Doc

Actually that answer from the DEC is very misleading. While a lot of the more ridiculous lawsuits would lose their validity, there is still the legal expectation that there are not dangerous situations allowed to exist on your land. As an example, we lived for quite a few years on the old farmstead before we found an old abandoned open well part way up the hill. Don't ask me why anyone would dig a well up there, but many many years ago someone did and we could have been made to prove that we were unaware that we were allowing an unsafe situation to exist on our property (impossible to prove) if some hunter had fallen in and drowned. I also know of another open well that is quite nicely camoflaged by bushes on another property. There are other things such as old fences that can damage snowmobilers that could form a very nice little lawsuit if people were not warned not to trespass. So I wouldn't feel too secure about a freedom from lawsuits just because the DEC says that such things have been tightened up a bit. I don't.

Back in 1951, a posted sign in our area was a novelty. Hunting lands were huge and primarily owned by farmers who were way to busy to worry about chasing trespassers, and really had no interest in doing so. Also, a great many of them couldn't afford posted signs or the time that it took to put them up. All land that was away from houses and barns was considered a place to hunt and it was fine with landowner (no permission needed or expected). Fast forward a decade or so, and you find improved roads and improved vehicles and improved wages that lured commuters out into the rural areas with the promise of cheap land, and lots of it, as the farmers rapidly deserted their farms and turned to the more lucrative jobs in the cities. Large tracts of land were broken into small parcels and filled with city transplants. With this new breed of landowner, fresh from the city, came new attitudes of possessiveness. Up went the posted signs and up went the denials of access. Every year since then it became more engrained in the rural societies. This idea of locking up land has become the established norms. Much of it has been driven by hunters themselves with careless hunting practices and a lack of respect for the property of others. Heavily publicized hunting deaths and near misses added fuel to the fire. Other abuses such as litter, fence damage, mechanized trespass with offensive sounding off-road vehicles and other abuses has solidified the attitudes of posting such that it is something that will never go away. A new force has also been gaining acceptance recently. That is the new hunter/managers who have been impressed with the idea of growing their own trophies so they too can join the big-boys that they see on the TV that harvest these "manufactured trophies". I have seen the high fences, and the leases, and the large chunks of acreage that have been withdrawn from the hunting public with only a few "members" allowed to hunt there. This idea was unheard of back in 1951. I'm sure that the future will hold even more stringent access as land continues to be gobbled up by development. Yes, a lot has changed over the past 60 years and the trends are obvious. Those posted signs aren't going anywhere.

My deer never hang anymore. As soon as I get it home, it's on to the processor ........ same day. Back when I used to do my own processing, I would hang it up overnight just so I didn't have to get into the stinking mess right away at the end of a hard day of hunting. No other reason. I know that professional slaughterhouses hang their beef and pork and such for a specified time at a specified temperature. Unfortunately, I don't have a climate controlled walk-in cooler like they do. So I forgo all of that process. I've never had a complaint or noticed any difference in meat quality. However, I have had some moose and deer meat that was "aged" in the sun and at all kinds of excessive changing temperatures. The taste of some of that was not really all that pleasant.

I have been into the family genealogy for quite a few years, Taking our family history back to the late 1500's. I was contacting family members all over the world and sharing and compiling family research. It's a great hobby and a great way to establish contact with a lot of family. Eventually I created a family book of over 90 pages and distributed hundreds of copies. The book had the complete lineage as well as old pictures of early family members and their farms and other interesting items and a bunch of articles and anything else that I thought family members might be interested in. Costs were simply postage which was very cheap at "book rates" so nobody had to spend a fortune to get a copy. Materials and copying facilities were donated by my employers with their knowledge and permission so there was no production costs. The software that I used was "Family Treemaker", a super user friendly piece of software. It's a great way to keep things organized. I have slowed the activity in recent years and gotten into a bunch of other hobbies so I am getting to the point where I am looking for some other younger family member to take it over. I would encourage anyone who has any interest in family history to start some research. With the internet, there is no limit as to how far you can go, and perhaps leave your family members with a present that they all will appreciate.

Mine stay up through the entire bow season and so far, after two years of use, there is no sign of deterioration. I generally take them in shortly after gun season starts. They do get to see all kind of weather and hold up pretty nice.

That's it !!!! I don't know why I thought it was a North American critter. Anyway ............. that looks like where some of these breeders are heading with their genetic experimentation. Pretty soon the Dr. Frankenstien deer farmers will develop a deer with a tiny body that just lays in a pen in a pile and grows antlers ...... lol. Hey, anything for a buck ..... eh?

Isn't that the way Christmas lights are supposed to be strung????

Aw, kwitcherbitchin!

Look, you ain't a real hunter unless you sit there so long that other hunters walk up to you and poke you with a stick just to see if you're still alive. I don't know, but it sounds like a lot of you guys actually leave the stand before you get your deer, some even leave the stand daily. What's up with that? You guys just don't seem to take this stuff seriously at all.

So is this one of the benefits of having a better gender balance in the herd? .......Just kidding...... I couldn't help myself.

I was in a Walmart today and looked at one of those phones that you guys use for texting and such. I can't figure out how anybody uses those things (gloves or no gloves). No wonder people are driving into trees when they try to text and drive at the same time. What do you do grow a couple of extra long thumbnails and file them into a shape like a stylus. Seriously, my thumb would cover about a half-dozen of those little tiny keys. That is one techno activity that I guess I'll just have to do without ..... lol.

These reports on averages across the entire state really are kind of worthless in terms of indicating what the real situations are in any particular spot that we each might be hunting. The real data that might have some relevance to each of us is the harvest comparisons within each of our own individual hunting areas. What does this statewide report really tell us. Perhaps it tells us that some areas had dismal under-harvests while others may have had huge over-harvests. The result being that the averages look just about perfect and holding steady, but actually may not be correct anywhere .... lol. That's how averages often turn out. I'll withold any booing or cheering until I see the data that reflects the town by town harvest numbers. I'm not sure how much stock I put in any of it, but at least that will be information that is geographically relevant to where I hunt and information that I can compare to my own observations.

This is the phenomenon that makes me wonder if some of those wonderful statistical management schemes aren't being skewed by these kinds of things. It is just possible that they are over harvesting in areas that can be hunted in an attempt to get harvest results that make the entire WMU average out with the right numbers. That's not a statement ..... just a point of curiosity.

Aw, kwitcherbitchin! ...........................Lol....I've been dying to use that new word.

I seem to recall reading about some pre-historic North American species of deer that went extinct because it developed antlers that were too big for it's survival. Are we trying to develop that kind of deer now? To me that thing looks absolutely ridiculous.

I think a lot of people think that pop-up blinds are the answer to instant mobility. I haven't found that to be the case. I have had bet results with using pop-ups that have been on location for a few weeks, and that have been carefully and thoroughly "brushed in". Putting up a ground blind on the spur of the moment has never worked for me and I have been quickly picked off from long distances. This comment gets even more important with bow hunting because you are trying to get "up close and personal".

I would imagine that those guys who sit all day long are in some exceptional spots where there is some frequent action. I think there would have to be a pretty realistic expectation of action that allows one to sit there all day. Let's hope so anyway, otherwise I really worry for those people ..... lol.

Ha-ha.... sorry for stressing out the "reading challenged"

There are still people who actually believe in the DEC (kind of like believing in Santa Clause ... lol) and figure that if permits are issued, it is their job to support the DEC efforts to get populations back in line. If only all that were really true......lol. One comment about the statement that "The DEC should lay off permits for a while" ...... That may very well be true in some localities of the state, but such blanket statements that seem to be meant for the entire state are not necessarily appropriate everywhere. You probably already realize that and simply neglected to indicate that that statement applies only in certain WMUs. We have enough "one size fits all" solutions being proposed

Yes and at one time cougars and wolves were here, but I won't be welcoming them back here any time soon. Even elk and woodland bison and other past residents of this state should be introduced through normal legal channels with the proper amount of study and planning. Certainly, we have had enough accidental introductions of species here so we should appreciate the proper processes for new introductions. I also might add as was already mentioned that anyone who smacks into one of those critters on the highway might have a different view of just how harmless this is to have these game farms and such taking such irresponsible attitudes toward keeping these things penned up in a safe and permanent way. It's kind of like the one rainy morning when I locked up my little Datsun as it was heading for an escaped horse that was standing in the middle of the road. I'm sure I wouldn't have shrugged that off either if I had made contact. With all animals comes responsibilities.

That happens to me all the time. I spend hours hunting a mile or two way up on the hill only to come home and hear the story about all the deer that were in the front yard. So you say, "well then hunt the front yard dummy!" Nope, that doesn't work either. They have spies out keeping tabs on where I am hunting.

Lol.... I get it. You just want to hear a synopsis. Sorry, I never could tell a story that way ..... ha-ha.

See that is a factor that you never hear about from the DEC when they are lecturing on their management techniques. Every seminar or discussion that I have ever attended, treats deer management like it is occurring in a college labratory or in a petri dish or something. Even outside deer management organizations (QDMA) treat deer management like all variables are controllable and contained. You seldom hear real life scenarios talked about that actually exist in a big way out here in the real world that apply to 90% of the state. At least that's my take on what I read and hear.

The account of heavy winter kill in '95 and '96 followed by the quick resurgence in the next 4 years shows just how resilient deer are. And yet you and others talk about something in those units that is starting to resemble a permanent irreversible removal of the deer herd. What gives? Are they still issuing that many permits that they are maintaining a near non-existant herd? It sounds like permit issuance should be suspended for a while. Are there habitat indicators that show that the deer herd is that low (excessive under-utilization of food, etc.? Is there something about the habitat that it will no longer support a growing herd? See all this stuff is something that I have never seen here except for the heavy deer yards and die-off back in the 80's that I mentioned in my original post. So I am quite interested in some of the replies that I am reading here in this thread.

I kind of wonder in those areas where a lot of land is posted up and under hunted just how the DEC compensates for that with their permit allocations. It could work that the harvests are under what they expected so they assume a low population and cut permit numbers. Or it could work that they recognize the situation and are dis-satisfied with the qty of deer being removed and flood the area with permits trying to get at those excess deer that they know are still in the area. That wouldn't be a real good deal for huntable lands. That is the one thing that I never understood about the permit system. When low harvest numbers are recorded do they assume the population is down and permits should be cut or do they assume the hunters aren't doing a good enough job and require more permits? Thinking could go either way couldn't it? Maybe that's a flaw with trying to manage with only using calculated numbers.