Doc

Actually there's not a whole lot of difference between that and some of the bowhunters here who side with the antihunters in trying to discourage bowhunter organizations. But anyway, just keep in mind that your post kind of reminds the crossbow opposition to start writing too. I just thought I would remind you of that fact. Just to make you feel a bit better about it all, I really didn't need your reminder. My letters have been out there for a while. But anyway, I'm sure that your fellow members in the NYS Crossbow Assn are all writing their letters too aren't they? What's that ....... you aren't a member? ...... lol. What do you mean you can't find any members of that organization. Doc

There was a management show on this morning (on outdoor channel). I think it's a regular. But don't ask me the name of it ..... I've got a real good memory but it's a little short. How about they spend a bit more time on scouting. You know there are a lot of newcomers who maybe could use some fundamentals. Also there's a lot of us old-timers that could use a few reminders of the fundamentals too even though we don't want to admit it. Some day it would be nice if somebody spent their half hour on TV going over some of the finer points of tracking (both wounded and unwounded) critters. I'm just thinking that not everything has to be the same old tired stuff of hunter sits in stand ...... deer shows up ....... hunter shoots deer ........ hand-shakes and back slapping all around. That was nice the first 600 times I saw it, but after a while it become pretty predictiable and boring. What's wrong with a bit of real basic instruction. I havent seen any of that since the Wentzels put out their video "Bowhunting October Whitetails" or whatever the name of it was. That was back in the 70's or real early 80's I believe, and I don't think there has been another one like it since. Also, not everything has to be about whitetails. I would like to see more wilderness hunts that show a bit about camp life and show more of some of that northwest scenery that I and a bunch of others are unlikely to ever be able to experience. I really love some of those western moose, sheep, g-bear and goat hunts. I realize these aren't cheap hunts to video for profit, but a few more of these here and there would break up some of the monotony. Yes, there is a whole lot more these guys could do with their hunting shows that would vary things up a bit and remove some of that boredom that creeps in every so often with the constant repetition of existing hunting storylines and content. A little creativity in programing wouldn't exactly hurt any, would it? Doc

I wouldn't have any problems with limiting hunters to one antlered deer per year. That would do a few things. Most hunters would try to make sure that that their one buck was as good a one as they figured they could get. That would become a defacto voluntary AR where hunters would be motivated to pass on some bucks in hopes of getting a larger one. It's a limit that could be put on any area regardless of deer density, without causing anyone any real hardship. Also it might eliminate some of massive buck slaughters that occur with some of the larger and more effective drives. It would also help in sharing a resource that is smaller than the number of hunters and would actually amount to more hunters having a possibility of succeeding at harvesting a buck without actually increasing the buck take. That sounds like a winner for just about everyone. Such a limit would also improve the doe take. Without the option of shooting more than one buck hunters would be more likely to fill antlerless permits. That may not make all hunters in all areas happy, but would help the DEC with their management goals. Frankly I think the idea has more positives than negatives. Doc

I think with my prior experience of having shot my Brother-in-law's .243, and the comments of the majority of people on this forum and a couple of others, I have decided that the .243 is what I will be buying. Of course the other thing that will require a decision is what scope to top it off with. That's another tough one because quality costs. It's going to be another trade-off kind of decision. Now all I need is some reassurance that the state legislature and the Governor are actually going to pass the rifle bill for Southern Ontario County. This will be the third time that it has been attempted, so it's not a done-deal until the Governor finally signs it. It's been quite some time with no word on any progress. At some point I may have to take a gamble and buy the gun anyway, but I have to admit that unless we can legally use it locally, the gun would probably not be used all that much, so I'm not exactly rushing just yet. Doc

So it looks like most are into bowhunting because of the challenges of mastering the weapon, the challenges of hunting skills due to the required close range, and the feeling of achievement and satisfaction with bowhunting success because it is recognized as not really being all that easy to do. Oh and possibly the quality of the hunt without the carnival atmosphere and a limited amount of people flooding the woods. I think I agree with all that and hope that the future of bowhunting always contains those elements that make the activity unique and distinct from all other forms of hunting so that future generations can enjoy the same things about bowhunting that we do. Doc

Over the years, I have used a lot of different broadheads. Back in the 60's and 70's, the broadhead of choice was the Bear Razorheads. And I have used those same old heads as recently as 2003. I also used Barries Rocky Mountain Razors (Both three and four blade) during the 80's. More recently, I have used Spitfire 125's, and the last couple of years I have been using the Magnus Stingers. Over a period greater than 40 years, I have not really been too much on changing broadheads as you can see. I have never lost a deer because of a broadhead, regardless of which of any of those I was using. I have often had flight challenges from some of them that took a bit of work to straighten out, but most of the upgrades only occurred after many years and a thought that maybe I was getting behind the curve in terms of broadhead advances. As it turned out, that was never significantly proven to be the case. So, I will probably finish out my years shooting these Stingers. Doc

We have a thread here about our favorite shows, but it is always fun to see just what it is about some of these shows that tend to make you shake your head in disbelief or disgust or just plain confusion. I was reminded of this a couple of hours ago when I saw yet another bowhunting program where about 2/3 or more of the arrow failed to penetrate the deer. What is with these programs where I am seeing some absolutely horrible penetration. More times than I can actually remember, I have seen video of the deer running away with almost all of the arrow flopping around from the entrance side of the deer. But you would never guess that it was horrible penetration from the reaction of the hunter who is just laughing all over themselves with excitement of the shot. Oh yes, and everytime the deer is found almost immediately deader than a stone. Let me tell you how this would go if it were me. If I hit a deer like that, I would have a heavy blood trail for the first 100 yards and then it would dribble out to a drop here and there with me down on my hands and knees searching out the next drop 50 yards away. I would spend the rest of the day following this almost impossible blood-trail until finally I would be reduced to walking ever increasing concentric circles and finally losing daylight. If I saw 2/3 of the arrow flopping around as the deer ran away, I would not be laughing and celebrating. I would be swearing up a blue streak and understanding just what a crappy tracking job I had in store for me. At least I would be understanding that I had better be awful lucky that day and the time for celebration was probably a bit premature. I think that on hits such as this they used to cut that part of the video out. But now I see it all the time. It really makes me wonder what kind of broadheads they are using, or what kinds of bad shot selections they are making to have so many of these shallow penetration cases lately. I don't expect that every hit will be a pass-through. That would be nice but not always realistic. But some of these are doing well if they actually make it to the vitals. Whats up with that? So anyway that's my one gripe for today about TV hunting videos. Yes I have a bunch more, but this one is a start. However, I am curious as to how some of the various things that happen on TV shows hit the rest of you. So what kinds of things have you seen on hunting videos that make you wonder a bit, or maybe just plain irritate you? Doc

Well, of course my letters may not say exactly what you would want them to. But thanks for the reminder anyway ...... lol. Doc

How did the deer sign look there?

In general, I pretty much agree with what you are saying (at least in principal), but I will say that it is not a big issue either way with me as long as the implementation of AR is tied to some determination that the deer population is sufficient that the imposition of AR does not pose a level of frustration that will drive out more hunters. If you have an area that is issuing few or no antlerless permits, then that to me is a sign that the herd is in such a shape that you should not be further restricting buck takes. I don't think we want to be in the position of making harvest potential equal to zero with out excitement to strap restrictions onto everyone's hunting. AR will not change the way I hunt or the standards that I long ago established for my own hunting. I hunt in an area where deer populations are high enough so I can be a bit chosey if I want. That does not mean that I want to get into the business of all hunters or that I want to impose those standards on hunters where conditions may not be so good. Doc

I don't think I ever heard any resolution, but I believe the generally accepted verdict is that it all depends on the mood of the CO that writes the ticket, or the mood of the judge that you appear in front of. Doc

No, I didn't have any luck either. I seldom do. Any sheds that I have found over the years were strictly by accident. I was wandering around the hills in the late winter and early spring, but ...... no luck. Doc

The Big Moose Hunt Monster I told this story on the old Empire Forum, but we have a lot of new members, so I thought I would post it again. Back in the mid-80's, three other guys from work and myself decided to go on a do-it-yourself moose hunt in Ontario Canada. We took an entire year to plan the thing, and we we were determined not to forget a thing. We grabbed onto everything moose hunting related in magazines and studied topo maps and freeze dried food, and glommed onto just about any scrap of information we could find over that entire year of preparation. The trip took us to an outfitter (required by law) who supplied us with tags and little a cabin which we never used. From the outfitters camp, we took dirt roads for another bunch of hours to a fairly remote lake. We loaded up our two canoes and a 10' aluminum boat and small motor and took off with the boat pulling the two canoes. We went to the end of that lake and did a short 150 yard portage into another lake and then motored to the end of that one. We were in pretty deep with absolutely no sight or sound of another human being. We set up a camp on the lake shore pretty much in the vicinity of the rivers and swamp areas that we intended to hunt. There was one little wrinkle that only I knew about. At home, we had a family dog that just like any dog, loved to play tug-of-war with any old towel or rag. While doing that she always made some of the most viscious sounding growling and snarling noises. I took a small portable tape player/recorder, and made a tape that was blank for the first 15 minutes and then filled with these deep gutteral growling noises. She sounded about 6 times bigger than she actually was and put on a hell of a show for the tape recorder. I rewound the tape and stuffed the player and tape into my sleeping bag. So on the first night we got the camp all set up, had supper and were sitting around the campfire talking away and enjoying the atmosphere of total isolation and complete remoteness of this place that had no disturbances other than a pair of otters swimming back and forth in the lake and the occasional splashing around in the swamp on the other side of the lake, which I assume was a moose. Finally when it was pitch dark, and I pretended to head off into the darkness to answer the call of nature. In reality, I went out and planted the tape player, turned the volume up, and walked back to the campfire. The 15 minute leader of silence did it's work, giving everyone a chance to forget that I even had gone out there. All of a sudden there was this gosh-awful, terrifying, vicious growling and snarling that began from out in the darkness. I slipped into my best "actor" mode and suppressed the laughter at all the panicked reactions. There was a whole lot of scrambling going on as everybody dove for their bows and knives and anything else they could arm themselves with. Finally, we all stood there in kind of a skirmish line waiting for the attack. Of course, nothing happened other than the continuation of the ferocious growling and snarling. So finally, in my best John Wayne impersonation, I volunteered to go out there and chase off whatever it was. Everybody tried to talk me out of it, but I was determined. So finally all four of us started creeping through the darkness getting closer and closer to the camp intruder. When we were practically on top of it, I dove on the tape player with a fake struggle and came up clutching the machine and declaring victory. There was a bit of silence until everyone realized what had happened and then came the swearing, name-calling and laughing. I think I might have come close to getting thrown in the lake. That was a lot of years ago and still everytime I run into one of these guys, we laugh about the camp-monster in Canada. By the way, a couple of days later, we did get a bull moose. The whole trip was a great success. The great pike and walleye fishing ...... all the different critters that we saw ..... and a moose ....... and even the successful capture of the great Canadian camp-monster. Doc

It comes twice a month, which makes it a great value. The other thing is that, just like this forum, it is about things that happen in NYS, so it is all relevant to what WE are interested in. There are a lot of issues that I have seen only in that paper and no where else relative to legislation and political developments in the state. It's one of the few publications that come to our house that ALWAYS read from cover to cover. I love it. I even have given a subscription to my son and my brother-in-law, and now they're hooked on it. Doc

A lot of the more established shows are repeated over and over. I was reminded of that when I was watching Archer's Choice. I thought things looked awful familiar, but then one of the guest hunters mentioned that it was 2006. Finally I remembered the rest of the show. In fact I believe I may have seen it more than once before. Actually, I think they can usually get away with it because a lot of it is very repetitive, especially the deer hunts. There's not a whole lot that happens on these shows that doesn't happen on just about all of them. Doc

I'll be sure to do that ....... lol. Doc

Yes ........ check the syllabus for dates.

Whenever most AR proponents start talking about AR, they speak of shoving it on the entire state regardless of the factors of habitat, climate impacts and other things that determine deer density and quality. When I hear this, my mind immediately goes to the hunters and hunting conditions in the Adirondacks. I know there are a lot of areas there and probably other places as well that have about the worst deer habitat, coupled with significant winter mortality. Frankly, I can't see adding any further restrictions on those folks. Also, I know there are places where DMPs are extremely scarce and perhaps in some areas non-existant. The permit allocations in those areas are low because there simply are very few deer there. To slap restrictions on those people in those areas would mean that perhaps the only deer they see in a season, or two, or more, would be illegal to shoot except for one or two very very lucky individuals. Without a doe option, and a situation where almost all of the bucks would be illegal to shoot, I'm afraid we would likely see more hunters frustrated out of our ranks. We would be in effect saying, "Go ahead and spend your hard-earned cash on our recently over-inflated licenses, but you really have no chance of harvesting anything". So, I am not interested at all in any kind of AR that ignores herd conditions. AR, if implemented, has to be done so with some element of common sense involved. Just as any other management tool, some actual attempts at determining where and how to use it has to take place. This is not a regulation where one-size-fits-all. Doc

Bowhunter, Fur-Fish-Game, also New York Outdoor News (a NY sportsmen's newspaper) Doc

Yes you're absolutely correct. There is no point in continuing this discussion. I have stated my opinion and I have shown that the only people officially representing bowhunters in NYS (including you), that have any impact is NYB. You can go on with your "if all bowhunters did this" and "if all bowhunters did that" all you want, but the plain fact is that the only ones that are dedicated to doing anything for NYS bowhunters and who actually are doing anything for NYS bowhunters is the NYB. Your eagerness to keep bowhunters in a disorganized state will not allow you to admit the obvious, so what is the point of continuing the discussion? Also now that it has been pointed out, the link between the hostility toward NYB and desire to cram crossbows into the bow seasons is actually quite clear now too. I was wondering what was behind all this and now it is obvious that there are those that will put their need for crossbows above the need for organized bowhunters. I guess there is no need or value in discussing that. Might just be possible that organized bowhunting (NYB) is really better off without those people. Doc

Actually, they don't refuse to allow input from members at all. In fact if you were a member you would be familiar with the questionaires were sent out where they solicited opinions and input from members. You would also be familiar with the fact that these guys do not hide their contact information and are easily available for comment by phone or e-mail. That's the problem with commenting on an organization that you are not a member of. But look, I am starting to tire of this thread and am not really happy about extending this discussion as a platform for you to do the anti's work of trying to tear down all organization of bowhunters without any positive ideas on how to come up with anything better. It's clear that you have had some bad experience that has left you with a total hatred of the organization or some personal problem with someone in the NYB. I can't help you out with that. But I do find it disturbing that your attempts at discouraging bowhunters from joining together and strengthening the sport through organization is exactly a tactic that the animal rights people would use. Yes, they are the people who joined together to openly declare war specifically on bowhunters and coincidentally you seem to be bent on doing their work for them by discouraging bowhunters from seeking organization while at the same time offering no alternative. That's not a position I as a bowhunter would be real comfortable with. Doc

That's great! I'll have to go poking through my pictures and se if there are any that anybody might be interested in. Doc

Great! ..... when are you going to start it up? Doc

Fantail- That is one ugly hole in that deer!!! Nasty...Nasty....nasty! Doc

I kind of like something in the neighborhood of 16", which is about the height of my hunting stool ...... lol. I'm not in the trees anymore except for one treestand that I call "The Hotel" which resembles a tree house more than a treestand. Doc