Doc

So is this one of the benefits of having a better gender balance in the herd? .......Just kidding...... I couldn't help myself.

I was in a Walmart today and looked at one of those phones that you guys use for texting and such. I can't figure out how anybody uses those things (gloves or no gloves). No wonder people are driving into trees when they try to text and drive at the same time. What do you do grow a couple of extra long thumbnails and file them into a shape like a stylus. Seriously, my thumb would cover about a half-dozen of those little tiny keys. That is one techno activity that I guess I'll just have to do without ..... lol.

These reports on averages across the entire state really are kind of worthless in terms of indicating what the real situations are in any particular spot that we each might be hunting. The real data that might have some relevance to each of us is the harvest comparisons within each of our own individual hunting areas. What does this statewide report really tell us. Perhaps it tells us that some areas had dismal under-harvests while others may have had huge over-harvests. The result being that the averages look just about perfect and holding steady, but actually may not be correct anywhere .... lol. That's how averages often turn out. I'll withold any booing or cheering until I see the data that reflects the town by town harvest numbers. I'm not sure how much stock I put in any of it, but at least that will be information that is geographically relevant to where I hunt and information that I can compare to my own observations.

This is the phenomenon that makes me wonder if some of those wonderful statistical management schemes aren't being skewed by these kinds of things. It is just possible that they are over harvesting in areas that can be hunted in an attempt to get harvest results that make the entire WMU average out with the right numbers. That's not a statement ..... just a point of curiosity.

Aw, kwitcherbitchin! ...........................Lol....I've been dying to use that new word.

I seem to recall reading about some pre-historic North American species of deer that went extinct because it developed antlers that were too big for it's survival. Are we trying to develop that kind of deer now? To me that thing looks absolutely ridiculous.

I think a lot of people think that pop-up blinds are the answer to instant mobility. I haven't found that to be the case. I have had bet results with using pop-ups that have been on location for a few weeks, and that have been carefully and thoroughly "brushed in". Putting up a ground blind on the spur of the moment has never worked for me and I have been quickly picked off from long distances. This comment gets even more important with bow hunting because you are trying to get "up close and personal".

I would imagine that those guys who sit all day long are in some exceptional spots where there is some frequent action. I think there would have to be a pretty realistic expectation of action that allows one to sit there all day. Let's hope so anyway, otherwise I really worry for those people ..... lol.

Ha-ha.... sorry for stressing out the "reading challenged"

There are still people who actually believe in the DEC (kind of like believing in Santa Clause ... lol) and figure that if permits are issued, it is their job to support the DEC efforts to get populations back in line. If only all that were really true......lol. One comment about the statement that "The DEC should lay off permits for a while" ...... That may very well be true in some localities of the state, but such blanket statements that seem to be meant for the entire state are not necessarily appropriate everywhere. You probably already realize that and simply neglected to indicate that that statement applies only in certain WMUs. We have enough "one size fits all" solutions being proposed

Yes and at one time cougars and wolves were here, but I won't be welcoming them back here any time soon. Even elk and woodland bison and other past residents of this state should be introduced through normal legal channels with the proper amount of study and planning. Certainly, we have had enough accidental introductions of species here so we should appreciate the proper processes for new introductions. I also might add as was already mentioned that anyone who smacks into one of those critters on the highway might have a different view of just how harmless this is to have these game farms and such taking such irresponsible attitudes toward keeping these things penned up in a safe and permanent way. It's kind of like the one rainy morning when I locked up my little Datsun as it was heading for an escaped horse that was standing in the middle of the road. I'm sure I wouldn't have shrugged that off either if I had made contact. With all animals comes responsibilities.

That happens to me all the time. I spend hours hunting a mile or two way up on the hill only to come home and hear the story about all the deer that were in the front yard. So you say, "well then hunt the front yard dummy!" Nope, that doesn't work either. They have spies out keeping tabs on where I am hunting.

Lol.... I get it. You just want to hear a synopsis. Sorry, I never could tell a story that way ..... ha-ha.

See that is a factor that you never hear about from the DEC when they are lecturing on their management techniques. Every seminar or discussion that I have ever attended, treats deer management like it is occurring in a college labratory or in a petri dish or something. Even outside deer management organizations (QDMA) treat deer management like all variables are controllable and contained. You seldom hear real life scenarios talked about that actually exist in a big way out here in the real world that apply to 90% of the state. At least that's my take on what I read and hear.

The account of heavy winter kill in '95 and '96 followed by the quick resurgence in the next 4 years shows just how resilient deer are. And yet you and others talk about something in those units that is starting to resemble a permanent irreversible removal of the deer herd. What gives? Are they still issuing that many permits that they are maintaining a near non-existant herd? It sounds like permit issuance should be suspended for a while. Are there habitat indicators that show that the deer herd is that low (excessive under-utilization of food, etc.? Is there something about the habitat that it will no longer support a growing herd? See all this stuff is something that I have never seen here except for the heavy deer yards and die-off back in the 80's that I mentioned in my original post. So I am quite interested in some of the replies that I am reading here in this thread.

I kind of wonder in those areas where a lot of land is posted up and under hunted just how the DEC compensates for that with their permit allocations. It could work that the harvests are under what they expected so they assume a low population and cut permit numbers. Or it could work that they recognize the situation and are dis-satisfied with the qty of deer being removed and flood the area with permits trying to get at those excess deer that they know are still in the area. That wouldn't be a real good deal for huntable lands. That is the one thing that I never understood about the permit system. When low harvest numbers are recorded do they assume the population is down and permits should be cut or do they assume the hunters aren't doing a good enough job and require more permits? Thinking could go either way couldn't it? Maybe that's a flaw with trying to manage with only using calculated numbers.

I wonder if the gun season has any effect on the daytime movements and responses to calls?

Ha-ha..... everything is fine in its proper place. Wow that's a surprise! They actually singled out paint-ball activities. Well from my standpoint that is some great news.

So are you guys still getting any buck pictures since the season opened? It sure would be nice to see a few bruisers still around at this late part of the season. That would make things pretty exciting for next year. You guys haven't taken down the cameras yet have you? I brought in one but still have two out there snooping on the critters. But activity has gone way down. And that includes nocturnal pictures as well.

Thinking back to all the conversations here about the necessity of keeping deer populations low for a healthy herd, it started me thinking that I have never seen a starving deer since the big deer yard at the south end of Honeoye lake back in the 80's. Now that was an extreme case where the herd was allowed to expand way beyond any sense of reasonableness. But I was thinking that since that time, the herd level has occasionally been fairly high and yet all the deer that I have gotten have been quite fat and healthy. Also, I have yet to locally see a browse-line in recent years (other than the ornamental trees in my yard ..... lol), or any other sign that the population is stressed by high numbers. These observations from a WMU that has traditionally been one of the highest producing units (per square mile) in the state (8N). I have to admit that I only get to see a very tiny part of the state and I often wonder about other parts of the state. So when there is talk about the necessity of continually increasing doe harvests it makes me wonder if the DEC really is excessively bending over for the anti-deer interests (see the composition of the CFTs) as opposed to worrying about the actual carrying capacity of the habitat. I know it's a delicate balance, but I am always curious to try to figure out when the anti-deer financial interests are being over-satisfied at the expense of the hunter. Oh-oh .... I'm wandering a bit. So anyway, finally the question...... Have any of you recently (within the past 2 decades) ever found evidence of over-browsing, deer starvation, or poor deer physical condition due to over-population. What's it really like out there around the state. I'm not making any kind of judgement as to whether such over-populated situations exist, I am simply curious as to whether anyone here has ever observed them (and where).

Has anybody seen any official DEC definition of a "building" as regards the 500' law? After all these blinds can be occupied, and the reason for the 500' proximity law is to protect individuals that are inside of "buildings". I mean an arrest based on one of these blinds would be an incredible act of "pickyness" but then I have heard of some CO's that might take advantage of just such a ridiculous notion....lol. Good grief could that law apply to old outhouses, or some of those half destroyed old barns you see falling down in the middle of a field? .....Kid's treehouses? ........ old deserted farm houses ....... elevated hunting blinds? Interesting thought.

Oh Damn!!!! It's finally happened. I have apparently totally lost my sense of humor. What kind of goofy nonsense is that?

Ok, since you know exactly how many points were on the missing chunk of antler, I am going to assume that he had it on his head when you first saw him and shot. So I would guess he lost it somewhere between where you shot it and where it finally wound up dead (probably where it fell). So if you know where it stood when you shot, and the blood trailing was not excessively long, I think there is an excellent chance that you could go back out and find it. Don't wait for the snow to cover it up. If you are interested in having it all mounted, I would think that a taxidermist might be able to do a pretty acceptable job of re-attaching it. If that's not the way it all happened and you are going to try to aimlessly wander through the whole woods looking for it, I would suggest that you save yourself a lot of time and effort. You would better spend your efforts buying a lottery ticket. The odds of success would be a whole lot better.

What is it about an elk that has any resemblance to a deer? Honestly, these guys are out hunting deer and they don't even have a clue what they actually look like? Pull those licenses ..... they don't even belong in the woods. Now the other side of the coin ....... I have to wonder what kind of Mickey Mouse fence do they have these critters enclosed in that they can "walk through the fence"? Why are we so accepting of the careless way some of these places maintain their facilities when non-native species are involved? It seems to me that rules and regulations on these game farms and hunting preserves need a whole lot of tightening. Their should be required construction rules for enclosures based on species, along with initial inspection and periodic un announced future inspections. Failure to properly maintain enclosures should result in prmanent closure. We now have a breeding population of a very destructive species because of sloppy housing practices involved by these kinds of places. One of three things needs to happen. set up some very strict regulations and inspections of the housing and control of non-native species, make the penalties for escaped animals so steep that no one would ever risk an escape, or outlaw these kinds of places completely.

A few years back, I took a day off from hunting and I was taking a walk down the driveway to get the paper. The driveway is about 1000 feet long and bracketed on both sides by thick vines, trees and brush so naturally I took my shotgun along just in case something goofy were to happen along the way. Around here it's a good idea to take the gun any time the season is open even if it is to just step out in the yard. I got a little way down the driveway, and I looked over in the thicket and there was a buck just laying there at about 15 yards looking at me. I'm sure he was just doing what he had done many times before ....... sitting tight and letting me just walk by. He was kind of hunkered into some vines and I imagine he felt pretty darn confident that he blended right in and that I would keep right on walking. Unfortunately for him, this just happened to be the first snow of the season, and he didn't realize just how much he stuck out there silhouetted against the snow. At 15 yards he let me turn toward him, unsling and shoulder my shotgun and shoot. That was a short drag. I learned a little something about the behavior of deer during gun season. They have learned to just hold tight and let hunters almost step on them. If it hadn't have just snowed, that little tactic would have worked for him one more time because he would have been completely camoflaged in those vines.