mike rossi

Well Bill and anyone else who is interested; The article in the original post of this thread is a complete and thorough report on the matter. It is disappointing this article did not catch fire on this site. It was very well-received elsewhere. I made a few other threads about the topic on this site recently as well. Quite a bit of info contained in those threads as well. Those interested might care to note that in addition to reading the article in the original post of this thread completely,follow the links and read them to. Additionally, here are two recent threads I started about the subject on this site: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/29889-antis-pick-fight-on-facebook-with-dec-pheasant-stocking-hunting/ http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/30599-the-new-york-hunting-community-needs-to-work-on-their-response-to-hunting-issues/page-2

Like I said, I lived out there about a third of my life, everybody is happy except for a few. If you ask his neighbors, who are about 5 miles a apart or go into town and talk, people will tell you he is a nut.... A bunch of eastern "city dudes" online characterizing this as if it is some sort of widely accepted attitude among rural folk or ranchers or farmers is all bunk. Go out there and talk to 20 people, see if anyone tells you he is not a nut job.... And correct, on federal land, you hunt, right among the cattle and sheep owned by private producers. Nobody is irate about it. The Indian reservations model their system the same way, a lot of whites running their cattle and sheep on rez lands too. Then, on private land, many, many, landowners are very cooperative with conservation programs on their land, sometimes they are paid, other times they are not. This eastern myth the ranchers and farmers hate black people, coyotes, and dont want to protect the environment is absurd. It even transgresses into NY when some of you go and offer to help with the coyote problem and 9 times out of 10 they laugh at you.... I am done here, this is absurd....

Curm, Is the Bundy clan actually a traditional ranch family first of all? I know that is what we read in the media and I believe what they say, but is it verified? He certainly looks like a big burly cowboy, but is he just a rich slicker who bought some land and got into the cattle business? How many upstaters think they can buy a dump on 10 acres on a county road, then a pick up truck and burn pallets in their back yards think they are rural folk since they moved out of the (sh)itty 20 years ago? Fact is, the majority of ranchers and other agricultural producers are very environmentally conscious and on very friendly terms with natural resource agencies, very often partnering with them, sometimes with financial incentives to do so, other times with no financial compensation at all. . Since most land is in private ownership, that is a good thing. Despite most land in private ownership; in the west, many federal public acres are prime grazing land, and the owners (the federal government) allow ranchers to increase their income by increasing their herd size or the health (size/.meat yield) of their herd by leasing them land at well below market value. Yes, back in the wild west, cattlemen would let their stock roam the prairies and then shoot it out with other cattlemen or anyone who pissed them off. Really Mr. Bundy, is that what you stand for? Curm, your post here gives urban/suburban easterners a platform to rock the right wing narrative without any idea of what they are talking about or without any back ground with livestock, western culture, rural sociology, or the relationship between landowners and private lands biologists working for the federal gov, state gov, or NGOs. Why add to the confusion? You are punching right wingers, which is no better when they punch hippies. If you are so inclined, I got plenty of work to keep you busy and it is work that will actually make a difference....

You can easily get some practice because webinars are very common. Just find any old webinar, it does not have to be anything from the DEC, hunting related, or even something you are interested in. Just get some "practice". Otherwise when you want to participate in one you are interested in, such as this one, you might experience "technical problems". This is the wave of the future, so it is a good idea for people to start getting familiar with webinars. We (NY Dove Hunting) want to start using them, but they have not yet caught on with many people in the hunting community.

The Anti-Pheasant Hunting Narrative (a set of predictable stories with repetitive refrains) is a cleverly layered case against pheasant hunting purposely designed with seductive premises which resonate with a broad public. That diverse group includes some conservationists and hunters who are willing to bolster (the pheasant and dove rhetoric of the Humane Society) to undermine certain forms of hunting.... Read More: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-case-for-state-pheasant-stocking-programs.html

Elmo, At some point, we will be delivering a copy of our petition to each Legislator in their Albany office. Upon review of the petition lawmakers will determine how many signatories reside in their district. When Lawmakers are not in their Albany office, they are in their local office, in your case in the Bronx. A friendly visit to those local offices, or at least polite letters from a few of the signatories residing in their district, will have a positive impact. The more cordial and better salesman local advocates are, the more positive the impact. Since you appear cordial, other than a few humane-endorsed reps, I can't imagine most of them slamming the door on you. I have to double check, but I don't think their are any humane - endorsed reps in the Bronx anyway, and, as a matter of fact, some of the communications we have had with certain lawmakers from the Bronx have been favorable. A visit or a letter from one of their constituents about the matter might be enough to persuade their vote or even sign on as a bill sponsor.

Visiting with your state reps is private, so is writing to them. Sometimes state reps have citizen days, where they have an open house and you can go in and speak to them about your desires. But you can also call and make an appointment to visit with them.Or, just send them a well written letter or email every month or so. Explain you are a local constituent and what specifically you are after. Part of the gestalt of this thread is that your state reps in the Bronx or their staff who you probably will first contact, might be lukewarm or worse to any pro-hunting initiatives you approach them with or ask them to support. However, being a strong advocate is only as hard as being better informed smarter than the opposition. If you read our articles about Patrick Kwan and Casey Pheifer, and see what these dorks look like, you might feel a little more comfortable. You might also get motivated when you realize it is basically two freaks running the show in NY who continue to succeed in reducing your opportunity to hunt. We also published an article which describes the attitude of a few legislators. As we continue to communicate with them, we continue to gain insight about them, that knowledge can be passed on to you to help you communicate with them, Being an advocate is not easy, but it isnt as bad as a visit to the dentist either. It just requires a little planning and common sense.

Work with the right organizations representing hunters, plain and simple. Blogging on the internet, as you are doing, does actually help, but it is not enough. The attitude of the hunting community today is much different than it was in the past. That would not be surprising, except in the fact it is not due to a younger generation, it is driven by guys in their 60's, 70's and 80's. Its a waste of time trying to figure out what happened, the effort should be in promoting a different perspective. Many of the trouble makers won't be around in 20 years to see the damage they have done to the hunting tradition.

I got frustrated here and apologize. Until I reminded myself that these kinds of responses show us what info we need to focus on and get out to the hunting community. However, are do not enjoy being a polemicist or an iconoclast. In order to avoid making convoluted subjects even more convoluted, requires discipline in staying relevant to the topic.I tried to point out, the annex NYC from the state narrative actually alters the focus from the immediate problem - if a crash victim is bleeding to death and while treating him the doctor discovers he also has cancer, he does not stop treating the bleeding which will kill in seconds and focus on the cancer which kills over time. Realistically, annexing NYC probably is never going to happen, and it certainly is not going to happen anytime soon. So lets focus on solutions that are practical and actually will work. Another enemy of finding solutions is focusing on the difficulty. I know its difficult first of all, and second of all this is often how trolls undermine initiatives they do not want to advance, or when they do not like the person proposing the initiative. Or they are simply google trolls who make one penny a click for their employee, which adds up to a lot of money with an army of people on line 24/7/365.... So, the goal here, is to get a list of hunters that live in NYC, and an outlet, such as a newsletter and/or online presence to keep them updated and engaged. I have a few ideas, I would like to here yours, and get a few guys to step up and launch this. And then stick at it after it is launched. As far as the tone here about this being vested in the dove matter: we disagree with a few on this board who say the majority of NYC hunters are not interested in dove or other small game hunting because of travel time. That theory seems to be based on the premise that NYC hunters are seeking to obtain wild game meat the cheapest way possible.We feel that most hunters are out for the experience, although part of the experience is obtaining and using wild game meats. For us to create just another organization that focuses on whitetail deer, turkey, and gun rights, would be like throwing sand on the beach or salt into the ocean. Those of you who are concerned or passionate about those matters should create such an organization, rather than distort the goal of organizing NYC hunters so that they not only have their own voice, but they can be a voice along with upstate and Long Island hunters - because as of now the only voice regarding hunting matters out of NYC is from the antis. 1% or .01% or .001% of the population does not matter, a recent article we published explained that as well. Additionally, as we stated, we have indeed been speaking to NYC lawmakers. Among those NYC lawmakers we are beginning to get a sense of who is paying attention to us, who finds us credible and who is rejecting us. As we continue to educate them and gauge their receptiveness, we will have acquired significant info about them, as well as influenced the thinking of some of them.

Two more things, rebel darling, where in THIS thread do I discuss introducing a bill? The other thing you seem to not be aware of, and thereby are misleading people is about negotiation. A vote for a pro hunting bill, such as the rifle bill, does NOT necessarily indicate even a slight approval of hunting, here is why: We (NY Dove Hunting) tell our advocates, when talking to legislatures they might say, for example, the FWS allows the DEC to set a dove season 100? days long and murder up to 15 doves a day. This bill, if passed, only sets an 80 season and hunters can only murder 10 doves a day. So, when the DEC Legislative Affairs Branch Lobbies the Legislature on behalf of a rifle bill, they are doing so because it will increase harvest to better meet population goals and it will likely boost conservation funding because center-fire rifles will be purchased. So how does the DEC LAB approach members of the Legislature who oppose hunting? They might use a narrative such as center-fire rifles are more efficient and result in more humane harvesting of deer which need population management...... The underlying suggestion is center-fire rifles are more humane than other weapons and deer hunting is already occurring. Not only is that palatable to the Legislator herself or himself, but it gives them a bone they can throw at their constituents / donors. For example the lawmaker can say to constituents:" we were not able to ban deer hunting, but this bill made it more humane"..... Such is the way its done. Most of you all just have not heard about it or figured it out..... Hopefully, this conversation can redirect back to getting NYC hunters enumerated and a voice.......

Apparently, you do not.....

From that perspective, you are missing a large point of this thread. NYC is part of NY state, but the hunters who live in NYC are not given a voice. What exasperates that, is that anti-hunters have a strong voice among the 66 assembly districts. You got the part right that NYC Legislators have a say so about hunting policy over the entire state. But you are missing the point that they are not at all representing the minority of their constituents who live in NYC and hunt. NY Dove Hunting believes, with organization and leadership that this can be improved. I would like to discuss the means to such improvement, not get into all this extraneous and irrelevant bull.

Malliotakis clearly is anti-hunting. Despite her vote on the rifle bill she has sponsored many, many anti hunting bills and has voted AGAINST many, many pro hunting bills. She is endorsed by the HSUS and several state-level anti hunting organizations. Also, you are over-emphasizing the role of the senate and assembly encon committees. Senator Avella, is the vice chair of the senate encon commmittee, and he too, is a staunch anti-hunter. The Senate Chair of the Encon committee you ask about is Thomas O'Mara. This is all a little off topic, however, we completely addressed this in this article: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-new-york-state-legislature-up-close.html Or, just look at the cartoon in the article if you dont read - we know the process, and we know the people involved in the process. Perhaps we know it better than any other organization in the state.

Well, we need to find out how many reside there. It is difficult to get that info from the DEC, thanks in part to the state hunting organizations who seem to have some good intentions, but I am not sure if this policy does more good than harm. I agree with those who think democrats hunt. We did a report on that too, as well as how party majority effects hunting legislation - I dont want to fill this thread up with those reports, but just saying I agree and those reports are on the website. I think there are many hunters who think that way about republicans though, so strong is that belief, it would be remiss not to comment on it. I also think the Humane Society of the US knew exactly what they were doing when they reached out to Malliokakis. As wealthy as the HSUS is, they figured they would be able to control the NY Legislature with a targeted plan, rather than contributing funds to everybody's campaign. Here they got only two republicans on the entire assembly in NYC, they already got many of the dems in their pocket, why go after all the dems and both repubs.... They know how to spread their money.

Legislators have an office in Albany and an office where they represent. NYC has 66 assembly reps alone, plus state senators. I would be hard - pressed to believe two things: 1) Any hunters living in those districts ever walks in the offices and talks shop. Or even calls, emails, or sends a letter to them through the post office. 2) That even if a local hunter did walk into his representatives office and would leave actually feeling "represented". Yet, a local anti - hunter would have a much different experience. Lets stop with the bull on this post please. I find it hard to believe ( but not impossible to believe) that some of you do not understand the issue. Nobody has suggested, that for example, lets say - Elmo's assembly and senate rep can create hunting opportunity in NYC. However, I think everyone understands, that the Legislators in NYC do indeed weigh in on hunting matters statewide. I am pointing out the irony, that they only hear from or heed, the antis, not the hunters who they represent who live in their districts. I do not know how many hunters that is, but if NYC demographics are comparable to New Jersey, there may be 50,000 to 70,000 hunters living in NYC.

What are your thoughts on the following paragraphs: NY City, which is comprised of Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, Bronx, and Yonkers has a whopping 66 assembly districts! (Queens = 18, Brooklyn = 20, Staten Island = 4, Manhattan = 12, Bronx = 11 and Yonkers = 1). ​Downstate republicans in the Assembly? NY City only has two republicans elected to the assembly over those 66 districts, and both of them are in Staten Island. Joe Borelli is a republican from Annadale, which is assembly district 62. Nicole Malliokakis is the other republican from Rosebank, which is assembly district 64. However, Malliokakis is endorsed by the Humane Society of the US and other anti-hunting organizations, and likely receives campaign contributions from them as well.

Ok, lets try it again..... THESIS: Everybody who lives in NYC has a say-so about hunting policy EXCEPT people who live in NYC that buy hunting licenses..... PROOF: If a NYC hunter goes into speak to his state assembly rep or his state senate rep about hunting matters, he will not likely get any satisfaction. In contrast, any other constituent who is opposed to hunting and/or requests their rep supports existing anti hunting legislation or sponsors a new anti hunting bill; he/she is likely to be accommodated. Now, Disprove the Thesis or Agree with it..... Comments? Opinions? So how can this be pass as a legitimate system? Because nobody ever thought of it this way? I am not going to develop the thesis, launch a poll, start a website, face book group, and forum dedicated to this issue by myself, I want input. This is the one issue I would like to have the antis in on the discussion, and the politicians. I really want to see how they reconcile this. By the way, there are only two members of the Assembly in NYC who are republicans, both are on Staten Island. Joe Borrelli District 62 and Nicole Malliokakis District 64. And, of these two lone NYC republicans on the Assembly one of them is endorsed by the Humane Society of the United States. Read about it here: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-new-york-state-legislature-up-close.html

The only people in NYC, who have no voice in hunting-related matters, is the hunting community that resides in NYC.... Mind Boggling......

Not sue how this post strayed so far. It started with an offer to start organizing NYC hunters. Surprisingly, and, disappointingly, nobody responded. I then was posting region-specific info, but in region 2 I decided to just add it to this post. Then, I start to get replies, not closely related to either the original post nor post number 2.... So I guess I will just give post number 2 another try, please follow the link and engage in this campaign related to the dove matter, thank you! http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/call-to-action.html

The Why, The How, And The You Its Not The Who – Its YOU! For most people today, political activism amounts to little more than expressing their opinion publicly.Debate and discussion are certainly part of the core of this nation’s political system, and we commend anyone willing to speak up and let their voice be heard on a larger scale. It takes patience to express your beliefs and let people challenge you, and maturity to listen to opposing viewpoints and weigh in with reason and thought. Activism, does, however, require a little bit more. Have you ever heard the rallying cries that “we should do something” about a public issue? Who, exactly, is the “we” that should be taking action? For the majority of people, expressing displeasure on social media is about as far as their action goes – after that, it’s up to the government or some other anonymous “we” to pick up the pieces and make things happy again. Most self - proclaimed activists are little more than opinionated individuals that somehow believe that vocalizing their personal discomfort makes a profound difference in the world. Is that really activism? "Meaningful Action" By all means, express your personal opinions. Just don’t think that society owes you anything in return. If you want to see a difference, you have to take meaningful action. We say meaningful action for a good reason: Think of it this way: If you put foreign money in an American vending machine, it’s not going to give you product in return. Sure, you’re taking action. You’re doing something…you’re even putting money into the coin slot, which is supposed to work…but it’s not the right currency. It takes the right currency, applied in the right place, followed by appropriate actions, to get a soda out of a machine. Political activism is the same. It takes the right actions, applied in appropriate places at correct times, to effect change. The Why Activism takes action, and it’s not easy or convenient, so most people won’t do it. The American Revolution was started, and won, with support from less than 1/3 of the population of the British colonies because that small percentage was willing to take meaningful action. Despite popular belief, majority does not always rule. Decisions in this country aren’t made by a popular vote – they’re influenced primarily by the people who are willing to step out of their comfort zones and do what’s not always easy. Your voice does matter: Just make sure you’re talking to the right people. DEBATE Lawmakers might engage in debates prior to voting on a dove bill: 1) Influence Lawmakers to side with your position. 2) Give Lawmakers Facts they can use to win debates with their colleagues. 3) That is why NY Dove Hunting throws facts at the hunting community, use them! Another Spin on the Legislative Process In NY, there are four key Legislative leaders we must FIRST convince to allow the bill to proceed forward for a vote. Sometimes, hunting-related bills can be referred to additional committees, and when that occurs, we also must use facts and political pressure to persuade the chairs of those committees. Early in the procedure, the bill must be given the green light by the Assembly Environmental Conservation Committee Chair and the Senate Environmental Conservation Chair. At that stage, the members of the environmental conservation committee(s) may “debate” the merits of the bill After a bill is voted through the En-Con Committees, then two other legislative leaders decide if the bill has merit to move to a General Floor Vote. Those Legislative leaders making that decision are the Assembly Speaker and the Senate Majority Leader, sometimes called the senate president. Thus, by the time the bill clears committee(s), both of these Leaders should have heard from YOU and others, and have been presented with facts which bode for the merit of the bill. Given approval by the Leaders, the bill will be voted on by the Floor. Before this vote occurs, there probably will be a debate. Most legislators are not knowledgeable about hunting and ecology. Thus, BEFORE a debate happens, their opinion about the dove matter is shaped by the correspondence they have received on the subject or the pending bill. Legislators who receive well written letters from hunters will be influenced by those letters. However, other lawmakers who receive letters from anti-hunters will be influenced differently. When a legislator receives a letter from an anti AND a letter from YOU, your letter needs to be factual so that you are found more credible than the opposition. If you are found credible, you can influence your state reps in the assembly and senate; and, you can also arm them with facts to use during debate. Without fodder, lawmakers will either go with the fodder they receive from the antis, or feel they are too uninformed to vote, or just vote along with the majority , or be influenced during the debate, but not participating in it. That is why NY Dove Hunting throws all these facts at the hunting community! After a Legislator forms an opinion about the matter, he is likely to recall the information he received in letters and use it as DEBATE FODDER before the FLOOR VOTE. The quality of the fodder YOU have provided your representatives in the assembly and senate will influence first his stance, second, how well he can influence his colleagues during debate. In NY, we need a majority vote of 76 out of 156 in the Assembly and 32 out of 63 in the Senate. Once the bill clears the floor, it goes to the Governor, for his decision. At that stage it is essential we then correspond with the Governor about the matter. Not Done Yet! The Regulation Setting Process is different and additional action is required! After the Governor signs a dove bill into law, then the DEC is given the authority to set a dove hunting season, or not to. It is very important at this stage to correspond with the DEC. Once the DEC decides to adopt a regulation allowing a dove season, there will still be a 45 Day Public Comment Period. It is essential you submit public comment in support of dove hunting to the DEC AGAIN during the 45 Day Public Comment Period. Continued Engagement Until The End! "Think Stamina" This is a long process which requires YOU to track it and keep writing and redirecting YOUR letters as the process evolves. It isn’t write one letter and you are done, although that certainly is better than nothing. The How Help other people be heard. So many hunters see the millions of people futilely arguing over issues with no effect, and they believe that there’s nothing that an individual can do in the face of a massive government. Show those hunters that there is a way their voice can be heard, and that it can matter. A few examples of things you can do are distributing contact information for elected officials, sharing the resources offered by NY Dove Hunting and offering education on the topic to the hunting community, policy makers, and wildlife biology students. Don’t Let Your Cause Get Linked to Nasty People Think about the people on your Facebook list who constantly belittle and insult others in order to make a point that their personal belief is somehow better and morally right. Don’t you dismiss them, and their cause, because of how they handle it? The last thing you want is for your ideals to be associated with terrible behavior, so if you consider yourself an activist, you should strive to be a positive, uplifting person so that your worthy cause doesn’t get linked to nasty people. Social Media works, But In Person Contact is Needed Too Politicians travel and campaign in person for a reason: that person to person contact is vitally important in the exchange of ideas. Organize, Organize, Organize! Most hunters can’t afford to hire full time lobbyists to work in Albany– but when a lot of people come together and put some time and effort as well as a little bit of money towards a cause, major changes can be made! Direct Your Effort Properly! If you want to encourage change by verbally expressing your opinion, make sure you’re talking to people who are involved in actually making those changes. Your voice DOES count. You just have to make sure you’re talking to the right people. Take Your Political Responsibility Seriously! When elected officials get face to face with constituents and see firsthand that hunters take their own political responsibility seriously, opinions are not so easily dismissed. Develop lobby day opportunities in your state, or organize your own group to take a trip to a state capital to put your voices in the right place. CURRENT Letter Writing Campaigns: January 2016 Ongoing Until Further Notice: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/call-to-action.html Additional Subject Matter Reading: http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-effects-of-democrats-republicans-and-election-years-on-re-instating-hunting-seasons.html http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/letter-writing.html http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-new-york-state-legislature-up-close.html http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/network-strategies.html

In discussing (this) topic, we need to keep separate and distinct hunter recruitment and organizing existing hunters. I agree that a portion of target shooters who do not currently hunt sometimes become hunters, and thus they are always potential recruits. However, my intent with this dialogue is to discuss organizing existing hunters. Another thing I want to point out, is we need local people,in all regions of the state, to step up and do the soliciting. As I indicated, we already provided online and professional support to NJ sportsmen, but after we dropped the ball, they failed to pick it up. We are willing to assist NYC from the air, so to speak, but there is little else we can do. As I said to you in a private message, the importance of organization is farther reaching than dove hunting. The question of where are the doves is a repetitive refrain we have addressed elsewhere and doesn't really fit into this thread.(Besides hunters also claim there are no rabbits, no grouse, no woodcock, and even no deer. I have read numerous posts this fall about some hunters unable to locate squirrels too). Never the less, mourning doves are found, and are abundant, in every county in NY. Anywhere along the NYC area is a major migration corridor for many species, including mourning doves. The only section of NY mourning doves are absent are in the high peak regions of the Catskills and the Adirondacks. However, hunters should not expect the presence of doves to always be obvious, although sometimes it is. You also need to consider that many mourning doves are migratory. With migratory game birds, there is often a small window of opportunity when game abundance is at its peak. Doves, being seed eaters, will coordinate their migration with the sexual maturity of weeds and crop harvest. You need to know what you are doing. Some states run managed dove fields and some family farms derive supplemental income from managing dove fields and charging hunters an access fee. In those situations, much of the task of finding doves is eliminated. But for the most part, hunters need to learn about the natural history and behavior of doves to be successful, just like in hunting all other game species. You also have to keep in mind, part of the the struggle is with the hunting culture in NY itself. The preference is for animals that are very visible - whitetail, wild turkey, squirrel, and even coyotes because they make a lot of tracks and noise. To illustrate this, consider that grouse are far more abundant than wild turkey in NY, yet much fewer people hunt grouse relative to the number of turkey hunters in NY.

I would say you will find mourning doves more readily than either deer or squirrel proximate to NYC. you just need to know what to look for. This may not apply to you, or others on this site, but we have a theory that there are a number of people who live in NYC who presently do not hunt, and do not want to deal with butchering a deer and all else inherent to deer hunting, that would be receptive to dove hunting. Particularly the Maltese-American population, as well as many Hispanics who carry a tradition of dove hunting, but not of hunting for deer or squirrel. Strongly agree, however, that organizing NYC hunters will be a challenge, but it can be done. This is the start.

We need to exert political pressure on.... Printable Letters.... http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/call-to-action.html

We need to exert political pressure on.... Printable Letters.... http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/call-to-action.html

We need to exert political pressure on.... Printable Letters.... http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/call-to-action.html