Another Gut Pile - Bone Yard - Scavenger Thread

[Curmudgeon]

At home things have been boring. Boring if you consider it's just eagles and ravens. Oh, and an occasional skunk. I've got one golden eagle coming in - you've seen it - but it generally feeds alone without any drama to make the photos more interesting. Here are a few recent shots.

 

[helmut in the bush]

Cool pics

[Curmudgeon]

It's been quite a while since I posted any photos. I was traveling and then got involved in surveys for wind project. Here are just a few photos I consider special from the late season.

There are regular questions about what it a juvenile bald eagle, and what is a golden. I encounter that question all the time. This first shot shows both in their most similar plumages. Ignore the size difference. Size differences between these species are more a matter of what sex they are than the species. Notice the heads especially. Bald eagles have big heads and big beaks. Golden eagle head are sized proportionally similar to red-tailed hawks. Golden eagles have iridescent gold on their heads and napes. Also notice the bleached upper wings on the golden eagle. This is noticeable on all goldens after they are a year old. Before that, their backs are chocolate brown.

Bald on left, golden on right.

Raven with white primaries. It is a young bird. Since it is unique, we may be able to identify it if it returns.

Putty

Red-tailed hawk

Coyotes dreaming

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Curmudgeon
forgot something

[Woody Meristem]

Good comparison photo of the eagles. That raven is something special, just about as good as a band. I assume you've read "The Mind of the Raven" and "Ravens in Winter" by Bernd Heinrich -- if not, they're well worth reading to understand more of those fascinating birds.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

It's been quite a while since I posted any photos. I was traveling and then got involved in surveys for wind project. Here are just a few photos I consider special from the late season.

There are regular questions about what it a juvenile bald eagle, and what is a golden. I encounter that question all the time. This first shot shows both in their most similar plumages. Ignore the size difference. Size differences between these species are more a matter of what sex they are than the species. Notice the heads especially. Bald eagles have big heads and big beaks. Golden eagle head are sized proportionally similar to red-tailed hawks. Golden eagles have iridescent gold on their heads and napes. Also notice the bleached upper wings on the golden eagle. This is noticeable on all goldens after they are a year old. Before that, their backs are chocolate brown.

Bald on left, golden on right.

Raven with white primaries. It is a young bird. Since it is unique, we may be able to identify it if it returns.

Putty

Red-tailed hawk

Coyotes dreaming

 

Does the state  give you all these road killed deer for this Vermin pile?

[helmut in the bush]

Cool

[Curmudgeon]

3 hours ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

Does the state  give you all these road killed deer for this Vermin pile?

Look at the size of the pelvis next to that eagle. Have you ever grown a deer that big on your deer farm?

[Curmudgeon]

5 hours ago, Woody Meristem said:

Good comparison photo of the eagles. That raven is something special, just about as good as a band. I assume you've read "The Mind of the Raven" and "Ravens in Winter" by Bernd Heinrich -- if not, they're well worth reading to understand more of those fascinating birds.

Loved the Heinrich books. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Look at the size of the pelvis next to that eagle. Have you ever grown a deer that big on your deer farm?

So you are saying there are no road killed deer on any of the piles the state gives the Ok to be used for the Eagles and such?

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, there are road-killed deer too. The state doesn't "give" them to us. They issue a license to possess them. 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

Oh, there are road-killed deer too. The state doesn't "give" them to us. They issue a license to possess them. 

 

Thats the same as giving their Ok.   Just wondering if the Lawsuit that Pa has going on for doing the same stupid thing will spill over into Ny.   Nothing like saying they are trying to stop/beat the spread of a disease better than giving people untested deer to be ate by Vermin and Birds to be shit the Prions all over the countryside.  

I mean its only been tested proven vector of spread of the CWD Prions.    I would bet Ny will be brought into the same lawsuits being a common border.  As it should be.

[Curmudgeon]

Red-herring, again! Everyone knows the responsibility for CWD rests squarely on the shoulders of you deer farmers.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Curmudgeon said:

Red-herring, again! Everyone knows the responsibility for CWD rests squarely on the shoulders of you deer farmers.

Ya i guess we all know that agenda pushing statement is far from the truth.  Can only keep an eye on sky to see where this turns out. Seem's Pa had the same thoughts and now may have to answer the bell.

One thing that is 100% fact is that the CWD prion has been found in every kind of Vermin and bird crap proving it to be one of the biggest spreading machines out there so i would be pretty safe in saying that this proof that Ny state supports the feeding of untested animals to possibly spread disease all across the country will be at the top of the list in their lawsuit. 

If you were a true hunter that you say you are---Eye's roll here--- you would not agree to this operation but i guess if the next case of CWD hits the local woodlot many hunters will have plenty of time to discuss it.

[Woody Meristem]

2 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

Everyone knows the responsibility for CWD rests squarely on the shoulders of you deer farmers.

From PA - "A deer that originated from a Lancaster County breeding farm now under quarantine tested positive for Chronic Wasting Disease after being harvested in a Wisconsin hunting preserve, according to the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture."

More from PA - "Twenty-seven deer from a Bedford County deer farm have tested positive for chronic wasting disease, the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture announced."

'Nough said.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Woody Meristem

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, Woody Meristem said:

From PA - "A deer that originated from a Lancaster County breeding farm now under quarantine tested positive for Chronic Wasting Disease after being harvested in a Wisconsin hunting preserve, according to the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture."

More from PA - "Twenty-seven deer from a Bedford County deer farm have tested positive for chronic wasting disease, the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture announced."

'Nough said.

Yeah after it flew in from Maryland right next door.  If you are going to bring up the handful on a farm why dont you throw the numbers that were found in the wild before the farms were found?

Maybe explain the 200 plus cases found in the wild in West Virginia yet never one found on a farm?

Maybe explain the nearly 600 cases found in the wild in Illinois yet never one found on a farm?

Nough Said?   I can go on if you like?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

From PA - "A deer that originated from a Lancaster County breeding farm now under quarantine tested positive for Chronic Wasting Disease after being harvested in a Wisconsin hunting preserve, according to the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture."
More from PA - "Twenty-seven deer from a Bedford County deer farm have tested positive for chronic wasting disease, the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture announced."
'Nough said.

. This is Pa's DNR showing how much they really care about the spread of CWD in their state. Open dumpsters like this all across a positive state? Yup that's trying to put a stop to the spread of something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Curmudgeon]

While I have trouble respecting someone who calls shooting livestock in a paddock "hunting", and who considers eagles and hawks "vermin", I'll indulge the deer farmer for a few minutes.

You are terribly concerned with 4 people in NYS who have licenses to possess road-killed deer for scavenger research. Those deer used by those 4 licensees can not compare to the number of deer that are put on the landscape by coyote hunters. Every road-kill picked up by my town, and by county crews in the western half of this county, goes to coyote hunters employed by those governments. State DOT does cooperate with us. Otherwise, we would get none. The local state crew stage deer nearby for me. If I was not using these carcasses, they would be hauled 2 or 3 times as far for disposal, in a place where they would not be buried until spring. So, our use of these deer limits the movement of carcasses, as opposed to worsening it. They have been hauling deer there for over a month, since my season ended.

Extrapolate the number of deer used as bait by coyote hunters in this part of Otsego County to the whole state and you have a situation that is a couple of orders of magnitude larger that what I do. Then consider that ECOs - if my local guy is at all representative - don't give a hoot about the coyote hunters using the deer as bait. Have you ever heard of a coyote hunter ticketed for possession of a road-kill? There is no enforcement. If you are really concerned, and not just reacting to me and my values, you should start a campaign to change coyote hunter practices.

The lead-sickened bald eagle that died 2 years ago after being GPS tracked to where it was stuck blinded by PB, fed along with another dead eagle on a huge quantity of butchering remains spread on land behind a deer processor in Delaware County. These deer came from where? Some were certainly local but who knows?

Now, re the PA and WV CWD situation. You claim CWD is spread by birds in their feces after they consume soft tissue. Maybe its true. Generally your "proof" is self serving but I am indulging you. So, go back to page one where I posted a photos of the gut pile from the first of my deer last year, it disappeared in just over 4 hours on November 8. These were not ravens attracted to a bait pile. They were just the normal background number of ravens.

Deer season in the fall coincides with the southwesterly migration of large numbers of raptors and scavengers. Eagles number in the tens of thousands. Count Buteo hawks, vultures and ravens into the mix and you have hundreds of thousands of scavenging birds moving SW at the same time the landscape is covered with gut piles and unrecovered carcasses. If CWD is being spread by bird feces, the situation is hopeless. The disease will move SW steadily with the migration, worsening year after year. We know the eagles are feeding on them from having tested their blood lead levels. How do you propose to keep the hundreds of thousands of food sources away from the hundreds of thousands of birds? Birds that have been cleaning the landscape of such matter since before humans inhabited the continent. 

Winter resident birds on the other hand, have found a steady food source and hardly move at all. Basically from feeding site to roost, or in the case of ravens, to caching sites and back. GPS data backs this up.

So, if you are right about birds and feces, the CWD situation is hopeless. And, it is a hopeless situation that your industry is responsible for creating. Who knows, with the excessive populations of deer in the east, and a lack of large, effective predators, it may be Mother Nature figured out a way to solve to the deer problem.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

7 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

While I have trouble respecting someone who calls shooting livestock in a paddock "hunting", and who considers eagles and hawks "vermin", I'll indulge the deer farmer for a few minutes.

You are terribly concerned with 4 people in NYS who have licenses to possess road-killed deer for scavenger research. Those deer used by those 4 licensees can not compare to the number of deer that are put on the landscape by coyote hunters. Every road-kill picked up by my town, and by county crews in the western half of this county, goes to coyote hunters employed by those governments. State DOT does cooperate with us. Otherwise, we would get none. The local state crew stage deer nearby for me. If I was not using these carcasses, they would be hauled 2 or 3 times as far for disposal, in a place where they would not be buried until spring. So, our use of these deer limits the movement of carcasses, as opposed to worsening it. They have been hauling deer there for over a month, since my season ended.

Extrapolate the number of deer used as bait by coyote hunters in this part of Otsego County to the whole state and you have a situation that is a couple of orders of magnitude larger that what I do. Then consider that ECOs - if my local guy is at all representative - don't give a hoot about the coyote hunters using the deer as bait. Have you ever heard of a coyote hunter ticketed for possession of a road-kill? There is no enforcement. If you are really concerned, and not just reacting to me and my values, you should start a campaign to change coyote hunter practices.

The lead-sickened bald eagle that died 2 years ago after being GPS tracked to where it was stuck blinded by PB, fed along with another dead eagle on a huge quantity of butchering remains spread on land behind a deer processor in Delaware County. These deer came from where? Some were certainly local but who knows?

Now, re the PA and WV CWD situation. You claim CWD is spread by birds in their feces after they consume soft tissue. Maybe its true. Generally your "proof" is self serving but I am indulging you. So, go back to page one where I posted a photos of the gut pile from the first of my deer last year, it disappeared in just over 4 hours on November 8. These were not ravens attracted to a bait pile. They were just the normal background number of ravens.

Deer season in the fall coincides with the southwesterly migration of large numbers of raptors and scavengers. Eagles number in the tens of thousands. Count Buteo hawks, vultures and ravens into the mix and you have hundreds of thousands of scavenging birds moving SW at the same time the landscape is covered with gut piles and unrecovered carcasses. If CWD is being spread by bird feces, the situation is hopeless. The disease will move SW steadily with the migration, worsening year after year. We know the eagles are feeding on them from having tested their blood lead levels. How do you propose to keep the hundreds of thousands of food sources away from the hundreds of thousands of birds? Birds that have been cleaning the landscape of such matter since before humans inhabited the continent. 

Winter resident birds on the other hand, have found a steady food source and hardly move at all. Basically from feeding site to roost, or in the case of ravens, to caching sites and back. GPS data backs this up.

So, if you are right about birds and feces, the CWD situation is hopeless. And, it is a hopeless situation that your industry is responsible for creating. Who knows, with the excessive populations of deer in the east, and a lack of large, effective predators, it may be Mother Nature figured out a way to solve to the deer problem.

See there you kinda hit the nail on the head......The lawsuit is starting in Pa and will likely come this way.  You see when they say a deer farm in the state is shut down and depopulated or shut down with no movement because of a disease that is found in wild and on farm but yet allow the feeding and spreading of untested animals to wild birds and vermin which has been 100% proven----I am sure you have already googled this-- to be one of the biggest vectors of moving the prions around the countryside then there is a problem.  

When you have a state that shuts down the borders for deer movement between states because of a disease because there is a chance of moving a disease yet they allow the feeding of untested animals to another large vector of proven disease movement. When in fact the farms in these situation are 10-15 years of animals being tested negative for any disease yet the wild herd outside the fence have been determined positive for the same disease.

You see the problem is not with you feeding the birds the remains yet it is a problem with the state giving you untested deer to feed the birds or to any person any road killed animals that have not been tested negative first.

The lawsuits are filed on the double standards being used by the states against the industry.  We all know that the agenda against the high fence industry is because of the amount of money that is being taken from their coffers because of the fact that hunters do not need to buy their tags to hunt the private lands. Its always been about the money and the disease is just the scapegoat they have tried to use all these years. This is just an ongoing lawsuit going from state to state after a couple years ago the state of Iowa was sued by a farmers and ended up paying the farmer millions in restitution and was proven that the state could not make the farm keep their fences up to keep wild deer out after the state destroyed all the farm deer.  Backfired on them and now the industry is footing the bill from state to state with the lawsuits.

Its obvious that you dont keep up on the disease movement and the vectors but now in some states the law was written by USDA that a deer farm had to leave their fence up for 5 years and could not use that land for anything, Now there were never any rules against a property outside a farm when a positive deer was found, Now courts are saying that that is far from right and are saying that if that can be held against a farm then any surveyed piece of property that has a positive found must also be fenced with 8ft fence and put on the deed that a disease has been found on said property because it may effect future owners.  You can only guess how much shit that has stirred against the private landowners and they are not real happy about said possible rulings......Double Standards again you see?

So its not you or the birds or the vermin that is the real issue....Its just that your activities and the backing by the state is part of the double standards.

[chas0218]

16 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

Extrapolate the number of deer used as bait by coyote hunters in this part of Otsego County 

Here is the thing, those deer that the coyote hunters use are usually from the same area the deer were killed at least in my area on the corner of Steuben County, Schuyler and Chemung. As much as I like to see your photos there is a problem with the way DEC is doing it. If they found roadkill with 5 miles of your property than sure why not but to have them trucked from all over the county is bad business and will eventually lead to the spread of CWD. I would rather see the farm deer with CWD than wild deer. Imagine the spread you would have from a wild deer vs a farm deer. Coyotes, and birds of prey have a huge range making it a lot harder to contain and stop the spreading compared to farmed deer. That is common sense but we know how much common sense comes to play in Gov't agencies. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

8 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Here is the thing, those deer that the coyote hunters use are usually from the same area the deer were killed at least in my area on the corner of Steuben County, Schuyler and Chemung. As much as I like to see your photos there is a problem with the way DEC is doing it. If they found roadkill with 5 miles of your property than sure why not but to have them trucked from all over the county is bad business and will eventually lead to the spread of CWD. I would rather see the farm deer with CWD than wild deer. Imagine the spread you would have from a wild deer vs a farm deer. Coyotes, and birds of prey have a huge range making it a lot harder to contain and stop the spreading compared to farmed deer. That is common sense but we know how much common sense comes to play in Gov't agencies. 

The biggest issue is the double standards....States shut down their borders to farmers from selling animals from farm to farm that have been tested for a minimum of 5 years and most are 10-15 years tested. Yet states are relocating Elk into CWD free state from CWD positive states and say they are tested?  Now mind you the USDA does not support any live test yet the test for the Elk is accepted yet there is no farm that can use the same test.

The feeding of birds and vermin of untested deer is playing with a much bigger fire then moving a deer from a 10 year tested deer farm.  Its all agenda drivin and has been from the jump but now with the industry is finally fighting back the double standards and as shown with the Iowa farm these judges are being shown the double standards and ended up costing that state millions.

I kinda like the bird and some of the other critters pic's having a feast but if the state is going to allow that action then all animals must be tested first, That cost $$$ and we all know where that will end.

[Curmudgeon]

I pulled the camera on the bone yard today. It had been a while since I checked it. Not much was happening. I did find a couple of interesting shots. A fox is looking longingly at the skeleton of one of last fall's does. Also, what is almost certainly a barred owl.