically valid. As for the NYS Conservation Council I do not know how they picked the people to survey but when you have sportsmen themselves, Cornell and DEC all coming up with similar numbers doing different surveys it lends a lot of creditably. Sounds like some antis would not believe the support it no matter what it was. There are a bunch of other sportsmen’s surveys out there that show even higher support as well. I know since I am in an AR area that people have gone from rabidly anti to in favor and supportive of ARs. I can not say that will happen to you for sure but I know how much my hunting improved and find it hard to believe that someone will be mad when they are seeing more larger and older bucks and harvesting the same. Let face it everyone would chose to harvest the bigger buck if they had a choice. It is just tradition and experience in NY that confuses the issue. I am very interested to see if those in opposition on this board change there tune once area are in place for a couple years in their hunter area. Doewacker- how long have you been on the site- you have a lot of posts!

Well it makes sense to look at yearling buck harvest so that we know it is too high in that area and results in too few adult bucks to in the population. Yearling bucks are yearling bucks- the difference is that some areas produce larger yearling bucks. That is why the AR needs to be set by biologist for that area to protect the yearling bucks. Still need to think about it in terms of protecting yearling bucks. Let see the DEC and Cornell have done surveys in 2009, 2006 and 2010 and the NYS Conservation Council Survey 2007 all show that the majority of hunters in NY want yearling buck protection with antler restrictions.

So what you’re saying is that because you do not want it the majority of hunters should not have it either. Why should a small minority fight against better hunting for all hunters? What I am saying is once you have it you will change your mind and realize that all this angst on your part was unnecessary. What WMUs are you in and what WMUs do you hunt in?

ARs were instated by Regulation in 2005 and 2006. Then many sportsmen’s groups were promised them in the 7 new units if they did a list of tasks requested by the DEC. These tasks were done and then the DEC refused to go forward after the public comment. The real issue was changes at the top and retirements of quality staff. The women in charge wrote a memo to the commissioner that was all her personal opinion which no science or facts saying not to adopt it. As you would expect all the federations and sportsmen who had been working on this for years were pissed off. Then DEC staff told sportsmen and political representatives that it should be done legislative. So that the women in charge would not have to make a decision and could say it was not me. So in 2009 it was done by legislation in the southern part of 3A. Then this year the DEC adopted AR by regulation in 3A and 7 other units. 67% of the hunters were in favor of ARs in those areas. And the majority of sportsmen are in favor in the whole state. I expect even those who yell and type their opposition to ARs on this and other sites will come around. I know folks that yelled bloody murder at the federation meetings who now say that they were wrong and that the ARs are great. It is unfortunate that we can not transport them in to the future of their hunting area once ARs were implemented. I guess this is growing pains. The conflict just is not necessary and that point of view is spreading.

OK Once again- we are looking to protect an age class, yearling bucks, so that we get adults in the population. The only reason we talk about antler is because that is how we can determine the Age in a practical way. That is why 3 points would not accomplish the goal of protecting yearling bucks in any area north and west of where the current AR area is excluding the Dacks. Either 4 points on a side or more effective a spread restriction would be required. That is how yearlings would be protected and the harvest would shift to the 2.5 and 3.5 + bucks. Here is a link. Look at the bottom there is a DEC map on the number of points to protect 67% of yearling bucks http://www.nyswmc.com/protecting-yearling-bucks/ Btw I spoke to some people in the AR area and they are seeing all kinds of bucks- Really big bucks all very happy. Out by john B a guy told me he saw 5 bucks together each one was bigger that the next.

What ARs are saying is do not shoot yearling bucks and three points on a side is a quick rule of thumb as to what is a yearling in the current AR area. In the area that has ARs in NY 3 points protects 70% of the yearlings. And hunters finally have a choice of adult bucks. Hunters do not end up harvesting lots of yearling bucks with 3 points. Only 15% of the harvest is yearling bucks in the AR areas and that includes the youth hunters who can kill three inch spikes. I know that lots of those 3-4 point yearling bucks survive because I see them after the hunting season. Before ARs when we could feed the deer I never saw small racked or any buck after season even with feed.

Deer hunters are a dieing bred in NY- literally. The average is 52. In 1982 we had 900,000 Deer Hunters now we have 566,000. Now over 300, 000 are above 52 years old. That means we are going to lose 53% of our hunters in the next 10+ years. Not much of a voice left for hunting and the remaining hunters will not be able to control the deer population. Hell yes we need a PR campaign which I have told the DEC and ……… They (DEC) put out a publication for youth about turkeys and the restoration via the conservationists. And I heard it went to all 4th graders in the state. It was a several page magazine WHICH DID NOT MENTION HUNTING OR THAT HUNTERS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TURKEY RESTORATION AND THAT WE FUNDED THE WHOLE THING. TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE! There should have at least been a paragraph about a kid that went turkey hunting and love it and a place where kids could learn more about turkey hunting and how to get started. Doing nothing now is unacceptable; they have known since 1982 that we had a problem and nothing done…