Doc

It's funny that 50% of the time we anguish over how long gun seasons are and the effects on the deer herds, and the other 50% we argue for extending the seasons so we can get out there and get more deer. Can't seem to make up our minds can we?

They may recognize a "difference between something that has been there vs. something that is there", but the question is how do deer process that information and do they associate danger to both circumstances. I believe they do. Here is an example that I have seen more than once. On my way into the stand, I step across the trail. Not the best thing to do, but in some of the multiflora rose thickets, My entrance path in is not always optional. The deer comes along, and encounters where I crossed the trail. The deer imediately bolts and leaves the area. No, my scent was not blowing in that direction at that particular time, but I had been there. That was all the deer had to know to get the heck out of there. Example two: I go to a stand and decide the wind is not at all what was advertised and move to another stand on the other side of the trail. As oftens happens, the deer doesn't use the trail at all, but rather comes in from another direction. Gets near the stand that I had just vacated and immediately focuses on that direction, complete with the foot stomping and head bobbing and all, totally aimed at where I was, not where I am. Eventually, the deer ran off snorting and carrying on like a crazy thing, without ever offering a shot. Example three: I use a fairly well used trail (heavily tracked) to reach a particular stand. After several days, I notice that the trail now seems abandoned. I never encountered the deer, but they obviously reacted to the fact that I had been there. That is something that I have experienced many times to the point where now I am very careful not to use deer trails as any part of my travel to a stand. Also, I have read countless times about deer patterning hunter movements and perfectly good areas being screwed up because of that. That is not a result of the deer spooking from your direct presence, but simply the fact that you have been there one too many times and left scent telling them that. Example four: Several years ago, I decided to use one of my junk arrows to take a practice shot from my stand ........ just to stay limbered up in the cold, and maybe I have to admit to breaking up a bit of the boredom. Of course I avoided shooting to the trail that I was watching and picked a spot off to the side. Shortly after, a tiny doe came along, and veered off the trail and headed straight to the arrow. A couple of sniffs on the arrow, and she almost turned herself inside out trying to get out of the area. Of course she was snorting all the way warning every other deer in the area .....lol. But the point is that the reaction couldn't have been any worse if I had hollered at her or been actually spotted. The scent on that arrow was enough to tell her to get the heck out of there. Example five: Ever get one of those deals where you would swear the deer had a sixth sense and just got the hell out of there in a hurry for no apparent reason? You were completely concealed. The wind was straight in your face while the deer was coming in. You made absolutely no sound. And yet the deer stopped. Ears started working. Nose went up in the air while he was testing the air currents for scent. And finally off he went without even getting close enough for a shot. I have had this happen a couple of times, and I have heard quite a few others relate that same scenario. Sixth sense or was it just a reaction to some scent-laden goldenrod from a time or two when there was a quick back-blast of air that swirled a while ago? So anyway, I am convinced that they do react to older scent. These few incidents have shown me that it doesn't have to be scent going directly from me to their nose in order to serve as a clear warning. And so it does make me curious about why deer would even consider grazing casually in my yard. And by the way, in answer to your question, yes I have had situations where direct confrontation in my yard was almost ignored by deer. A couple years ago I had 4 deer that were munching on some expensive shrubs in the yard, and I opened the door expecting them to get the heck out of the yard. But instead they stood there staring at me like a bunch of dummies. I waved my hand around and they still ignored me. Finally I started talking at them and they acted like they were just putting up with me until I went away. Finally I took a few steps in their direction and that did it. They all finally took off, but didn't go all that far before they stopped and stood there looking back toward the yard. This was right after gun season had just finished. If they had been in the woods, there is no doubt in my mind that they would have bounded away the first time they were aware of my presence. So, I have to believe that they do get an understanding of where scents are safe and where they are not. And some of that has to be instinctive since I have seen yearling deer react in those same ways. It doesn't seem to be that they have to have countless episodes of reinforcement to learn these things. So some of this weird deer behavior sure does make one curious about what goes through their minds (and why). I am convinced that not only do we have to understand the science of scent, but we also have to understand how deer process those scent messages. It's not always all that obvious.

That's basically the same concept, just a different way of going about it. This "square-up thing uses the same principle of spreading out a front and rear sight so that misalignment due to torque becomes obvious. I kind of like that kind of sight design.

Go to : http://www.fws.gov/ . That is the National Fish and Wildlife Service web-site. On their home page, they have a link along the left side that can be used for e-mailing questions. I would assume it is their responsibility to administer and enforce rules and regs on huntable U.S. lands.

Ok, the figure strikes me as being a little bit high, but if that is a DEC number, it probably is quite accurate. So now I wonder just what that number would represent in "saved bucks" if a one buck rule were imposed. 5% statewide really doesn't strike me as significant enough to cause anyone to really detect a difference. Hardly worth the effort of going through the legislative process.....lol. Meanwhile, I think just the possibility of taking a second buck, regardless of how slight, may improve hunter participation and satisfaction even for those that are not successful in doubling up. I don't know, to me a "one buck rule" seems like something with very little pay-off and perhaps more of a dis-incentive to hunters than actually something that is going to make much of a significant difference in buck population.

Here's my theory ...... and that's all it is. I believe that "stronger" scents stay more active (dense) farther and longer. To relate that to our level of sensitivity to odors, I can smell skunk urine a lot further away and for a lot longer of a time than I can other weaker scents. So yes, your natural human scents are heading for the deer, but the intensity and density of cigarette smoke is something that will make the scent stream hold together in a more detectable form for a lot further into the woods, and will remain in a lot more detectable form a lot longer than normal human scents. The only thing that I have no way of knowing is what a deer thinks when they encounter the smell of cigarettes. Do they actually interpret that as a danger sign? Are they confused at all. We know there is nothing about human scent that confuses them ...... lol.

Did that 5% figure represent the number of hunters that take multiple bucks, or what was the significance of that number?

Ok here's something else to add into the discussion..... Just about every year, right after gun season has concluded, I will see deer or see their tracks where they have walked within a few feet of our front door and fed on the hedge there. The various human scents that come from around that doorway don't seem to bother them a bit. I have even seen where they graze on the lawn right over where the dog has taken a leak. They just don't care. And this right after having been harrassed in the woods by gangs of hunters for the past bunch of weeks. So if proximity is the key, they just couldn't get much closer to the origin of hazardous scents than these pretty blatant examples. Just the other afternoon I had 5 deer milling around the yard casually grazing, and once again, they weren't a very long ways from the front door. And this before the season was even over. I think there is a lot more to this deer alarm vs. scent proximity that we even have a clue about. And I think some of it might be the fact that they understand when scent is in a dangerous location or in a place where they are quite accustomed to encountering it without any harm. So not only do we need to understandmore about the science of scent, but apparently there is a bit of deer psychology relative to reactions to scent that we don't completely understand.

All is better now! they came back. 133 pictures on one camera in 4 days. They're pretty much the same deer over and over, and they didn't bring any bucks with them, but at least there is some sign of life now. Also, a couple of afternoons ago there were 5 nice sized does grazing in my front yard, just a couple dozen yards from the house ....... almost 4:00 in the afternoon. So they finally figured that hunting season was pretty much over for this year and it's time to get back to normal. It's nice to know we haven't hunted them to extinction here.....lol.

Well, it happens. I get the same thing during the early bow season when some of the small game hunters decide to sit down a short ways from me and shoot the woods up trying to get a few squirrel. But really, it's not something they are doing on purpose, and it's just one of those unfortunate things that happen on any open or public land. Sure I get mad. Not so much at them as at the stinking luck that put us both in the same corner of land. I get the same thing with mountain bikers, and hikers. There's nothing you can do but mutter a few swear words under your breath and hope that it doesn't happen again. Of course you mentioned that they knew you were there. That's a different situation and involves hunters displaying a total lack of hunting etiquette. Again there is nothing much you can do about it other than move. There always will be some people that don't have a clue about decency. That's just the nature of people. Crawl a little deeper into the land parcel, or choose another place to hunt that may not be so popular with the crowds. Other than that, public lands are what they are and some of those aggravations always seem to come along with that.

This is one of the better articles on a deer's sense of smell. It concentrates on emphasizing the amazing sense of smell that the deer has, to the point where it seems impossible to fool that old nose if your wind is taking a direct path to their nose while they are coming in. The real mystery for me though is what scent warnings do we leave when the wind no longer is blowing in their direction even though at some point during our stand there was a quick swirl in the direction we are hoping the deer will be coming from. We have all felt that temporary back-flow hitting the back of our head for a few minutes before going back to its primary prevailing direction. We know that for those few minutes, a stream of scent molecules went out into the woods in a very unfavorable direction. We know that that scent gets deposited on natural items along the way. What we do not know is how far it goes, what strength do these scent bundles have, and are those deposits enough to warn a deer. In other words, just because the wind is in our favor 90% of the stand, is that enough or are there scent bundles far enough out and at adequate density to mess things up? Another question that might be asked is, "are these little incidental deposits of scent responsible for what some people swear is a case of deer having a sixth sense?" Sometimes I wonder.

One of the best articles on the science of scent occurs at: http://www.uspcak9.com/training/scent.pdf This Article doesn't mention deer at all, but relates to a dog's sense of smell, and more importantly eventually deals with the physics of scent and it's movement at the body and beyond. Of course they could have gone even further, but it is the first information that I have found that actually talks about the physics of scent movement, and dispersal and effects of weather, aging, etc. The whole discussion leaves me wondering just how wrecked a stand might be when that wind takes that temporary detour in the direction that a deer comes from. Some of the things talked about in this article really make you wonder. There is so much more to learn about this aspect of scent, and it seems that dog owners and breeders are the only ones interested enough to do some serious research. And so that is the direction that my searches for scent articles will be going toward from now on.

1-buck ..... shotgun ...... 8N

There is no comparison between the favorable conditions that farm raised animals have vs. the conditions that wild critters endure. Yes, the chemical composition of their foods is basically the same, but the difference is that those elements are provided for the domestic animals in recommended quantities and mixtures where critters in the wild foraging for themselves get what they can, when they can, and if they can. Domestic stock has no winter lean period of browsing on twigs and other non nutritional food resources. Absolutely genetic engineering is important in producing large antlers, and that is genetic engineering that never happens, and never will happen, in the wild. And while it's true that there is no "special powder" the fact that domestic deer benefit from being fed a regular, guaranteed, nutritious, diet in a year around fashion along with providing necessary minerals most likely makes any comparisons between wild deer and domestic deer not quite a true apples-to-apples comparison. The differences in the lifestyle between domestic and wild deer is huge as would be the case of any wild animal versus any domestic farm raised animals. And yes, I agree that NYS has the capability of growing some heavy horned deer. We have seen them. But if you are implying that what is being cranked out in some of these "freak farms" is something that can occur in a natural state, I guess I can't really agree with that regardless of how old we let them get.

Actually, from what I have read, you don't even have to physically touch stuff out there. Your body, breath, clothing, and such are constantly shedding scent bundles called "rafts" which travel through air and attach themselves to anything that they hit along the way. Scent molecules are capable of being deposited on branches, weeds, dirt, leaves, or any thing that they come in contact with. How long those scent clusters stay attached in a strength to be detected is something I have not yet been able to find any info on, but apparently it is a function of scent strength, time, distance from the source, wind speed (turbulence), and weather/atmospheric conditions. It's a whole science that few researchers are willing to write about. It's too bad because we hunters sure could use a complete understanding of that sort of thing. I have been wandering around the internet trying to find info on the subject and have found that it is pretty darn sparce.

Lol..... Maybe I should have stuck with it and tried a bit of the late archery season. I would have done good hiding along side of the barn. 5 does grazing in the front yard yesterday afternoon. They don't even know there's a hunting season still going on. Well, I guess I've had enough for this year. Tomorrow I'll get the shotgun cleaned up and put away for the year and start organizing my critter calling stuff.

I have seen videos of genetically engineered deer that have grotesque antlers of unbelievable size. And yet in all the years of records keeping throughout history, no one has ever shot any wild deer that even came close to these manufactured freaks. I've got to believe that there is a lot more than mere age that has gotten these genetic creations to the ridiculous stage of antler development that they have concocted on these deer farms. In fact, in extreme advanced age of deer, the antlers even begin to regress.

Some day I would really like to learn more about is the nature of scent dispersal whether that scent is smoke, or just simply any scent that might begenerated from a stand. Obviously, if the wind is blowing directly toward the deer, most likely the hunt will end badly. But my points of curiosity are relative to what happens when you get that occasional swirl or back-flow of the breezes. We know what will happen if the deer is standing there when it happens, but I have always been curious about scent molecules that may travel randomly around my stand into places where I would rather they didn't. I know that scent molecules adhere to things. Just cross the deer trail on your way in and check out the reaction of an incoming deer when he crosses your scent trail. What I don't know is how much scent is deposited when that breeze takes a momentary turn. Does it make a difference whether the wind is quite calm vs. blowing strongly? How far out is scent deposited? How long does it stay there? What are the effects of weather on those scent molecules? What is the change in width of the scent stream as it gets farther away. What do we know about the changes in density of a scent stream as it goes farther away? In other words, when that errant blast of wind covers the area that we expect the deer to come from, what damage has been done? We all devote a lot of time and research to our hunting, and yet we do not understand much about the effect of that occasional swirl of the wind. Probably we mostly assume that as long as the wind isn't pointed at the deer , all is well ...... but is it? I know it can't be reduced down to numbers, but it sure would be nice to know a little something about the properties and behavior of scent molecules. For something that is so darned important to us, there sure seems to be precious little discussion or literature about it. Maybe if we knew more about it, it would clarify this discussion on cigarette smoke.

This is exactly what a buddy of mine from highschool an I did on my very first deer hunt. It was great fun. We didn't even have a tent, and built a very tight small structure from saplings, and pine boughs. It was pretty primitive. We even dined on a squirrel cooked on a spit over the fire. It had the consistancy of shoe leather..... lol. We weren't all that far in (up the hill behind the house), so we weren't too strapped as to what we could take. Your proposed adventure sounds like it will take a lot more planning....lol. If it were me, one item I would take along would be some kind of communication device (cell-phone?) so that if an emergency were to come up you might have a chance of getting some help. I think it might be a good idea to check on-line for back-packing tips and techniques. You know...... some clues about weight and bulk concerns so you don't start dragging everything from home along with you. Might not be a bad idea to keep in mind that anything that you get will have to be packed back out along with whatever you take in. What you didn't say was how far you intend to go and what the terrain might be like. That makes a huge difference as to what you lug along.

I have to ask, was the wind in your favor or theirs. Sometimes you could be sitting there with with a pile of pastrami sandwiches and if the wind is right (and stays there), no deer will ever smell them, old or young. I believe that smoking could only be a detriment if the smoke is going to the deer, or if it has periodically been dispersing into a direction that the deer walks through. That second scenario is a little more tricky as I have not run into too many people who are competent to discuss the nature of "broadcasted" scent, regarding the distance, duration,intensity and effects of weather conditions on scent particles that have been temporarily sent over grass, branches, weeds, dirt, etc. However, I do think there is some scent deposited when a wind does one of those famous back-drafts. How strong it is or how far out it goes is anybody's guess, but it would seem that the stronger the scent (such as cigarette smoke), the more damage that might be done by those occasional directional switches in terms of giving those deer an early warning. I often wonder just how many deer I never got a chance to see back in my smoking years because of an invisible early warning system that may have drifted out through the woods.

Somebody want to catch me up and tell me where this 5% figure came from? I missed it. Is that some kind of DEC stat?

Don't we have an antlerless permit system that is based exactly on the same thing? ..... and for the same reasons.

It does kind of cheapen the rarity and challenge of legitimately getting a "decent" buck when there are people out there that are raising (manufacturing) these kinds of grotesque monsters. Yes, I realize that the records keeping organizations have restrictions of fair chase requirements to try and maintain the validity of true honest hunted animals. Still it seems that these versions of "Frankendeer" have a negative reflection on the natural quality of true wild animals. Obviously there is a market for the semen of these animals, and eventually it would seem that the end result would be for some guy with deep pockets to harvest a genetically manufactured deer, and place the mounted head in his trophy room with any story attached to it that he wanted. I probably have less quarrel with the guy who raises and develops these genetic monsters than some of the end users of his product. It just seems a shame that there really is a market for this kind of thing and that anyone who calls themselves a hunter would engage in this strange practice of creating your trophy. I don't know, I probably am in the minority with that attitude, but I am still a believer in hunting the species the way they have developed in nature. I have no interest in buying a manufactured trophy for my wall or for any other purpose. To me that cheapens the whole activity of hunting.

Does NYS have laws against wasting wild game meat the way Canada does? I've never seen it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Regarding the reply that asked about DEC regulations against improper meat treatment, maybe if there is a law against wasting meat, there might be some sort of connection there ........ but I doubt it. I have seen some deer hanging so long (weeks) that I just know that they eventually had to throw it out ....... or at least I hope they did.....lol.

I think you have to be careful about coming up with hard and fast conclusions based on a few incidents experienced throughout a lifetime of hunting. Weird things do happen in the world of the whitetail. Such odd experiences happen just frequently enough to confuse people as to what the norm is. Also, it may not indicate what an experienced buck or doe with some age on it might do, when you see this year's fawn wandering up your smoke stream. We do tend to over generalize what we occasionally see while hunting. There are an awful lot of things that young deer will tolerate that older deer may not.