Curmudgeon

C'mon. That is on its face a false statement. Do some research.

I should stop email notifications for this thread but with you guys pulling these huge red herrings out of your pockets, I think I best keep monitoring it. Cats are a non-issue for the scavengers we are discussing The same for building strikes. No one wants you to return to the stone age. We want you to leave the early 20th Century behind and join us in the 21st.

Rob - I am not going to spend much time here. I may get back to answering other's questions next week, especially if the weather stays bad. I saw the text of your response in an email notification so will toss you a few bones including the images you asked for. If you really want information on why this lead came from bullets and not the public water supply, google something like "bald eagles, bullets, lead isotopes". You'll come up with a lot of stuff like what I am going to paste in from The Raptor Center below the image. I get a little tired of spoon feeding people who claim they want to learn something. Unfortunately, the physiology of raptors means they regurgitate solids. That means, unless an eagle, or other raptor dies very quickly, there will be no fragments. Having said that, here are photos of bullet fragments from 4 different eagles, one X-rayed with lead in situ. The X-ray came from The Raptor Center. The others from NYSDEC. Bald eagle numbers are estimated to be about 1/3 of what they were at the time of European settlement. They are increasing. I don't know a single hunter who is also a conservationist, who believes nothing should be done about these poisoning until there is a population level threat. And, there may well be a threat of that magnitude to golden eagles in eastern NA. If you don't want to be quoted, I suggest you don't post stuff on the internet. Study points to spent lead from deer hunting as primary source of lead poisoning We then conducted another 13-year (1996-2009) retrospective study of lead poisoning in bald eagles to test the hypothesis that spent lead from ammunition in the carcasses and gut piles of white-tailed deer is an important source of lead exposure. In this study, we analyzed four epidemiological parameters: Seasonal prevalence and relationship with the onset of deer hunting season in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa Correlation of animal recovery locations within deer-hunting zones Lead isotope ratio analysis of metal fragments recovered from the gastrointestinal tract of lead-poisoned bald eagles and lead levels in their blood Comparison of kidney copper concentration in lead-exposed and non-exposed eagles The results of our 13-year retrospective study showed: A statistically significant seasonal and geographical association (p<0.01) between the incidence of eagle poisoning and the onset of deer hunting season and hunting zones was present. A majority of cases occurred during late fall and early winter, with a significantly higher number of poisoned bald eagles recovered from the deer hunting rifle zone Most of the paired blood-fragment samples have a closely matched isotopic signature, thereby demonstrating that ingested lead was the source of lead found in the bloodstream. The majority of the blood and fragment samples collected from lead-exposed eagles was within the isotope ratio from ammunition samples reported by Church et al. (2006). The kidney copper concentration was significantly higher in lead-exposed eagles (p=0.002), implying the ingestion of fragments from copper-jacketed lead bullets. About 75% of the lead-poisoned eagles were adult, or breeding-age, birds. While there is conclusive evidence that spent ammunition in deer remains is a significant if not primary source of toxicity, there is direct evidence also that some cases of poisoning are due to shotgun pellets that may be embedded in small, upland game such as pheasants, squirrels, and rabbits that may be wounded and subsequently consumed by eagles. There is also anecdotal evidence that lead residues left in the carcasses of coyotes may be yet another source. These results strongly support the hypothesis that spent lead from ammunition is an important, if not the primary, source of lead exposure for bald eagles. Armed with these findings, we have partnered with The Wildlife Society to promote education among deer hunters and encourage voluntary adoption of non-toxic copper ammunition. The Minnesota Deer Hunter’s Association has been receptive to this approach and has published several articles on the subject in Whitetails magazine. While there is growing understanding in the deer-hunting community as well as many anecdotal reports from hunters who have switched to non-toxic ammunition due to this five-year educational effort, the overall admission rate of lead poisoned eagles is unchanged. Much more work is needed to effectively remove this toxin from the food source of eagles.

I'm never going to get caught up here. Sorry guys. I have an impending deadline for an article on this topic for Northern Woodlands. It will appear in the fall/September issue if any of you are subscribers. That, and an avian impact assessment for a new, large wind project in western Broome County are sucking up all my spare time at the moment. Rob - Thanks for calling me "far left". That's precious. I'm going to share it.

Rob, I have a bunch of other comments to respond to here when I find the time. I just want you to know you got me to smile this morning. Things are nuts and people need a distraction. Some even watch sports and go to the theater. Thanks

In my second photo, the bird with the tracking device, the one whose head you cannot see is an adult golden eagle. There is a great size range within both species so size isn't a good way to ID them.

Thanks. Great shots. Keep them coming. The dark bird in your photo is a first winter, juvenile bald eagle. They are easily confused with golden eagles. I am including a couple of photos goldens and bald togethers. Note the blond head and nape on the golden in the first photo. They also have considerably smaller heads, proportioned like a red-tailed hawk. Bald eagles have big, sea eagle heads. This golden is young, hence the white base on its tail. Adults are all dark, as in the second photo. The close bird in the second photo is a golden we put a tracking device on in 2014. The device - which is visible in the photo - failed. I can ID her by comparing her tail to old photographs. Too bad you can't see her head. You can see how similar the plumage is. Here are also some of raven remains, collateral damage from having scavengers concentrated when some of them are predators.

That response was to Chas. Rattles just showed up.

I am not advocating the FWS ban or any other. There are 2 debates, 1- how significant is the Pb threat? 2 - what should be done about it? There is less disagreement here than you might think. My primary complaint is denial by those who perceive this as some sort of anti-gun, anti-hunting issue. For most of us, it is neither.

Rattler - I'm pleased you read the paper. Lead ammo has not actually "been taken out of the (condor) equation". It has been reduced. It is noteworthy that the ban in CA has reduced lead levels in both Turkey Vultures and Golden Eagles. The condor situation on its face seems confounding. The excerpts below from https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/06/endangered-california-condors-still-face-lead-poisoning-threat/ is helpful in understanding the situation. "The researchers are currently evaluating the ineffectiveness of the ban so far, including a look at whether hunters are fully complying with the new rule. Myra Finkelstein, a University of California-Santa Cruz researcher involved in the project, told Ars that “even if only a few people are still using lead ammunition, there will be enough contaminated carcasses to cause lead poisoning in a significant number of condors. We found that over the course of ten years, if just one half of one percent of carcasses have lead in them, the probability that each free-flying condor will encounter a contaminated carcass is 85 to 98 percent, and one exposure event could kill a condor.” "But how can we be sure the lead in those condors came from ammunition in carcasses and not some natural source? To see, the researchers measured the lead-207/lead-206 isotopic signature in 132 blood samples. Of those samples, 79 percent were consistent with lead ammunition and 27 percent were within the range of “background” ratios in captive birds (there’s some overlap). Several birds had isotopic signatures similar to lead-based paint, and had been observed roosting in an old fire tower with peeling lead paint."

Pistol - The late December goldens might still be migrants but they could be winter residents. Please post some of your photos.

Philo - I've heard this before. To say it was done for "anti-gun reasons" is just reactionary. When I first engaged in discussions on lead ammo on this forum, I was actually accused of being an anti-hunter. I find it to be so much nonsense, but unlike Belo I will keep arguing. It helps that it is a rainy day. I am hunter/conservationist who thinks most scavenger poisonings are absolutely unnecessary. I have personally dealt with lead-poisoned eagles. It appears you deny that wildlife and health concerns are sincere because those concerns - if accepted - open up some threatening possibilities. While the antis will use any tool in the box, the effort to remove lead from the environment and the food chain has engaged many hunters. I have pushed for an educational approach, resisting the efforts of allies who want a ban. Still many hunters still don't understand the issue. That's why I responded as I did initially, explaining that yes, non-lead bullets are available for those who choose to use them. I think it was the second post but I don't want to go back a page to check. I find it really unfortunate that NRA and NSSF continue to deny clear science because acknowledging it "might lead to a ban". It undermines their credibility.

If if really wasn't to know about the science, read the paper in my previous post. It is actually an examination of the science. That was the point of making it available.

I'm in my 60s Belo and I know a little lead won't affect me. Stick a fork in me. However, non-target wildlife and small children need not be exposed to lead unnecessarily. Rob and Rattler are completely correct when they say it is political. They see it as one sided but the science is settled. For anyone who really wants to understand the reasons that we are still debating this issue, read the attached paper. It is titled Health and Environmental Risks from Lead-based Ammunition: Science Versus Socio-Politics. LeadHealth and Environmental Risks from Lead-based 2016 eco health.pdf

Wow! Red herring!

So Belo could have qualified it a bit but he isn't wrong. There is no doubt that lead poisons non-target wildlife. There is no doubt it gets into human food. You can debate how bad it is. You can debate how much lead in humans is acceptable. You can take the NSSF position that bald eagles are increasing as a justification for doing nothing. Most people do not want any lead in their kids food or water. They do not want to sicken and kill scavengers. I am a conservationist, and I hunt with others who feel the same. I only use lead at the range, and where I have not found an acceptable substitute. Even then, I take great care to remove any potentially tainted meat, and I bury the remains. Most of the debate has nothing to do with the facts and everything to do with politics.

Yes, and some of us will use nothing but non-lead for deer hunting. There have been numerous threads on this topic on the forum over the past couple of years. Every major manufacturer has a line of non-lead center fire ammo. The cheapest I have found for my .270 is about $28 a box (Federal Power-Shok Copper).

Kids........... Forget The Edmund Fitzgerald. You need to listen to Canadian Railroad Trilogy.

As wolc said. Some of you are "sports". Some of us are just doing what our ancestors (and wolves) did before the word "sport" was invented.

So, if hunting is a sport, when did it happen? I, or should I say we, were preceded by 1000 generations of hunters. None of my ancestors considered it a sport.

Those hawks have good hunting skills. A hawk that failed to quickly kill or control the squirrel would likely end up removed from the gene pool.

So, if hunting is a sport, when did it happen? I draw a line back to my Sami ancestors. For them it was no sport.

Whenever I ask the deer that question, they are mute.

I agree with First-light. Hunting is much too serious to be a sport. It can be a way of life. It is highly social. It is certainly part of my household economy. I might find it educational and spiritual. A sport? I don't think so. Hunting puts me in a ecological niche. I am the apex predator controlling the burgeoning deer population. I am working cooperatively with family and friends to feed our families. I am helping the native vegetation. Sport? Fooey!