Buckstopshere

Split: Wow. That covers a lot of territory! Lots of ridiculous stuff in the world. And I am sure we would agree on most of it. ;D Seriously, if I got the Yearling Dispersal right, doesn't it follow that the yearlings that you passed on are going to be long gone? In other words it is a fantasy that they will be there to shoot next year when they are 2.5 year olds. Right?

Guys, read the science about yearling dispersal. Quote: Upwards of 70% leave for parts unknown, whether it is 300, 500 or 1,000 acres. It is an oversold myth to think those little guys you pass on are all going to hang around. The idea is to let hunters shoot the little guys, get out of the woods and protect the 2.5 year olds and take some of the pressure off them because those are the ones the following year, if they make it through that we all talk about. The no shooting of yearling bucks puts tremendous pressure on the 2.5 year olds that's why some of the properties that have drank the Kool Aid of AR management scratch their heads when they can actually look at the production and realize that they are not shooting any bigger bucks than they ever did. I know that shooting the little guys seems counterintuitive. I used to think like you guys....but the protection of yearling bucks and thinking they will all hang around, grow into a dandy buck to shoot the following year, or even the year after that is another case of a beautiful theory murdered by a ruthless gang of facts.

Great line. Ha! ;D It is right up there with: "Another beautiful theory murdered by a ruthless gang of facts."

About a week ago I saw a big buck bedded in a field, there were two other bucks with him, one had both horns, one had only one horn, and the big guy that was bedded had those big 50 cent piece size red spots on his head. 'Course I backed out of there, hoping he will make it through until next year. That buck that tossed his antler, it was a pretty surreal experience. I wondered at night a bit if it was real or not, since I couldn't find it. Who would believe me if I didn't have the horn? When I showed my buddies, the base was still pinkish red from the blood. Already, it is just about all white with a bit of brown, just a hint of pink left and it has only been a little over a week. Took me two hours the next morning, starting at dawn....it was 4 degrees F. Followed every track in that big field, over and over....finally found it. If someone saw me, they would have thought I was nuts....and they are right! http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/grin.gif[/img] I was very lucky it did not snow that night.

On the last weekend of the muzzleloader season I shot at a decent eight-point in a field and missed. He ran towards me and stood about 50 yards away and I saw he only had one horn (so I didn't try to reload and shoot him. Should be a nice buck next year.) He started nodding his head and then the left horn flew off, spun three times in the air and landed in the snow. I couldn't find it that evening, but did the next morning. Here it is... But it didn't fall off. He started nodding his head and threw it off. And then he jumped sideways like a fawn does almost glad to be rid of it....here it is when I found it the next morning, before I picked it up.

Right, except there is a sanctuary on one side of the property, real thick and butting up against houses and residential land that nobody hunts, scouts, or peeks into (30 acres.) The does hang in there, as well as their boyfriends. My two scents is that the sanctuary on a piece of hunting ground is as important, if not moreso than food, or any management plan. It was amazing to see it work this year.

"Soooooo if people shoot up all of the little guys, where do the older ones come from? The only way you can get mature bucks is to let them walk when they are young. There is no deer in the woods that is more stupid than a young buck in the rut." Your premise that "All" the little guys get shot is not accurate around these parts in the Southern Zone on large, controlled properties. The idea is to take the pressure off the 2.5 year olds so they have a chance. Let's say on a 500 acre piece you have 10 yearlings, five 2.5 year olds and one or two 3.5's or better. And you let 10 guys hunt it, year after year. When you think about it...which property will produce the most big bucks in reality...? The one that protects only the yearlings or the one that allows a bunch of yearlings to be harvested and therefore the bigger bucks to live? Which one would you or the average guy want to hunt on if you had a choice, one with a good possibility of a real racker...or one overrun with little guys?

There is tremendous yearling recruitment to well-managed (sanctuary, food plot, controlled access) properties. A large percentage of yearling bucks (70%) travel great distances, naturally. It is called yearling buck dispersal. Chances are that those yearling bucks that are protected will not be around next season anyway. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/707300/where_does_the_buck_stop_pdf

A guy I know has great success, coming at this buck management thing from a different perspective. He has been managing a large property for a number of years and lets a number of family and friends hunt it. He allows them to shoot any legal buck, but no does or antlerless bucks. Most of the hunters shoot yearling bucks, they tag their deer and are done for the season. Everybody is happy...especially the big bucks because they have a much better chance of making it through the season, and the competition for does and food is pared down. And besides the big bucks, especially the landowner because by letting his hunters shoot the small bucks,... the 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks have a much better chance to make it through the season. In other words, by allowing yearling bucks to be shot, the pressure is lessened on the 2.5 year old deer to really turn into real dandy animals. The popular buck management Kool Aid being so-over sold now is to protect the spikes and scrubs and shoot the 2.5 that is a bit bigger. Whack all the bigger ones and leave the little guys...each year. How is that going to produce real trophy bucks, (if that's the goal?) It doesn't. It just produces a bunch of 2.5 year olds that are certainly nice bucks in their own right, but because of all the hunting pressure on them, very, very few ever go beyond.

In order to answer that question, we would have to know what the deer population is in any locale, specific unit, or in the state. And that metric is on the one hand, not considered important, and on the other hand...is extremely difficult to pin down. If it was up to you, when would you think a population count could be taken? (Even if it could.) At the beginning of the deer season would be one number, after the season would be another and very different (like half,) and a third number could be taken after the fawn drop...probably doubles again. So the DEC counts the hunter success reports, check stations, processors, and CO reports and then figures a reporting rate. Usually the Northern Zone reports under 50% while the Southern Zone traditionally has a little bit higher reporting rate. As I recall the reporting rate for for DMU permits is historically below that of "regular" tags.

Just my opinion, but the rut is not a one-dimensional thing as it is so often described. There are three main rut peaks each season, but that doesn't mean that does are coming into estrus here and there...sporadically, all through the three main breeding months (October, November, and December) here in the Northeast and Midwest. That spotted fawn was probably a late-conceived fawn and hit the ground in late summer.

From what I've seen and other hunters told me, what some call the chase phase is done, it's over. The bucks are with the does for the most part. Now is the breeding time. And if they get spooked, with all the action in the woods, the bucks will be running with the does. And when that happens, sometimes they grunt and it gets mistaken for the chase "phase" which happened back around Halloween. Last night a buddy of mine, saw a big buck standing in an oat field with a doe. Typical of the breeding time of the rut.

Doc: When I read the name and location, in the paper yesterday, I thought it might be a relative. So sorry for your tragic loss. Condolences to you and your family.

Don't give up, if you've got the time. One of the great things about bowhunting deer is, just when you think you have it all figured out...the deer always do something that surprises us. And we learn... and that is really what bow hunting is about to me. And that knowledge is so hard won. So ride your horse, take a break, get your spirit tuned and take your bow back out and hunt. All you need is a different perspective to figure them out. I would guess that they have you patterned.

The Rut happened around the first of November, a couple days before and a couple days after according to what I saw, other hunters, and trail cams. There will be a secondary spike in the breeding...the late rut as some call it Thanksgiving weekend. Now the deer are grouped into breeding groups, except for a few periphery bucks and the odd ball doe who will cycle after Thanksgiving in the secondary rut spike. . Saw my first "Whitetail Breeding Nucleus" this morning. First, three does, followed by a thick-necked eight point, three small bucks were hanging on the outside...not to close, and a couple small does were on the edges too. The WBN slowly moved through the golden rod at first light after feeding in a corn field and moved back into a property owned by an anti-hunter.

Congrats!! Beautiful buck!

If it was me, I'd go to the closest archery shop and let the expert there watch you shoot. It would be the quickest way to get your bow tuned. Save you a lot of time and frustration.

Congrats!! I have one very similar and he scored 137 and change gross. Beautiful buck.

Good luck guys! Keep me posted how it works out. And take pictures! ;D

Thanks. Yeah, I thought it up. Zip-tied branches from other hot scrapes work so well...I guess it was a natural! This guy came in on Wed. evening. (11/3/10.) One of the cotton balls is still on the zip-tied branch over the scrape...and you can see him flehmen-ing (open mouth.) He's a big buck, not the biggest rack...but if he gives me a chance, I'd like to take him.

After killing a mature doe and swabbing out her mouth with cotton balls, I zip-tied a couple to a zip-tied overhanging branch to see what it would do. If you look carefully, you can see a cotton ball fly. The bucks went crazy. That next day, three came in, also a pair of fawns, and a doe. All couldn't leave the branch alone.This guy is the first in (11/1/10.)

That is a lethal hit. If the arrow stays in the deer, the action of the hind leg grinds the head around and opens up a huge hole. Also, the femoral artery runs down the center of the leg, next to the hip socket. They drop like they are heart shot. Congrats and thanks for sharing the story!

Nice buck!! Congrats. Can't wait to hear the story!

Wow! What a beauty! Congrats!! Very cool on the video!!

Got two on trail cam...vid clips visiting a zip-tied branch scrape in the daytime! Tried a new spin on it. Killed a doe nearing estrus Friday and swabbed her mouth with cotton balls. Put cotton balls in zip-lock bag. Zip-tied cotton balls to zip-tied overhanging branch. The next day the scrape was pounded, including these two nice eight-points. If you shoot a doe, use her saliva on the overhanging branch. I can not believe the action it produces...including a pair of fawns.