mike rossi

Most people will connect this to hunting and hunters. And that is not entirely without merit. Many hunters discard carcasses in this manner. Many hunters litter in other ways, including the crap/toilet paper debate we had on here. Then as a group we turn around and complain about access to private land. Makes me laugh because some hunters complain, claim they are from the farm, the antis are city people who don't own property, etc... But no farmer or landowner wants carcasses dumped on their land unless it is their personal cattle boneyard... Introduce me to the farmer who wants carcasses dumped on their property - I thought the coyotes and crows were out of control and hunters were the (heroes) to the rescue of the people of NY? Dumping 200 carcasses doesn't draw coyotes and crows? This had too many things with the word 'hunt' in it: game farm; game dinner; bowhunting organization. These were grown men. Plus the fire men who transferred the birds are questionable. 200 left over birds for a game dinner? Do you know how much a game farm pheasant costs? It is required by law to have a receipt, when the birds are alive at least, possibly when they are dead too, but I am not sure. Many questions here. It seems every time hunters congregate they get into trouble. The Holly squirrel competition and the Greene County Crow Down have generated national attention and TWO legislative bills in NY state. Those bills might not go anywhere - but not only did they achieve action in both houses, those bills have multiple cosponsors. Maybe you all are more successful than me, but I cant get 99% of the lawmakers to read an email I send them, yet the antis get quick and serious action. Another example of the same exact thing is the two mute swan bills filed when the DEC announced its management plan for comment... I admit the NYS Trappers convention in Frankfort has fur handing demos every year, and no complaints have been made about disposal or anything else (to my knowledge). There surely are other 'group activities' which do not ire the public majority. But often some of them do. Another thing to look at is the age of the offenders - I believe they were in their mid - fifties and assumedly club officers. Perhaps they also served as hunter education instructors and/or ran youth outreach or their club does. Is this the blind leading the blind? All they had to do was put the carcasses in a bag and put it in their (own) dumpster or garbage can or take it to the municipal dump - end of story. Another thing: its one thing to breast a bird or two - but when you are talking 200 birds you are leaving A LOT of meat if you only breast the birds or take only the breast and legs. These are precisely the type of hunters that talk about all this experience they have and how they got the world by the tail but don't know squat. I think right now - March 2014 we are experiencing a rash of bad public relations we have not seen for some time. As a result the anti-hunting movement is profiting and expanding. We have irked people with Onondaga lake - including the way the local news reported the situation; hunting contests; the federal sportsmen's heritage act; the Conservation Councils stance on Quiet Waters; Finch Land: and the reintroduction of Gray Wolves and other issues they support, oppose, or drive. Meanwhile most of us act like we are the majority and we hold the cards, well we don't.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/96187.html

Note the bold type above. Where are the hunters? They want to hunt the lake. This news column has already irresponsibly stirred up a controversy about this, when an opportunity of cooperation surfaced no less, but he decides to create conflict or lacked the sense to realize that is what his reporting did in fact do.

This is why the DEC and FWS must educate the public majority if they are going to continue to encourage them to go outdoors. Technically, this person can be charged with hunting out of season and I am fairly sure hunting without a license. Don't argue with me, I know the legal definition of hunting, she was hunting. This happens all the time and when your out there hunting with your own dog and someone thinks its a dog park, and wants your dog to play with their dog, it is a hassle. Nobody really gives a rip until one of these pets gets caught in a trap, and then all hell breaks loose.

Doc, they think if you agree with being law abiding and/or ethical that you are a "high horse".

Recapt... Generally target shooting is allowed on NFs, but it varies on each tract so you need to call the USDA National Forest Service Regional Office that covers the land you are interested in. Some national forests have additional restrictions that reach farther than the general regulation(s). The USDA Forest Service has their own law enforcement officers ( federal rangers) and I would talk to them. There also might be an inconsistency between NYS En-Con Law and USDA Forest Service Regulations governing the taking of non-game. I am not positive, but red squirrels very likely are considered non-game, despite the fact that they are unprotected wildlife in NY and can be taken year-round in NY under NY state En-Con Law. I would ask a USDA Forest Service ranger about taking red squirrels or any other unprotected wildlife on USDA FS Lands. Although I have no personal desire to take red squirrels on USDA FS Lands; I would be interested in what you find out and from whom, so please let us know what you find out. As a final note: an "inconsistency" doesn't mean you can pick the law that fits your personal agenda. Always err on the side of caution and follow the more restrictive law.

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Doc, I doubt the purpose of this was to "hear from sportsmen" - it was an "informational meeting" and it was only two hours long, lol... I also want to dissect out what you said here: "hear from sportsmen". Do you believe that click (who are also politically appointed like the commissioner) represents the concerns and values of 800,000 NY hunters? They don't represent me, do you feel they represent you? Also, rather than rip at the governor again, what do you think of this journalism. I think it sucks and is a waste of time to read. It is pointless drivel and serves no purpose and provides no information. Try ripping at the author, Dave what's his face. And maybe ripping the the attendees of this senior citizen get together...

All I gather from this wandering ramble of an article is that the DEC held an informational meeting (read - remedial tutoring) for the same bunch of loud mouths that run the show or think they do. Plus a state copper was present to lolly-gab about the safe act... Big effin deal. Closed doors, off course, as if it was something worth opening the doors for, lol... Mid day on a Friday, prolly looked and sounded like a nursing home with a security guard....

I dont remember, maybe the US Forest Services website, but if you go to the US code section 16 part I cited above you can read the law pertaining to target shooting on national forests and grasslands. It MIGHT just mean don't shoot animals unless you are legally hunting, but that is NOT how it reads. Taken verbatim it says what it says... However I am not positive about the classification of red squirrels and the others , whether they are game or non game... I am a little busy, maybe someone else can look it up and post the link or source.

Yeah, that's the point, the law doesn't say in "express terms" you can take non-game wildlife even if they are unprotected such as the ones you listed. Unprotected does not always mean it is classified as game, even if it is unprotected. I would prefer to err on the side of caution until I got an official to clarify it. Not sure where you are going with it being in NYS and all, but I will take a crack at answering it: The state or a tribe can set laws more restrictive than federal regs, but not less restrictive.

I don't know about that on National Forests, refer to number 4: You can target shoot on national forest lands unless a specific area has been closed to the activity because it jeopardizes public safety. Information about closures is available at each district office. When target shooting, Forest Service regulations prohibit discharging a firearm: 1. In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, 2. Across or on roads or bodies of water, or where people or property are exposed to injury or damage, 3. Into a cave, 4. Causing resource damage; don’t shoot trees, rocks, stumps, non-game animals. Violation of these prohibitions is punishable by a fine of not more than $5,000 for an individual or $10,000 for an organization, or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both (16 U.S.C. 551, 18 U.S.C. 3559 and 3571).

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by "mother nature"... Yes, this years record ice cover (might) be thee only reason for starvation, but as Doc and a few others said, why doesn't a bird, particularly a bird known for migrating, just move on? Valid questions about one of the best-known ways some birds deal with 'mother nature'. The easy answer is yeah, mother nature sent an unusually harsh winter and the birds starved. That may or may not be the complete story. Everybody's level of interest or curiosity about the situation is different, sorry to offend you. Even some people on here who ordinarily don't think about ducks, are still thinking, what the heck is going on, ducks migrate when its cold. Maybe they want to hear a few guesses, they sure aren't getting solid info from the news papers, unless they are reading different ones then I am.

You might have figured out a lot with what you said here. If these docks are shading plants in the summer and maintaining them in the winter with bubblers keeps them open all winter, they may be creating what is known as 'environmental traps." On a big enough scale, that might explain a lot of things - even scrawny scaup in Canada during nesting season... You should shoot some video or pictures and write up what you said here. I can find out who to pass it too if you want.

That is a lot of mergansers. I don't know if their populations are on the rise or not; but something reducing or impacting habitat elsewhere, or interfering with their use of other areas, might funnel them to your area. I don't know if you are suggesting the mergansers are becoming overpopulated there to the extent they are starving to death, but if that is so, the situation will correct itself fairly quick. Since mergansers and other 'piscivores' forage much differently than 'pochards'; there is nothing linking the abundance of forage fish to the starvation of scaup and other birds. And there certainly is no link to fish populations and non-piscivorous birds. Just an FYI: this becomes a fisheries conservation discussion, not a wildlife conservation discussion, when we start talking about birds impacting fish. Some biologists say the opposite, that it is fish impacting water birds of all sorts, not the vice versa. That is ok when we talk among ourselves, but I caution sportsmen from being outspoken about this with comments to newspapers when the topic is bird conservation.

I my opinion you and your son would derive more satisfaction from self learning on public land. Not to be condescending, but do you in fact mean rifles opposed to shotguns? I am a little confused as to why you bought rifles if you live in Westchester? Perhaps pick up a couple used 12 gauge single shots and hunt closer to home? If you hunt in the greater NYC area, however, I suspect you will deal with many hunters on public land. Dilemma I guess... Good choice starting with big game hunting. Small game hunting is more equipment intensive and you really need a dog as well - something you must care for 365 days a year.. With deer, all you need is a gun, a box of ammo, some orange clothing, a knife, and your license. If you do pick up a couple 12 gauges you might also get in on May turkey hunting. (Rifles are not legal for turkey hunting in NY) Spring turkey hunting is also a popular season and public lands can be crowded during this season as well. Additional equipment would be camo hunting clothes instead of orange, a turkey call, and something to keep the bugs off you. I caution you to check the regulations about turkey hunting on long island however, I believe only youth hunting for turkeys is allowed on LI, so your son can hunt but you cant. I don't know if this restriction is still on the books or even if it is true, I am not from the area. Good luck, hope this helps!

Tough winter no doubt about it. What happened before January and/or when the birds where somewhere else might be a factor in why some of them cant hang onto life. That was my point. Also, I don't see the wisdom in running bubblers when the food supply is exhausted. Especially true with calendar migrators in the spring. Did anyone don scuba gear and prove all the zebra mussels are eaten up? I am sure with less open water and more birds in a smaller area there is less food to go around. Plus the birds need more fuel to keep warm while working harder to get any amount of food. But this all started months ago, somewhere months ago some of those birds have already been compromised by ecological impacts and insults. I am not saying this is not an extreme winter and/or that some winter kill does not ordinarily occur. I am saying that the mortality is greater because of other issues. This is why biologists always stress ecology and controlling the variables that can be, because of variables like bad winters which cannot be controlled. As a waterfowler it would behoove you to pry deeper into how things operate as an ecological system. I am not trying to deride you with this, I am just pointing out that this is more complex than too many birds over a patch of open water running out of food. I actually am more alarmed about how the newspapers reported this, allegedly quoting someone from the DEC, than I am about a single event of winter kill. This is an example of a bad event which can be used as an opportunity to educate people with the 'visible proof' that is widely demanded. I think some useful news articles can have been generated by this but they were not. As a matter of fact, the two articles I have read about this, contained a lot of erroneous information.

You need to explain what you mean by 'mother nature' if this doesn't answer your question. Specifically regarding the continental population of scaup; there are many theories and off the top of my head all of them blame anthropogenic (man-made) factors. I suspect you mean weather? One of the theories is climate change, but it doesn't deal with whether climate change is man - made or not. If you simply mean back to back harsh winters, but not necessarily involving climate change, I don't believe anyone suggested that. If we have a repeat of this year once or twice and populations decline even more, then point the finger at the obvious, but that still would not explain the prior 20 years or so. I am not aware of all the birds involved. I heard red breasted mergansers and scaups mentioned, both which are declining in numbers. I don't know the situation regarding RBM, but I know that in some states they are doing ok, but that is not the case in NY. I am familiar with the situation involving scaups. Scaup populations have been on the decline for about 20 years and this has been widely researched. All that has been determined for sure is that the birds, especially hens, are arriving at their breeding grounds in poor physical condition. The body condition of nesting birds is known to regulate population size. So it is pretty much accepted that the decline of scaup populations is due to reduced spring time body size; but exactly what is the cause (of reduced body weight) is not known for sure. As I said, there are a number of theories, all of which are reasonable, and off course it is possible that there are more than one of the theories operating. Remember, it is only speculation (and mine at that) that the same body condition issues scaup are suffering might also be operating with other birds. My premise actually is pretty weak, because the variety of birds use different habitats over a calendar year, forage differently, and eat different diets. Not all of the birds found dead have been known to be declining in abundance, and that also might be inconsistent with my speculation. But knowing that scaups go into the spring partially starved or at least lean and needy is my justification for suspecting this is linked.

Another thing, this is spring migration, not fall migration. Those birds know that the further they are from their northern breeding grounds the bigger the risk they have in losing their territories or not finding the best nest sites. Birds generally breed in the north, so they might hold on a little more stubbornly in the spring rather than turn around. They all want to get to the north first. In the fall they might not be as willing to stick it out when the weather gets tough.

No, actually some of the birds are on the decline.

Despite the news reports, not all the species found dead are piscivores (fish eaters that chase fish); and some can dive very deep. Some of the birds found dead both eat mollusks and plants, but favor plants in the winter. Since plants need sun light, shallow water may be more important for foraging on plants than it is on fish and other invertebrates. It is not proven certain birds must eat plants, but it is believed plants are a more valuable winter food because of carbohydrates. When the winter is harsh there might not be as much wiggle room for an inferior diet. Most of the effected bird species are calendar migrators which move in response to day length rather than food supply as mallards and Canada geese do. This doesn't suggest the calendar migrators will not move if they cannot access food. I am sure they were finding food, but requiring more and working harder for it. Another thing to look at is the long term trend in reduced body weight in scaups during spring migration. In this harsh weather, the compromised body weight might have done them in. Possibly other species found dead have the same issues going on as scaup, but it has not yet been discovered. It is not hard to believe starvation if you consider the calendar migration behavior; the harsh winter,and the poor springtime body condition identified in scaups. Harsh winters and other eruptive "events" that result in die-offs often have some ecological link. No doubt poor body condition increases winter kill. There are a dozen or so ecologically based theories about why scaups have been suffering from weight loss in the spring. There is not a consensus as to the exact cause and nothing is definitive. What started as an inquiry to declining scaup populations discovered something has changed in the system which is impacting body condition thereby impacting reproduction and survival. Important to note the findings ruled out predation. It is also important to note that the data collected on scaup, a game species, was driven by harvest reporting and other surveys, and this information may be useful in monitoring the welfare of non game birds.

Have a talk with your wife about hoplophobia and how her condition might effect your children. Suggest she sees a therapist. Family counseling may also be needed...

Post number 2 put it off topic, that was my point in post # 3. It is about the use of $6 million dollars that (reportedly) is being used to increase sporting opportunities.

Your answer: I will not vote for Cuomo or Trump. Depending on what I learn about Astorino, I might vote for him, or I may not vote at all if he turns out to be a dink, which he probably is. Fred Theile, is a lawmaker who has sponsored numerous anti hunting bills and is endorsed by several anti-hunting organizations. Thiele recently sponsored a bill which restores the age for senior hunting licenses to 65 instead of the new age of 70. I forget if Thiele is an assemblyman or a senator but the respective bills are A-7299 and S-5133. How do you feel about that grand standing?

Doc, I wrote Cuomo's office and called there in opposition to the safe act. I also contacted a number of lawmakers about it. Did you? If we got $6 million dollars to play with and its truly is all about sportsmen, I don't know about you, but I could manage that money a lot better than by funding the projects listed. I think when something like this emerges, and the first and only thing sportsmen do is worry about grand standing, its clearly showing something is seriously wrong. Apparently some feel it is necessary to call attention to the grandstanding every time it occurs, I guess that is OK. However, why is it important the next generation of hunters continues on the same path? I don't think anyone needs to be told not to vote for Cuomo, what is the point of ignoring the wasting of 6 million dollars? They know Cuomo is bad news but they do not pay attention to the money and do not understand they are getting screwed, and will continue to get screwed, no matter who is in office, until they lobby for sound wildlife management, stop second guessing the DEC, and stand up to CFAB, the County Federations, and the Council.