mike rossi

We launched another organization, Visit our website, To stay informed subscribe to our Facebook page. As interest grows we will add new content to the website and send it out as Facebook feed. We may later use an e-newsletter when interest grows more. Here is the website, and of course, you can follow the link to Facebook: http://unitedhuntersofnyc.weebly.com/

Yeah OK dummy you won....

Then you can't read or have some sort of learning disability that interferes with your ability to understand context.... Show me where in that report do we advocate for either harvest or consumption of sardines or shrimp? Either that, or you apparently think people on this site are dumb. Some of them are, I wont argue that. But you are wasting everyone's time - trying adding some meaningful content to this site for once. The topic of this thread was about working within the political climate of NYC. You, fsw and others decided you would divert the subject. With little vested interest in the matter - (as someone said there are so few hunters in NYC), there was little motivation for me to stay true to that topic. However, you and others have disrupted the subject for others who may have been interested in pursuing a better voice out of NYC.

I can argue to no end with some of you and go in circles, and the result of doing so is the important facts get lost because people read the rear end of the thread. This is particularly true when complex or detailed info is provided. Instead of reading the links to our reports, many read the rear end. Thus, when someone changes the subject or adds a subtlety, the promulgation of fact and perspective is undermined, perhaps (*) intentionally. ((*) As we indicated in our report "Hunters against Hunters" there are many hunters who are willing to bolster the rhetoric of the Humane Society to undermine certain forms of hunting. Check out that report at this link: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/hunters-against-hunters.html ) Consistent with the title of this thread, we established significant proof there are "huntable" numbers of doves in NY state. The data in this thread is just a sample of the full report we are working on, yet this sample is enough to provide perspective. We suggest readers truly interested in the subject read the data provided which is relevant to the topic of this thread; which is doves seen per hour in NY. We also suggest those interested readers refer back to our website in the near future for the complete report. With the prelude about changing the subject and the introduction of subtleties into purposeful discussions, this is a good opportunity to address such which occurred in this thread. One subtlety introduced into this discussion is the narrative regarding the edibility of mourning doves. In order to put the topic of mourning doves as wild game meat in the correct perspective, we published a three part report on the subject. Each of the three parts of this report can be read at the respective links below: Part 1: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/lets-talk-about-food.html Part 2: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/lets-talk-about-food-2.html Part 3: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-9-step-crab-eating-process.html

I doubt very many, however, I already posted how many hunters pursue mourning doves in states bordering NY. Nationwide, there are about 1 million dove hunters. For reference, nation wide there are also about 1 million waterfowl hunters and about 1.5 million pheasant hunters. What about bluegills and other panfish, crawfish, anchovies, sardines, blue claw crabs, shrimp and bivalve shellfish? Here is part two of the report on this topic: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/lets-talk-about-food-2.html

It is amazing the number of hunters who will bolster the narrative of the Humane Society to undermine certain forms of hunting. How many shrimp or blue claw crabs - which result in considerable by-catch? Or hotdogs or brats? Here is your answer: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/lets-talk-about-food.html

Mourning doves are hunted both ways. Both methods are productive.

In NY, about 500,000 hunters chase about one million whitetails...... We predict about 5,000 NY hunters would pursue doves..... There are 10 million doves in NY, With that perspective, would you say 10 million doves for 5,000 hunters is a huntable population? Putting another spin on it, there are more doves in NY than the number of deer, coyote, turkey,bear, and moose combined.....

YUAZZA! Here is some more information we found while working on this report in progress: We have some data from the Plattsburg region Christmas Bird Count of 2006. Here is the numbers for that year: Ferrisburg: 579 mourning doves. Plattsburg: 442 mourning doves. Elizabethtown: 171 mourning doves. Saranac Lake: 84 mourning doves. Sedentary mourning doves, meaning those that do not migrate, may form winter flocks numbering well over 100 birds. Here are some examples from past survey data: 1) Eastern Orange County, December 20,1986 a flock of mourning doves estimated by counting to be 3,695 birds. 2) Farmingdale, Nassau County, August 12, 1989 a flock of over 500 mourning doves was observed. 3) Ogdensburg, St. Lawrence County, March 20, 1993 a flock of 56 at a feeder was reported. • An analysis of Breeding Bird Survey (BBS) data from 1966 to 1994 shows the NY mourning dove population increasing. The data after 1994 up until the present, also shows mourning dove populations rising in NY. From 1966 to 1979 mourning dove population increased an average of 4% per year. From 1980 to 1994 mourning dove population increased about 3% per year. • Some, but not all of the funding for mourning dove research which was authorized by former republican governor George E. Patacki; was derived from the DEC Division of Fish and Wildlife, in other words, the conservation fund, in even more precise terms hunting license revenue, plus the Return A Gift To Wildlife tax checkoff program. So just why are we not hunting doves in NY? • Mourning doves nest in “great numbers” in Long Island, the Lower Hudson Valley, and the Lake Ontario Plains. Mourning dove populations have increased in NY for the past 40 to 45 years as evinced by population surveys done by the FWS and other entities. • Mourning dove populations are more stable in the states which permit hunting. • The five year state mourning dove banding effort recently completed by the DEC is not the first. Between 1965 and 1970 there was one and perhaps other years. In the 1965 project, the FWS actually funded the participating states staff for the time they worked on the dove banding effort. That included at least Pennsylvania, who was deriving revenue from dove hunting already, yet the “feds” were paying for the time state wildlife staff were on the dove banding effort…. Good deal is an understatement – we are investigating into if this was recently practiced, which would have temporally paid DEC staff with federal funds instead of out of the conservation fund (hunting license revenue)…. • Pennsylvania’s first modern dove hunting season was 1946. Rhode Island’s first modern dove hunting season dates back at least as early as 1968, possibly much earlier.

Here is some more information we found while working on this report in progress: We have some data from the Plattsburg region Christmas Bird Count of 2006. Here is the numbers for that year: Ferrisburg: 579 mourning doves. Plattsburg: 442 mourning doves. Elizabethtown: 171 mourning doves. Saranac Lake: 84 mourning doves. Sedentary mourning doves, meaning those that do not migrate, may form winter flocks numbering well over 100 birds. Here are some examples from past survey data: 1) Eastern Orange County, December 20,1986 a flock of mourning doves estimated by counting to be 3,695 birds. 2) Farmingdale, Nassau County, August 12, 1989 a flock of over 500 mourning doves was observed. 3) Ogdensburg, St. Lawrence County, March 20, 1993 a flock of 56 at a feeder was reported. • An analysis of Breeding Bird Survey (BBS) data from 1966 to 1994 shows the NY mourning dove population increasing. The data after 1994 up until the present, also shows mourning dove populations rising in NY. From 1966 to 1979 mourning dove population increased an average of 4% per year. From 1980 to 1994 mourning dove population increased about 3% per year. • Some, but not all of the funding for mourning dove research which was authorized by former republican governor George E. Patacki; was derived from the DEC Division of Fish and Wildlife, in other words, the conservation fund, in even more precise terms hunting license revenue, plus the Return A Gift To Wildlife tax checkoff program. So just why are we not hunting doves in NY? • Mourning doves nest in “great numbers” in Long Island, the Lower Hudson Valley, and the Lake Ontario Plains. Mourning dove populations have increased in NY for the past 40 to 45 years as evinced by population surveys done by the FWS and other entities. • Mourning dove populations are more stable in the states which permit hunting. • The five year state mourning dove banding effort recently completed by the DEC is not the first. Between 1965 and 1970 there was one and perhaps other years. In the 1965 project, the FWS actually funded the participating states staff for the time they worked on the dove banding effort. That included at least Pennsylvania, who was deriving revenue from dove hunting already, yet the “feds” were paying for the time state wildlife staff were on the dove banding effort…. Good deal is an understatement – we are investigating into if this was recently practiced, which would have temporally paid DEC staff with federal funds instead of out of the conservation fund (hunting license revenue)…. • Pennsylvania’s first modern dove hunting season was 1946. Rhode Island’s first modern dove hunting season dates back at least as early as 1968, possibly much earlier.

Curmudgeon tells me there are only two or three surveyors to a team....

Curmudgeon reminded me to clarify that these surveys are not done from a single blind, but by a team of surveyors spread out over a 15 mile loop. Actually, that survey method would closely simulate the number of hunters expected to hunt doves and how a group of hunters would set up. Five, ten, or twenty hunters spread out over a 15 mile circle seeing 300 doves in two or three hours isn't exactly something to sneeze at....

This is statewide, not just Fayetville. APHIS got 984 comments so far, if you want to read them or comment go here: http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketBrowser;rpp=25;po=0;D=APHIS-2015-0093

So, just how many mourning doves does one see per hour sitting in blinds across NY state in December 2015? Here is a partial report on this years Christmas Bird Count for mourning doves, done just this past week or so.... Note Location and in BOLD first number is doves seen, second number is hours in the blind. As I already said, December is not prime time to see mourning doves in NY because of migration and mortality, thus numbers of resident and stop over doves in the fall are much greater. December 2015 Christmas Bird Count Mourning Dove – NY Mourning Dove NYUD Ulster-Dutchess 42.0280 -73.9537 486 4.2445 NYOD Oneida 43.0957 -75.6522 398 8.2062 NYCT Catskill-Coxsackie 42.2871 -73.8823 364 3.6129 NYSI Staten Island 40.5833 -74.1500 344 3.7189 NYML Mohonk Lake-Ashokan Reservoir 41.8516 -74.1292 332 3.6889 NYCH Conesus-Hemlock-Honeoye Lakes 42.7776 -77.6161 302 3.0200 NYOO Oak Orchard Swamp 43.1517 -78.3904 272 2.9405 NYNN L.I.: Northern Nassau County 40.8660 -73.5938 261 1.4978 NYEO Eastern Orange County 41.4811 -74.1473 232 2.4946 NYSB St. Bonaventure 42.1082 -78.4844 223 4.3092 NYSY Syracuse 43.1000 -76.0833 219 1.7951 NYRC Rockland County 41.1347 -73.9746 194 2.1202 NYBM Beaver Meadow 42.6757 -78.3721 148 3.4023 NYCM Chatham 42.3797 -73.6461 138 1.4681 NYMT Monticello 41.5678 -74.6321 137 3.0444 NYOS Oswego-Fulton 43.3983 -76.4742 102 1.6518 NYRM Rome 43.3035 -75.4732 78 2.9434 NYSO Scio 42.1668 -78.0667 66 2.5882 NYWA Watertown 44.0071 -75.9843 64 1.6495 NYSL Saranac Lake 44.3167 -74.0730 45 0.3830 NYHP Huyck Preserve 42.4980 -74.2170 15 0.3947

Here is a partial report on this years Christmas Bird Count for mourning doves, done just this past week or so.... Note Location and in BOLD first number is doves seen, second number is hours in the blind. As I already said, December is not prime time to see mourning doves in NY because of migration and mortality. Numbers of resident and stop over doves in the fall are much greater. December 2015 Christmas Bird Count Mourning Dove – NY Mourning Dove Export to: PDF | Excel | Word | CSV NYUD Ulster-Dutchess 42.0280 -73.9537 486 4.2445 NYOD Oneida 43.0957 -75.6522 398 8.2062 NYCT Catskill-Coxsackie 42.2871 -73.8823 364 3.6129 NYSI Staten Island 40.5833 -74.1500 344 3.7189 NYML Mohonk Lake-Ashokan Reservoir 41.8516 -74.1292 332 3.6889 NYCH Conesus-Hemlock-Honeoye Lakes 42.7776 -77.6161 302 3.0200 NYOO Oak Orchard Swamp 43.1517 -78.3904 272 2.9405 NYNN L.I.: Northern Nassau County 40.8660 -73.5938 261 1.4978 NYEO Eastern Orange County 41.4811 -74.1473 232 2.4946 NYSB St. Bonaventure 42.1082 -78.4844 223 4.3092 NYSY Syracuse 43.1000 -76.0833 219 1.7951 NYRC Rockland County 41.1347 -73.9746 194 2.1202 NYBM Beaver Meadow 42.6757 -78.3721 148 3.4023 NYCM Chatham 42.3797 -73.6461 138 1.4681 NYMT Monticello 41.5678 -74.6321 137 3.0444 NYOS Oswego-Fulton 43.3983 -76.4742 102 1.6518 NYRM Rome 43.3035 -75.4732 78 2.9434 NYSO Scio 42.1668 -78.0667 66 2.5882 NYWA Watertown 44.0071 -75.9843 64 1.6495 NYSL Saranac Lake 44.3167 -74.0730 45 0.3830 NYHP Huyck Preserve 42.4980 -74.2170 15 0.3947

Yeah, yeah.... Here is a partial report on this years Christmas Bird Count for mourning doves, done just this past week or so.... Note Location and in BOLD first number is doves seen, second number is hours in the blind. As I already said, December is not prime time to see mourning doves in NY because of migration and mortality. Numbers of resident and stop over doves in the fall are much greater. December 2015 Christmas Bird Count Mourning Dove – NY Mourning Dove Export to: PDF | Excel | Word | CSV NYUD Ulster-Dutchess 42.0280 -73.9537 486 4.2445 NYOD Oneida 43.0957 -75.6522 398 8.2062 NYCT Catskill-Coxsackie 42.2871 -73.8823 364 3.6129 NYSI Staten Island 40.5833 -74.1500 344 3.7189 NYML Mohonk Lake-Ashokan Reservoir 41.8516 -74.1292 332 3.6889 NYCH Conesus-Hemlock-Honeoye Lakes 42.7776 -77.6161 302 3.0200 NYOO Oak Orchard Swamp 43.1517 -78.3904 272 2.9405 NYNN L.I.: Northern Nassau County 40.8660 -73.5938 261 1.4978 NYEO Eastern Orange County 41.4811 -74.1473 232 2.4946 NYSB St. Bonaventure 42.1082 -78.4844 223 4.3092 NYSY Syracuse 43.1000 -76.0833 219 1.7951 NYRC Rockland County 41.1347 -73.9746 194 2.1202 NYBM Beaver Meadow 42.6757 -78.3721 148 3.4023 NYCM Chatham 42.3797 -73.6461 138 1.4681 NYMT Monticello 41.5678 -74.6321 137 3.0444 NYOS Oswego-Fulton 43.3983 -76.4742 102 1.6518 NYRM Rome 43.3035 -75.4732 78 2.9434 NYSO Scio 42.1668 -78.0667 66 2.5882 NYWA Watertown 44.0071 -75.9843 64 1.6495 NYSL Saranac Lake 44.3167 -74.0730 45 0.3830 NYHP Huyck Preserve 42.4980 -74.2170 15 0.3947

Mourning Dove Population and Distribution in NY State Note: This report is not complete and is still in progress.Stay tuned.... • DEC Mourning Dove Banding Effort: The DEC participated in a five year banding study which was recently completed. We are confirming locations of banding, and number of doves banded each year and will include this data in this report. Thus far, we have some partial data from Region 9: in the town of Portland, the DEC banded between 200 and 300 mourning doves per year. • Christmas Bird Counts (CBC): These counts are done in December every year in all sections of the state. Note that mourning dove populations are not likely to be near peak during the CBC because of migration. We are collecting CBC data which will be included in this report. We have some data from the Plattsburg region Christmas Bird Count of 2006. Here is the numbers for that year: Ferrisburg: 579 mourning doves. Plattsburg: 442 mourning doves. Elizabethtown: 171 mourning doves. Saranac Lake: 84 mourning doves. • Miscellaneous: Mourning doves nest in “great numbers” in Long Island, the Lower Hudson Valley, and the Lake Ontario Plains. Mourning dove populations have increased in NY for the past 40 to 45 years as evinced by population surveys done by the FWS.

Before I read all that, do you mean what you say or do you say what you mean this time?

Being a Dove Advocate 1. Individuals such as yourself acting as an advocate for dove hunting is essential to the success of the dove initiative. 2. Outreach on hunting matters is always very difficult. There is no exception to this, just ask any DEC staff. 3. Never expect people to be informed or even interested in the subject, this is why outreach and advocacy is so important. 4. Expect a few naysayers in every crowd. 5. Because so few are informed about the matter and the inevitable naysayers you need to be prepared. Use our online outreach tools to first inform yourself and then to inform those whom you speak to. 6. At first you might not influence many people. You may even feel your efforts are backfiring. However, as you gain experience conducting outreach you will get better and better. 7. Remain confident and stick to your narrative as all of the information we promulgate is accurate, verifiable, and in the correct context. In contrast, the narratives of naysayers are none of that. 8. Do not feel obligated to defend everything you say. Remember there are 12 million hunters in the USA and each of them have opinions about numerous topics. As you become more skilled you will find it easier to defend your statements, but that does not equate to an obligation of responding to absurd opinions or repeatedly address the same subtopic over and over to no end.

Just as we tell people over and over: 1) It is not wise to compare dove hunting with deer hunting, but dove hunting should be compared with other activities which are legal in NY such as bear dog training, falconry, and trapping.... Refer to this article, including the graphs: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/is-lack-of-interest-credible.html 2) We also tell people that dove hunting in NY should not be compared with dove hunting in Argentina or even Texas. Instead, compare it with our borders, see this graph: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/mourning-dove-hunting-activity--harvest-around-new-york--2012-2013-for-ontario-can-large-map.html 3) There is indeed a"hunt-able" population of modo in NY - there are more modo than the combined number of deer, turkey, and coyote. And they are found in every county. There are far more doves in NY than the common pigeon. Here is a graph comparing the nationwide distribution of mourning doves to the common pigeon: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/mourning-dove-bbs-summer-distribution-map-vs-rock-dove-pigeon-bbs-summer-distribution-map.html I think its about time a few of you start backing up your mouths with some data. You come on here and opine about things you know absolutely nothing about. Then when confronted, you back out of your own statements- for example FSW said he has not seen a dove from border to border or grouse in his area, However, FSW lives next door to fort drum. I posted a link which Fort drum wildlife biologists document both doves and grouse all the time. Now, FSW says he meant "huntable' populations. Maybe everyone should just ignore FSW until he learns how to speak in the exact context he means? Shwan HU indicated a lack of doves proximate to NYC. I explained that the hudson valley and NYC is in fact a significant migration corridor, but shawn hu dissed what I said and continued. So I posted a summary report of airplane crashes involving mourning doves in airports around NYC. Shawn Hu then disputes the merit of that summary. Yet, neither FSW nor Shawn Hu back up ANYTHING they say with any sort of verifiable data. In contrast, the info I provided can indeed be verified. I included source references in this thread, and our online material also includes source references as well for those inclined to fact check. Elmo, there are indeed hunters who we need to educate. In your outreach efforts use the tools we have created for that purpose. Remember the power point slide show we created for addressing groups? We have a fact sheet you can print out and hand out as well. Face to face discussions are very important. If possible present with our power point, You can also print out business cards, fact sheets, and targets to hand out, all of which will provide them with our online sites to go to for more info and to stay updated. Print out the petition as well, and get them to sign on the spot. You can also refer them to our newsletter you receive. Here is a link to our fact sheet: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/mourning-dove-fact-sheet.html

You live next to Fort Drum if I recall? You also have said a few times both ruffed grouse and mourning dove are scarce or absent from your area, is that correct Mr. Reardon? Here is a link from the Fort Drum wildlife management department. This is sightings during September 2015. Go to page 3 and refer to column 1. From the top, go down to the six line, where it indicates ruffed grouse have been observed.Then, from the bottom, go up 14 lines, and it indicates mourning doves have been observed. http://fortdrum.isportsman.net/docs/default-source/wildlife-viewing-natural-history/wildlife-viewing-report-30sep2015.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Budget and State of State at 12:30 today, here is the link: http://www.governor.ny.gov/

Something to follow:

There are indeed limitations to predicting the personal decisions made by people on how they recreate or spend their discretionary income. A survey about the topic might provide fair insight, however, I am unaware of such a survey. NY Dove Hunting might do one in the future. We can put you down as one NYC person who will not pursue doves. Perhaps your opinion is widely shared among NYC hunters, but perhaps it is not. As already stated, we have an untested theory backed by logic, that a fair number of NYC hunters and potential NYC hunters would indeed benefit from a dove hunting season. Although NY Dove Hunting cannot dispute (your) theory about the above with any amount of certainty, we take issue with your repeated statement that there are not many doves proximate to NYC. Perhaps the airline data will convince you. Mourning doves have taken down a number of airplanes in NY, including at Stewards, LaGuardia, and JFK airports. I believe all three of these airports are in close proximity to NYC, is that not correct Mr. Hu? In all of NY, there were 47 plane collision strikes with mourning doves between 6/29/12 and 1/16/15. Please check out our report on NY airplane collisions with mourning doves at this link: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/airplane-strikes.html

Another thread about this, but I don't care to read about the reasons some people think what is going on is good and American. I certainly don't want to debate about it either. But I did come across four news articles some may want to read. I think this shows how much resolve the bird-watching community has. Also, someone on here raised the issue of them blocking people from hunting, seems they might. http://thelapine.ca/79-year-old-bird-watcher-takes-down-oregon-militant-with-old-high-school-wrestling-move/ http://www.addictinginfo.org/2016/01/05/40-million-badss-birders-just-declared-war-on-oregon-terrorists/ http://www.breakingburgh.com/enraged-birders-to-retake-oregon-wildlife-refuge-in-dawn-offensive/ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/5/1466254/-Warning-from-the-Birding-Community-to-the-Terrorists-in-Oregon-We-re-Watching-You