finfeathr

no respect, papabear, no respect...hahahahahahah good thing brant are born half blind huh?

Why bother? we can just find a spot that isn't posted, walk right on, and hunt..... [sorry Joe, I'm messing with you...I just couldn't pass up the oportunity..Hope you have a sense of humor!]

I would love to look up these parcels of land that have private, county, andtown land "interspersed", on L.I... I already stated that almost all state and county land on L.I. needs some sort of access permit, either Green key, DEC access permit, etc, so you would be covered if you had those access permits, unless of course you hunted the interspersed private land without permission. Why is it un-feasable to get permission from a private landowner simply because his land is interspersed with county land? They still have to pay taxes on it, so the info is available. Do the right thing and ask. By the way, just for the hell of it, I had an off-duty detective in the shop today, and showed him this post. He raised his eyebrows, chuckled, and said: "that is exactly how a little bit of legal knowledge gets alot of people into trouble". Do whatever you are comfortable with, it seems to be working for you somewhat, so far.. just remember, you are representing us all when you are out there..good luck.

you're kidding, right? You don't ask permission because you don't feel you have to? My stance has always been: DO THE RIGHT THING! If the shoe was on the other foot, and you were the landowner, I am absolutely certain you would feel differently about this issue. You aren't getting me to buy the story that you don't ask because you legally feel you don't have to..let's cut to the chase...you don't ask because you are pretty certain you would be turned down, it's that simple. So, you hunt where you want and just cut out the mddleman? Is that the logic? You can spout legalities and googalities 'til your heart's content, but it is still wrong to be on someone else's property without thier permission. I certainly would not want to deal with this kind of stuff when I went afield. It is a hell of alot easier to produce proof of eligability for being on the property, in the form of written permission, than it is to start spewing legalese to the person that finds you there. I know you think I am just arguing to keep an argument going, after all, this is the internet, but did you ever stop and think that maybe the reason that it's so hard to get access to available land, is situations just like this one? I know I would not be a happy camper if I owned a tract of land and had to deal with someone telling me they had a right to be on my land because a posted sign was missing, or I didn't "improve" the land in thier definition. I have said it over and over..each one of us is an emmissary for ALL hunters when we are out there. Why is it so damn hard to just do the right thing, and ask first?

The fundamental thing that you are not getting here is: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO USE THE LAND, YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE. It is not ethical or legal to do so. Some of you guys love to post examples of how you or someone you know got or gets away with it, and that's wonderful, I'm happy for you. I sincerely doubt that the day your luck runs out, you will run to the computer and type out a headline that someone kicked you out or had you arrested. Coming on a public forum and advocating that old "if it don't have a posted sign on it, you can hunt it" logic isn't a good way to go. I realize that this justification is bourne from frustration over losing hunting areas, and there not being enough areas to go to, but it just doesn't seem right that because YOU deem it "unimproved" or "vacant", it is yours to do as you see fit. As far as posting, many landowners realize quickly what a joke that is. I used to post land for a corporation for 20 years. I can't tell you how many times I would put posted signs up, and return 3 days later to see most of them torn down, and people parked in spots that" weren't posted". I would also encounter the ones that said the old"I've been hunting here for years" speach. You see, whether it was posted or not didn't seem to matter...they hunted there in the past, and it was" their" spot! The fact that it was posted and someone elses property had no bearing on the issue, in thier eyes. They had to go as far as laminating signs onto steel plates and lag bolting them to trees, and you know what? there were still those that would scour the property untul they found a spot without a sign and do the old "there was no sign" story. Hell, I had a guy in a climbing stand on the same tree as a potsed sign tell me he didn't see a sign... Is it such a big deal to do the right thing, do your homework, and get permission before venturing out? Most of you defending the "unimproved" land access are afraid to approach the landowner for fear of being denied access, and then you would have no recourse if you continued to use the land and got busted. Ignorance is bliss, but it certainly puts you back into the looking over your shoulder category..not a great way to spend the day. Bottom line again being, if you are on property that you do not own, or have permission to be on, you shouldn't be there. We all know that. Let's not kid ourselves, here. Arming yourself with a defense just in case you get caught is fundamentally wrong, and deep down, you all know it. How about giving the landowner the respect they deserve, and do the right thing from the get-go? I'll tell you one thing, even if you don't gain access, you will go a long way on promoting good hunter/landowner relations, and leave the owner with the pleasant thought that some people still do the right thing. Remember, each one of us represents ALL hunters when we are afield.. Do the right thing.

Thank goodness you bought dekes already painted...I have seen your paint jobs...they would either scare the hell outta the kid...or the ducks!

You are right, you probably won't be granted permission from a corporation, they would have too much liability to contend with. You may not get caught by an owner, but a security person will, as soon as someone from that corp. realizes that people are using the property. There is no "legal" way to hunt that property without permission, no matter what anyone with google experience tells you. You guys are proving my point again, you are using a clause in the law as a "get outta jail free" card. To answer you directly, if they deny you permission, then you don't use the land, period. As I stated earlier, it seems that alot of guys are afraid of being told "no", so they forego asking permission, and just tresspass thinking they can bluff thier way out of it with a little law knowledge...you originally asked this question because your buddy told you it was ok, but you weren't sure,right? Well, after 3 pages, it seems pretty clear you are playing with fire. Some guys don't mind looking over thier shoulder while hunting, but I can't fathom that approach, realistically. Believe me, I understand your frustration with finding open land. There simply isn't any around. It is either privately owned, county owned, or state owned. On L.I., I know that most state and county land requires an access pass to legally use it, either daily co-op, season co-op, DEC wetlands access permit, green key pass, etc. The bottom line is, if you don't have permission to use the land, then you don't belong there, plain and simple. Venturing onto property without contacting the owner first, with a pocket full of printed out and highlighted google pages seems to indicate that you went through alot of trouble to cover your ass, should you get caught. I would think that law enforcement would likely see it the same way. Instead of going through all the trouble to try and finagle your way out afterwards, I would expend that energy to secure permission first. That way, you will not have to carry a law book around with you all day, and you can actually enjoy yourself in the woods, which is why we all hunt in the first place. Like someone else said, do what you want, but you are rolling the dice here, in my opinion. Remember, this is L.I., land of litigation, lawsuits, anti-hunters, anti-gunners, and bunny huggers, be careful.

"Srtictest legal sense"...is exactly what I am talking about. You can go into court armed with an attorney and your printed from google documents, or, you could JUST DO THE RIGHT THING, and get permission to start with, and eliminate the problem for yourself. Again, the logic confounds me.. Case in point: You were hassled during a hunt, because you did not have permission from the new owners of the property. So, that not only terminated your outing for the day, but the landowner immediately put up signs, and I bet dollars to doughnuts, wouldn't let anyone he didn't know personally on the property again. You proved my point with the whole" representing all hunters" thing. Seems like that situation could have been avoided with a phonecall. So, in essence, the cops chose not to really thump you for lack of a posted sign, but did the landowner then welcome you back for a return hunt for educating them on the legalities of posting property? I think not, hence the shiny new posted signs. So now pretend you are a landowner for just a minute. You have a chunk of picturesque land, and the only way to keep people from wandering all over it is to put bright yellow signs 50 feet apart encompassing the entire parcell. This is L.I., not some backwoods swamp in Arkansas..everything is owned by someone. Do the right thing..ask permission first, avoid a problem later, and above all, provide a POSITIVE example of a RESPONSIBLE hunter.

The biggest problem is that we are such a "sue happy" state, it is hard to find a landowner willing to take on the resposibility. >

Yes, the state absolutely does own all of the deer....that does not, however, give an individual the right to access private land to harvest one.

and that is exactly why conflicts arise , and you know who looks bad?, ALL hunters. Traipsing across someone's property under the guise of "gee, it looked like unimproved land" is not going to do alot for you or any other future hunters endearing themselves to the landowner. What you are doing is looking for a loophole in case you get caught. Sorry, I prefer to hunt without looking over my shoulder. The original post was asking the legalities...the answer was given, and then as usual, somebody scours the fine print to find an escape clause. Like I said, that wording is put in there to protect the honest mistake guy, who wandered from a parcel of land he had permission to hunt, and ended up being somewhere else for whatever reason. It wasn't set up so that anyone, anywhere, can go onto private property so long as it doesn't have a fence and is deemed "unimproved" by the trespasser. I just don't understand the L.I. logic, I guess. Why is it so hard to get the name and address of the owner and ask permission? If they say no, it's no...thank them for thier time and consideration on the matter, and try again another time. I cannot understand the logic of locating a parcel, scouting it, anticipating a good hunt, etc, and wondering in the back of your mind, "gee, is this the day I get caught?" Talk about a waste of your time, and ruining your day, and possibly getting into serious trouble. I think the problem stems from the fear that if a guy asks permission and gets turned down, it's game over, whereas, ignorance is bliss..the end result will be the same. A pissed off landowner that has a bad taste in his mouth for ALL hunters. This is L.I. we are talking about. There is no land on this island that does not have an owner, somewhere. Take the time, do it right....like you said, use COMMON SENSE. If it were YOUR property, I would bet that you would be angry if you found someone in a treestand on YOUR land. We should extend the same courtesy to all landowners. Doing that little tiny bit of homework at the forefront will save a hell of alot of heartache and legal fees later. Just keep in mind that everything you do in the field represents ALL hunters...

That wording is put into the code to protect someone that legitimately "stumbles" onto private land. You will not get very far hunting wherever there isn't a fence because that clause is in the book. On L.I., all land belongs to someone...not too much state land around, and what little there is you usually need an access permit for. Always find out who owns the property, and get permission before entering. You have to do alot of covering your butt when hunting L.I....do the right thing the first time, so you don't have to look for legal loopholes later.

They sent my $$$ back, so it looks like a no-go...

I get lots of grey fox in for mounts, a few come from L.I. every year...Rich Fins to Feathers

The quality of available forage not the quantity is the deciding issue. Not really..like I said, critters will eat what they have to, to survive..they have been living through tough extremes for centuries, and still carry on year after year. They adapt. I cannot remember DEC changing a seasons dates because of a snowy winter...but maybe they have, I just can'r recall that happening. Quality of forage is relative...whatever they put into thier bellies doesn't really matter, as long as it converts to enough energy to maintain body temperature and keep the organs functioning. It is only short term, as there will be a plethora of better goodies to eat after the thaw...some won't make it, but most will.

I don't think you will see any changes. Winter kill is a natural phenomenon. It seems bad, but believe me, if deer cannot eat mast and whatever else they usually eat doe to snow, they will adapt and eat twigs, bark, and anything else they can scrounge to keep thier bellies full till better times...survival of the fittest...some weak will die...it certainly will not equate to a massive die off of the deer herd, resulting in reduced seasons. That would probably take a winter of cataclysmic proportions... I mean, we think we have it bad this year, but realistically, there are northern states that would laugh at what we have been calling severe, and don't forget Canada...those places all have deer still in springtime, so I wouldn't get too worried about it yet.. Rich

4's are ok for decoying birds..I use 2's most of the time, 2 3/4 inch...those magnum shells are unecessary and only encourage people to take long unethical shots..if you don't have a boat or dog, you need to be taking only decoying shots, about 20 yds or less, anything else, and you won't be able to retrieve what you shoot by wading, depending on tide and weather. If the birds you were shooting at were too high for your shells, they were likely too high for others as well. It's tough when starting out to judge distance, so thats why I am cautioning you to shoot close. The DEC patrols that spot frequently, and they will hassle you if all you have is a pair of waders, and you are shooting at far birds. Steel shot sucks, so close shots are a must. Stop in at DEC in Stonybrook, and get a wetlands access permit. There are several spots on the permit accessable by foot that offer less pressure than Timber Point..that place is pretty well shot out after the first week or so, and most of the hunters I have encountered there practice pretty shoddy ettiquette in thier pursuit of ducks and geese. I have seen heated arguments over who shot what duck, [when one set of guys was about 100 yards from the bird in question], people shooting at out of range birds constantly, guys hammering at ducks clearly working another hunter's spread, etc...I steer clear of most public spots for that reason...the wetlands permit will give you access to spots a little easier on grief... I am truly sorry that you started waterfowling..... You will now spend endless hours pouring over the fall Cabela's catalog. You will work overtime the rest of the year to afford the gear you will convince yourself you absolutely need. Your wife/girlfriend will become a widow for 2 months out of every year, never seeing you. Spare time will revolve around tides, decoys, shotguns, and weather fronts. Welcome aboard! Rich

hey Billy, the guy's pulling your leg..thats a mule deer..it ain't from around here!!!

no timmy, buckshot isn't legal for anything in NY as far as I know...bb or 2 shot will do.. they are thin skinned critters..

Night will afford you more opportunities, but foxes can definately be hunted during the day.. I have seen plenty of them out and about in the mornings and late afternoons..calling is a must... Rich

Again, I wasn't there, and you haven't stipulated exactly what was said, so I can only go on what I see on a daily basis in my shop. I do not give discounts, generally. If I do, it's at my discretion. The customer that brings in alot of work is more likely to get a discount if they don't ask for it. Some people think that because they brought in 4 birds, or 2 deer, that they should recieve a discount. That doesn't make sense considering the costs associated with them are exactly the same. If I discount them, I am getting more work, but for less money. It's simple business 101. Then, once you start the discount snowball, you can't stop it without someone getting mad. The guy you gave a discount to on a deer head wants it on the pheasant he just shot as well, his cousin comes in and wants a deal also...on and on..pretty soon the taxidermist might as well throw his pricelist out the window. Now, he has gotten some extra business from those discounts, but now he needs extra time to complete them, and at a reduced rate of pay. This is why you can't haggle at a dept. store or supermarket..the price is the price, you either accept the terms or not, the choice is yours. It comes with owning your own business, some people think that the prices are negotiable. Bottom line is you have the right to bring your animal anywhere you wish to have it mounted. If you don't like one shop's price or attitude, you always have an option somewhere else. Asking for a discount up front when dropping off an animal is insulting to the guy who has to do the work. You may not agree with that statement, but I know alot of taxidermists, and have been doing this trade for almost 30 years now, and I can tell you there isn't one taxidermist that doesn't get annoyed at the request anymore. Again, I am just relating how a taxidermist feels about it, and letting you see the other side of the picture. If the taxidermist you are referring to went crazy on you, and started carrying on in front of everyone, thats a bit outta line.. he should have simply stated that his prices are non-negotiable, and given you the opportunity to continue seeking a studio more open to your needs, or meet his price and leave it with him. He should not have made it a drama session. That kind of crap is unwarrented, and you probably should not have been subjected to it. You might want to look around before next season and view other artist's work and pricing so you have more options next time around. If there is a personality conflict, you definately want to patronize a different studio. Rich Fins to Feathers

I hesitate to get into a debate about discounts and asking for them, etc....bottom line is, I keep my prices as low as I can, but I still have to make money. Taxidermy pays my mortgage and puts food in the fridge. I get annoyed when people ask for a quote, then ask if I can do better, or what if my buddy brings his in too?, etc...in short, I don't haggle. I do discount some peices for a few customers..the guys that have been coming to me with 3 or more heads a year for 10 years. The big catch is, they don't ask for it..I will give them a break at my discression. Case in point: had a guy drop off a duck today. He asked the price, I told him $175. He sighs, and states that last time I charged him $125. I politely explain to him that was about 7 years ago, supplies and shipping has gone up expotentially, and raising the price over 7 years was not too bad a deal, since the next cheapest guy I know of is at $200 for ducks. He tried every avenue to get a discount out of me: He's a member of such and such club, alot of his friends hunt, blah blah.. I didn't bend, and he accepted the price. The guy you had a bad experience with didn't have to be a dick about it, but you might have been the tenth guy trying to get a discount that day, and he probably was just done with that whole scene, and you got the brunt of it... You see, there is no discount on the taxidermist's end. Tanning costs the same for 2 capes or 100, forms cost the same, and shipping has gone through the roof, so the only place that discount you asked for is going to come from is his profit. Look at it this way, if your boss came to you and said, "listen Joe, I need you to work an extra hour on Friday, but I am not gonna pay you for it,ok?" I would imagine your response would be less than understanding. It's the same situation, just flipped... Another scenario I use is this: If you go to Kmart to buy dogfood, you see the price, decide whether you want it or not, then pay the cashier, and leave.....you certainly would not go to the register and say"Hey, this dogfood is $13.95, would you take $10 for it?" would you? But since most taxidermists own thier own business, everyone wants to haggle...it just gets tiresome after awhile. Hope I could shed a little light on the subject from the taxi's point of view, thats all..... Rich Fins to Feathers

There won't be an update unless they find a venue to hold it at.....they ain't gonna put an ad in the paper till they know if and when it will be....

Nice bunch of guys, they have a really nice 3d archery range there....set up in the woods like real hunting situations. Rich

Don't shop for price, shop to see if you like a taxidermist's work...I get $425.00 for a standard shoulder mount, any pose. You can view my work at www.alllongislandtaxidermy.com you will get it back at the end of summer, as I have about 120 heads ahead of you at this point. A $100 deposit is required at drop off...let me know if I can help you out... Rich Fins to Feathers