Upland Species Under-gunned

[scolopaxmatt]

A quick read from Ultimate Upland comparing funding and membership of species specific conservation organizations.

 

http://www.ultimateuplandnews.com/conservations-invisible-birds/

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts and comments.   

[scolopaxmatt]

Oh right.  This is forum for deer hunters. 

 

Slay on slayers!

[jjb4900]

yes, it's pretty sad that the amount of hunters who are involved with organizations that support the upland game they pursue pales in comparison to the actual number who hunt them........and I'm sure the same holds true for deer hunters as well.

[mike rossi]

I am trying to figure out what thoughts and comments you are soliciting, because the article is pretty cut and dry.

 

These organizations have the same credibility challenges as do state agencies such as the DEC, although they don't suffer the politics or the fractious nature of hunters and other members of the public with different passions and ideologies. I disagree with the author that two hunters disagreeing on a setter or a pointer or 12 gauge versus 20 gauge, is fractious in the context that it effects contribution to conservation organizations, thats ridiculous.  

 

Most hunters are not connected to the land so they don't understand what is going on with natural systems. On top of that , generally speaking hunters, for a variety of  reasons that  differ person to person, do not readily respond to educational outreach, therefore they do not readily learn about natural systems. Then the phenomena of " memes" is a serious problem plaguing the hunting community. ... A "meme" is an idea that spreads person to person within a culture. Memes are plentiful, persistent, and prolific in the hunting culture....

 

And a good number just do not care. They are not interesting in sustaining a species or the tradition of hunting it. Their attitude toward hunting is so casual that they figure if hunting is no longer viable, they just will find something else to do.

 

I am not suggesting that it is impossible or impractical to build these organizations. However, it is hard work and success rate is very low compared to effort.

 

One thing that is likely to get lost in both the article and our discussion here, is that these organizations are extremely effective at their current funding levels. These are not organizations that should be considered small potatoes. The main idea of the article I am understanding, is that relative few hunters are supporting these NGOs and the potential to do much more exists. No argument with that....  

[scolopaxmatt]

The main idea of the article I am understanding, is that relative few hunters are supporting these NGOs and the potential to do much more exists. No argument with that....  

 

I think that's the main idea.  There's some background noise about a federal upland stamp, but that idea has been around since Frank Woolner and most likely before. 

 

I thought there was an interesting correlation implied in the graphs that ties into the federal upland stamp business.  Per the graphs wetland habitat has the most money thrown at it, mostly through sales of the federal duck stamp.  It's attendant organization, DU, wins the funding war and wetlands are protected or restored.  And so the duck population is the only species on the graph to see an appreciable increase. 

 

I think the author is suggesting that a federal upland stamp could work the same magic for my beloved grouse and woodcock as well as pheasants and quail.  I'd be all for an upland stamp, but I think it would be a tough sell.  There's no doubting the federal duck stamp puts money to work and gets results.  I would think the same could be true for other habitats. 

 

As for input I guess I was curious if others supported upland organizations and if they felt their dollars were being utilized effectively. 

 

And how about an upland stamp?  Anyone else willing to pay $25 extra bucks to get skunked all season?

[mike rossi]

I think that's the main idea.  There's some background noise about a federal upland stamp, but that idea has been around since Frank Woolner and most likely before. 

 

I thought there was an interesting correlation implied in the graphs that ties into the federal upland stamp business.  Per the graphs wetland habitat has the most money thrown at it, mostly through sales of the federal duck stamp.  It's attendant organization, DU, wins the funding war and wetlands are protected or restored.  And so the duck population is the only species on the graph to see an appreciable increase. 

 

I think the author is suggesting that a federal upland stamp could work the same magic for my beloved grouse and woodcock as well as pheasants and quail.  I'd be all for an upland stamp, but I think it would be a tough sell.  There's no doubting the federal duck stamp puts money to work and gets results.  I would think the same could be true for other habitats. 

 

As for input I guess I was curious if others supported upland organizations and if they felt their dollars were being utilized effectively. 

 

And how about an upland stamp?  Anyone else willing to pay $25 extra bucks to get skunked all season?

 

Ducks Unlimited and the Federal Duck Stamp have started about the same time. Since then, Ducks Unlimited actually has conserved slightly more wetland acreage than the federal government. 

 

Upland organizations certainly use donor's money wisely and are indeed conserving a significant amount of upland habitat. 

 

I can see an upland stamp being viable in the future, but have not seen good proposals so far. I don't know if you realize it, but phrasing your question: "Anyone else willing to pay $25 extra bucks to get skunked all season"? is a leading question, a misleading question at that...... 

[Curmudgeon]

Oh right.  This is forum for deer hunters. 

 

Slay on slayers!

 

I pretty much only hunt deer these days, and that is limited, but hunting birds - especially with a dog - is a whole lot more fun than deer hunting.

 

Most hunters are not connected to the land so they don't understand what is going on with natural systems. On top of that , generally speaking hunters, for a variety of  reasons that  differ person to person, do not readily respond to educational outreach, therefore they do not readily learn about natural systems. Then the phenomena of " memes" is a serious problem plaguing the hunting community. ... A "meme" is an idea that spreads person to person within a culture. Memes are plentiful, persistent, and prolific in the hunting culture....

 

 

Wow. Great quote but likely to draw some heat.

 

[scolopaxmatt]

I can see an upland stamp being viable in the future, but have not seen good proposals so far. I don't know if you realize it, but phrasing your question: "Anyone else willing to pay $25 extra bucks to get skunked all season"? is a leading question, a misleading question at that...... 

 

Yeah I suppose I didn't paint that one as pretty as I should have.  I was referring specifically to grouse who seem to have my number.  

 

I agree that upland organizations are indeed effective.  I'm just imagining how much more effective they could be would increased funding.

[mike rossi]

  I'm just imagining how much more effective they could be would increased funding.

 

When NGOs partner with GOs, ie. the RGS and the DEC; the NGO puts up donor money, the GO puts up license revenue plus PR grants. Not unheard of for NGOs to get public grants, but they do not get license revenue.

 

I cant see congress creating a mandatory federal stamp which distributes the revenue generated to private organizations. This is part of what I meant by the proposals have not been good. The people pushing for the stamp seem a little confused or I haven't been paying enough attention to them, which is very likely too I am busy and got my own agenda. 

 

Generally, NGOs raise their own private money, do their own fundraising. Sometimes they leverage their funds with public grants and/or otherwise partner with GOs. Other times they do their own conservation projects without any public agencies as partners...

 

If you are confused, I tell you so am I.... Just what are the proponents of a federal upland stamp proposing? 

[scolopaxmatt]

When NGOs partner with GOs, ie. the RGS and the DEC; the NGO puts up donor money, the GO puts up license revenue plus PR grants. Not unheard of for NGOs to get public grants, but they do not get license revenue.

 

I cant see congress creating a mandatory federal stamp which distributes the revenue generated to private organizations. This is part of what I meant by the proposals have not been good. The people pushing for the stamp seem a little confused or I haven't been paying enough attention to them, which is very likely too I am busy and got my own agenda. 

 

Generally, NGOs raise their own private money, do their own fundraising. Sometimes they leverage their funds with public grants and/or otherwise partner with GOs. Other times they do their own conservation projects without any public agencies as partners...

 

If you are confused, I tell you so am I.... Just what are the proponents of a federal upland stamp proposing? 

 

So then sales of the duck stamp go into a federal fund designated specifically for wetland protection/restoration?  That makes sense.  I would think the same could be done for upland habitat.

 

As to specific proposals, I haven't heard or seen one.  Mostly it's just chatter, most of which essentially sounds like a desire to carbon copy the duck model.  I first came across the idea in Frank Woolners "Timberdoodle" which was published in '74 I think.  He seemed to think it was only a matter of a few years.  But, here we are. 

 

Truth is, I am very confused.  While hunting and fishing aren't particularly complicated, the legislation allowing and surrounding them and how these come to be sometimes baffles me. 

[mike rossi]

So then sales of the duck stamp go into a federal fund designated specifically for wetland protection/restoration?  That makes sense.  I would think the same could be done for upland habitat.

 

As to specific proposals, I haven't heard or seen one.  Mostly it's just chatter, most of which essentially sounds like a desire to carbon copy the duck model.  I first came across the idea in Frank Woolners "Timberdoodle" which was published in '74 I think.  He seemed to think it was only a matter of a few years.  But, here we are. 

 

Truth is, I am very confused.  While hunting and fishing aren't particularly complicated, the legislation allowing and surrounding them and how these come to be sometimes baffles me. 

 

Duck Stamp revenue goes into the federal migratory bird conservation fund. This fund is used to acquire wetlands as well as uplands where many migratory birds nest. Nothing is kicked back to the states as in the Pittman Robertson program nor are funds handed over to non government organizations. Ducks Unlimited raises about the same amount of money as the duck stamp program. 

 

Upland organizations raise a lot of money too. And an federal upland stamp can add to that, but how would it be administered?

 

The FWS administers the duck stamp program as they do the PR program. However, the management responsibility or jurisdiction of the FWS is migratory wildlife and threatened/endangered wildlife. Other wildlife, such as unlisted upland game, is the responsibility of the states.  

 

If the FWS starts to acquire priority upland habitat, then do they inherit the responsibility of managing it? Upland species thrive in ephemeral habitats - that means habitats that are temporary unless they are managed. Without management these lands will lose their ability tom support upland species. 

 

Or, is the idea to model the federal upland stamp after the Pittman Robertson Program and redistribute the money back to the states? I don't want to say that is not possible, but there are some issues. Each state would have to amend their assent laws to protect these funds from sweeping by the Legislature. Does New jersey get the same amount of money as Kansas - how will the distribution be handled? A lot to iron out.....

 

Not saying to give up on a federal upland stamp, it intrigues me too. But in the meantime maybe start a chapter. I suggested to Bill Smidt he sarts a NWTF chapter. Maybe you can start a RGS or AW chapter. I heard that it can take many years of holding fund raising banquets before any revenue is generated and that chapter success depends on sticking with it. I heard some guys hold one or two banquets and give up.... It is my understanding it takes some time (years) and effort to get corporate sponsors to donate guns and other prizes and also time to get people involved.... 

[scolopaxmatt]

That's some good food for thought Mike.  I certainly won't give up on the idea of an upland stamp, but in the meantime an RGS membership is what I can do.

 

But, if we're dreaming, I could throw out an overly simplified proposal here in this thread given a little bit of time.  I'll look around some and see what's out there in the way of real proposals as well. 

 

As always, thanks for the pertinent discussion and good luck with the doves!