furman_ny

Agreed Larry.

Larry, I dont believe I said it would give you more bucks, it will give you healthier, thus larger bucks, which I am guessing is the whole point of ARs and QDM. Based on the deer numbers you gave, I will give you the normal scenario. The guy who owns that propert with 15 doe and 5 buck is a "trophy", not a "meat" hunter. He passes any small buck he sees, and more than likely does not shoot a mature buck, leaving 5 bucks. He lets does walk for most of season in hopes of bucks tracking them, end of season finally takes one for freezer, leaving 14. Say 7 or 8 of those get bred, next summer you got 15 more deer on your land, thus almost doubling the herd. Sure, some will disperse, but you get 3 or 4 landowners near each other doing same thing, you end up with way too many deer. Yes, they are amazing animals, and we usually dont have bad enough winters here to have mich of a die off, so they will find a way to survive, but they surely WON'T be anywhere near as healthy and big as they could be. Your right, keep herd at 80 percent of holding capacity would be ideal, fact is in most places the herd way exceeds healthy holding numbers, kind of getting to point of what I said earlier, until herd numbers are reduced greatly,ARs and QDM to produce trophy bucks is pretty much a joke. Thats not saying if you can go out and buy 1,000 acres and manage YOUR herd correctly, you surely could grow some large, healthy deer, but overall statewide its not happening. Most hunters do not have that kind of money to throw around, myself included.

Ego, good answer Doc. There are many here where I hunt, Im sure its same in other places, a few of which are good friends of mine, that echo what gjs said, basically looking down on anyone who would shoot a small buck. I cant speak for gjs and his meaning of that statement, but I know for fact these guys here think they are better hunters simply because they wont shoot smaller bucks, several of them have shot tons of little guys all through their hunting days, and now with the onset of QDM and ARs, people who do the same thing they have done are now losers, make any sense?? Fact is, many hunters simply have far far less chance of ever seeing, much less taking, a trophy deer. There are many reasons for that, money being the biggest one of course, family, friends, whatever it may be, some places just have big deer and some dont, if you can afford to buy, then manage your own land the more power to you, but dont put down the guy who can only access state land where 50 other guys are hunting too because he shoots a basket rack.Like several guys mentioned earlier, then you have the question of what small/big really is. I myself would enjoy the challenge of hunting just one particular large deer, whether you get him or not, but its not really possible in these parts, due to the amount of different landowners/small parcels, most all of which are posted. I do much scouting and preparation, and as I type right now, know the whereabouts of several large bucks, doesnt mean I will be able to hunt remotely close to them.

Pretty sure if it says none for 2nd chance, you can still try for there but would just be wasting your time, and I dont believe it gives you any better chance of being selected for same wmu in first draw. Need to look at map, hopefully you have other wmu to hunt in where there is a chance for 2 permits and go with that one on second choice. If you only hunt in one, and there is a none in 2nd column, cross your fingers on first draw.

Chase the cottontails with beagles from end of deer season to mid Feb., or until snow gets too deep for the dogs. Its quite a sight watching, and listening to a couple good beagles doing their thing on a crisp morning with a fresh dusting of snow.

Trick, I do understand why bag limits are less during migration time, which by the way we see very little of in these parts, Ive been hunting them for 25 years or so,and believe me, not a big fan of hunting in the heat either. We have a 3 part season here, and am gonna say only the middle part has any chance of taking migrators, late season here only 2 weeks long, done by early/mid January, when definitely all geese being hunted are these local problem birds. Just hoping they give hunters every chance to fix the problem before killin off a bunch of them.By the way, still confused about the lengthy Snow goose season we have here, spend about every day in the outdoors from Sept.-March, maybe see two flocks a year go over, never have even seen a snow while waterfowl hunting, maybe up by the Great Lakes more?

I realize they would focus on areas where hunting is not allowed, but I see it here every year, early season open Sept.1, people, myself included, take some of the birds where hunting is allowed, then most retreat to join other geese in those areas you speak of, here that is mostly golf courses and posted land where owners deny all requests to hunt them, BUT, as the season nears a close on Sept.25 here, the weather is starting to cool dramatically and you see many of those geese who have done nothing but loaf around on golf courses and shopping malls in the air headed to farmers crop fields, where most of the hunting is done. A field you set up in early season and had one flock of 10 honkers come into, suddenly has 100's or thousands of geese working it, but season closes on 25th, reopens in late October, when 90 percent, myself included, are pursuing other game. For sure, serious waterfowl guys are out there then, but the bag limits have been lowered by then and their are way less serious goose guys than deer guys for sure. Eventually those small pond and food areas on golf courses and parks freeze up, and many if not all of those same geese are forced to move, and forced to feed in crop fields, where they probably can be hunted in most places., most state parks do not grow corn fields to my knowledge. All I am saying is before they go to the extremes of killing them and throwing em in a hole, why not give hunters that pay money and enjoy hunting them, every chance to do the job for them, I have run across many a honker hunter, never saw one shoot a goose and just toss it in the weeds, which is what they basically are going to do. Your right, they are problem geese in public parks etc., but if they kill them off it will undoubtedly shorten all resident early seasons if not close them, and probably lessen bag limits across the board in all seasons. Heck, Id rather see a kid shooting them in July and taking them home to eat than knowing their just being buried somewhere, give the guys with the guns a chance first. We dont need any more reasons for people to stop hunting, you shorten seasons and cut bag limits, you can be sure less licenses and waterfowl stamps will be bought.

Buckstop, I totally agree with the first part of your post, AR's would hurt the cream of the crop younger deer while leaving the inferior ones alone to grow into inferior older deer, many who support these AR in my area leave the spike and forks alone, but dont hesitate to shoot a 2year old 8 point, because they can brag to buddies they got an 8 pointer----exactly the WRONG deer to shoot, but its bigger, so they think regs working. I too see and pass many deer each season, but not because I am an AR supporter, I like to hunt the whole season and tagging first buck I saw would put me on the sidelines way too early for my liking. The second part of your post about buck/doe ratio is, in part, why I dont think QDM will ever do any good, at least in my part of the state. I am fortunate enough to spend more time in the woods and just being outdoors than most will ever be, I have 3 small farms near me, and just last night drove around looking at deer, in 3 fields within a mile of road, saw 95 deer, 2 of which were 1 1/2 yr. old bucks, rest all doe and fawns, Im not ignorant enough to say ratio is 47 to 1, some of those fawns certainly were bucks, and undoubtedly some bucks were back in the woods, but so were some does. Ive read extensively on QDM and all reports say at worst you can have 3/1 doe to buck ratio, preferably lower. That being said, if herd balance was anywhere near where it needs to be optimal for bucks to reach full potential, just going on last night that would mean we either need to severely reduce doe populations, or produce enough food to feed about 300 deer per square mile---which is near impossible. I keep pretty good records of what I see, and get to talk to several other pretty serious hunters on regular basis, before, during and after seasons, no one in this area can tell me the ratio is better than 10/1, maybe worse. I just looked up DMP permits on DEC site, and less than 2 out of 3 hunters who apply here will receive a doe permit, and obviously nowhere near all of those will be filled, but ALL hunters will be carrying a buck tag. Now I'm not going to say I dont enjoy seeing alot of deer while hunting, I do, but until the number of does is greatly reduced, I do not see how AR and QDM will ever reach potential that will get me on board. I work in the taxidermy business and see many bucks from many areas of the state, DEC ages many of these at the shop, many hunters disappointed when they find out their 4 1/2 year old, 200 lb. buck only scores 130 inches, very nice deer no doubt, but nothing like they should be. Alot to do with genes I know, but also alot to do with lack of good nutrition, most of which gets chewed up by those doe that many AR supporters will NOT shoot. Enough for today, I enjoy the conversations on here, keep em coming.

Have kept a journal for past 8 years, in one of the journal types you get from sporting goods store, wish I had done it since I was 14. I keep, well, kind of detailed records of all hunts and trapping I do, which is many different species and many different locations. Is pretty nice when sitting around with hunting buddies and lookin back at previous hunts, many things that would be gone from memory forever can be re-lived just by looking back through these books. Weapons, weather, locations, all of which change over time can be remembered. I also take down deer wieghts and sizes from all deer taken by group I hunt with, quickly takes away the mine was bigger than yours argument years later. Recommend it to all, I know many dont have the time to hunt as much as they like, but it will still let you go back when you get a bit long in the tooth and recall many days and things you witnessed in the outdoors. I fill a whole book each year with hundreds of different sightings, misses, and harvests I made or was part of, wouldnt be able to remember 99 percent of them even the next season without one.

To anyone who may have some answers, I have been told by several people that they read somewhere in newspapers or hunting magazines that N.Y. state D.E.C. is proposing to cut the goose population by half or more, using baited nets to capture them and paying a landfill to euthanize and bury them. Any truth to this? I hunt geese some, not nearly as much as I used to, have a hard time finding a way to cook them to familys liking, but I take a few in early season and a few more in late season each year. I would take more if the best time to hunt them wasnt during all other open seasons, trule enjoy hunting them but rather chase deer, turkeys, or do some trapping. Anyways, this to me sounds like a total waste of money that the state supposedly doesnt have much of, why wouldnt they lengthen seasons, expand bag limits, take out the plugs, allow electronic calls, anything that would allow the guys who do hunt them hard to take more instead of just killing and burying them? Basically wasting them. They could even allow them to be hunted year round, would be better than wasting them needlessly in my opinion. Any replies welcome, thanks in advance.

Pass up a lot of small bucks but have no problems with other people shooting them, around these parts many have watched too much TV, think that letting a few small bucks go will have giant bucks hiding behind every tree the next season. The doe population here is way out of control, making herd numbers too high for most bucks to reach anything near full potential, and most leave the does alone cause its not cool to shoot them in their minds, until herd is reduced, especially with most all farmers out of business, leaving few crops for food, I wont be jumping on the QDM bandwagon and have no regrets takin a younger buck, mostly out of my appetite for the meat, and in many years for some reason beyond me, they do not give doe tags to many applicants here, as I see this year less than 2 out of 3 will receive a permit here, thus causing many more young bucks to take the place of does in lots of hunters freezers this season.

T/C Encore .50 cal., open Fire/Glow sites, works for me.

Hunt them every year, great eating and sporting fun with .22 L.R. or a .410, usually from Sept. 1 til the bow season opens. Great way to start young hunters, learn many of the needed skills to become an accomplished hunter, most people think its a joke to hunt them cause they see them runnin around while sitting 20 feet up in a treestand, start shooting at them and they not so dumb, stalking them with a .22 and taking a limit of them often is quite challenging, especially on pressured state forests.

I trap each year and there are 5 trappers that live within 2 miles of me that I know of, another 6 or 8 Im aware of within 25 miles of me, definitely not a thing of the past in these parts.

Nice bird, congrats on the hunt.

Break up a flock, sit tight awhile and they will start callin to each other, I kee kee and yelp every time I hear a bird call, try to be the most vocal and they will come. Works for me.

Birds with hens are tougher, pressured birds are often called to by the same sounds all the time, make some different noises they dont hear everyday and they will come.

Live in Dalton, N.Y., hunt mostly Allegany and Livingston counties.