Curmudgeon

I know it is clear where I stand. I love wildlife - deer, birds, herps, fish. I believe a lot of the satisfaction hunters get from hunting has to do with wildlife they are not pursuing. However, the first part of the excerpted quote above, you made up from whole cloth. You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with an idea in your head. It is good that airdale is burying his lead tainted scraps. Most people dump them. Some in the landfill, some in the woods. Since mine have no lead in them, I do not hesitate to put out scraps for the scavengers. The question I have is what happens to all the lead tainted trimmings from commercial butcher shops? A lot of that stuff goes to rendering plants for dog food. There is at least one state - with a serious eagle poisoning issue - that allows coyote hunters to use it as bait.

Airedale - You call it "tainted meat crap" The reality is, it happens, more with commercially processed meat than hunter processed meat. That has been documented. Consider how many people use commercial processors. Another significant factor is grinding meat. A single chunk of lead - as opposed to tiny fragments - that gets in a grinder, will smear on the blades and mix throughout the batch. Since many commercial processors grind multiple deer at once, a lot of meat that may have had no contamination will be contaminated. The last time a deer was shot with lead on this property, we processed the others first and ground that one last. The guy who shot it took all his ground meat home. I didn't want the granddaughters to eat any of it. Since lead tainted meat is a reality, how are you going to get all the commercial butchers and their minimum wage, seasonal employees to follow your instructions? Rob - This paper from 2015 mentions millions of waterfowl being affected in the period before the ban on lead for waterfowl - https://www.fws.gov/cno/es/CalCondor/PDF_files/Golden_Warner_Coffey%202015.pdf

Rob - No, I have no data how many die each year. My experience has been with individuals. I have a photo of 38 lead-killed bald eagles that were accumulated over a year in a FWS region. I do know that of 239 wild golden eagles that had blood drawn and tested (190 in the west, 49 in the east), 60% had blood-lead levels above what would be considered "lead poisoning" in a child. At the lower range - like a child - this level does not kill them. It does affect them and their ability to function as predators. At higher levels, they die directly from the lead, or from secondary causes due to the affects of the lead: exposure, starvation, predation, etc. If I had to guess, I would say that thousands of bald eagles are affected by lead each year. All may not die. One reason is it hard to get a good number is, a sickened raptor will go off and hide. They die out there on the landscape where they rot, are scavenged, or turn to dust. Few are considerate enough to die next to a road, or on a walking path. As populations, I do not think bald eagles, hawks ravens and crows are threatened, even though numbers of individuals die. The same cannot be said for golden eagles in the east, or condors in the west. These are small populations. A few individuals matter. Yes, and they use frangible lead bullets. I was told this is not a problem because they only take head shots. Hmmmmmmm. Shawnhu - I hope you reread what you wrote in the light of day. I get the feeling you aren't a fan of the poor. Let's ignore them for a moment. How can anyone make a choice when they do not have information? What if I - or one of your friends - invited you and your kids to my house and fed you toxic meat? Many people who are providing meat with lead in it, have no idea. You have a choice about trusting the safety of the food, however, you can not make a decision without information. There are no labels on pantry meat in NYS and most states. I did learn since I was last here that in addition to ND, IA and MN have warnings. MN scans every package. Isn't one definition of poverty "a lack of choices"? If you are poor and the do-gooders at the food pantry give you meat, do you assume it is safe? When you are having trouble keeping the family fed, questioning the food provided by bleeding heart liberals is unlikely.

It isn't only those who want safer bullets who have an agenda. You guys talk before you even know what you are talking about. Read Grouse's post #32 and Shawnhu's #34. You guys just jump to conclusions. You don't know. You don't ask. You just jump. There is a ton of information out there. Read. Minnesota is the other state that shut down its VDP after testing its meat. I know of no other states that do testing. They don't want to know. Try to get some data from the NYS VDP. Good luck with that. I have been told that if they test, it opens up a liability can of worms. Let's all stick our heads in the sand. ND now recommends that children 5 and under, and pregnant women, eat no wild game killed with lead. None! I was told this warning is now on the donated venison packages. What is blown out of proportion is your reactions.We are talking a few bucks for better performance, safer food and no scavenger fatalities. You are not willing to make wise choices but why do you object to giving people information to make better choices? You guys can eat all the lead you want. I don't care. You can even feed it to your kids. But, don't give it to poor people and pretend you are doing them a favor.

The meat CT scan is from a study by doctors. They got 100 packages of ground meat from the ND venison donation program. These were randomly selected from the stock of food pantries across the state. 59 of those 100 tested packages had lead in them. They shut down the program at the time, even though I believe it may be operating again with very strict protocols. Read it. I attached the paper. So, if only 59% is contaminated - not "all" - it doesn't count? Would you take a chance with your kid, or grandkid, or pregnant wife, on getting the 41% that did not contain lead. Personally, I do not like those odds. Since bullet fragments travel 15" or more from a bullet channel, how much meat "should have been cut away when it was butchered"? You know doctors. They have an agenda. They probably falsified this all like shawnhu suggests. ND Random Sampling.pdf

Short-eared owls - beautiful birds - are in trouble in the east. There used to be areas where we could find 6-10 where there are now none. There is one spot in southern Montgomery County where 1 or 2 have been present this winter. I may join DEC for their last survey of that area this week. It depends on how I feel. For those who have never seen a short-eared owl, you are missing a spectacular sight. You can find them hunting in sunlight late in the day. They are crepuscular and hunt low above the grass like harriers. During the summer - when days are long - they spend a lot of time hunting in daylight, especially those in the far north. I have watched them from the western states to Iceland. One of my most memorable wildlife experiences was watching a short-eared owl hunting in the Missouri Breaks. The bird lit up with the warm colors of the low summer sun. They roost in groups so you can have a handful hunting in one area before they disperse. I have seen them chase harriers, which are also crepuscular. I have seen harriers steal mice from them. A friend sent me this shot -

I grow Christmas trees. Would someone please pay me $15/hour? You want me to pay the hired help more than I get?

I have been paying $30-$40 for boxes of 20 Barnes TSX and Federal Trophy copper. I have bought a lot because I gave every member of our hunting group their first box. Since I shoot no more than a handful of copper bullets each season, I spend more on gas for the UTV so my octogenarian Dad can get in the woods each season then I do for premium ammo. The $4 per year extra cannot be a hardship for any normal hunter. Even those who live in dumps have a ATV. They can spend $4 a year to keep their kids' IQs above average. I know a lot of people who shoot copper in the field. I don't know one who shoots copper at the range, except for that final sighting in before deer season. The cost argument is specious. This photo is of meat from the ND Venison Donation Program put through a CT scanner. The white spots are lead. They were feeding this stuff to poor kids, not so different than Flint letting them drink lead tainted water. Do I have an agenda? Damn straight I do: Safe food. Safe gut piles. Fewer dead eagles. Better terminal performance. Do you have a choice? Yes you do: Buy cheap, toxic ammo. Feed lead to your kids. Poison scavengers. Or, forgo a coffee at Starbucks one day and use the money to buy copper bullets.

Most of the hunters I know who use monolithic bullets do so because of superior performance. One friend shot an elk 5 times in the shoulder with CoreLoks before killing it. He is a believer. Anyone using copper or copper alloy monolithic bullets is using a premium bullet with better terminal performance, and is protecting scavenging wildlife and their family's health. Standard copper jacketed bullets lose about 30-35% of their mass on contact with flesh. Lead fragments travel over 15" from the wound channel. Why would anyone who cares about wildlife and their family's health, and wants superior performance, not spend a couple of dollars more each year for all those benefits? There is no effort in NYS to outlaw lead bullets for hunting. Given the outrage over the Safe Act, it would be impossible even if someone wanted to try.

Cuomo - like a lot of downstaters - seems to have an unrealistic view of the rural economy. I've know at least 2 people who turned down upstate jobs when they were just out of college because the wages were lower than they expected. They stayed in Rockland County and Brooklyn and certainly had a lower standard of living then they would have had upstate making less.

Duvall and Michael Caine. What a hoot when the 2 got together for Secondhand Lions. Another favorite is Duvall in Assassination Tango. Oh, then there is Tender Mercies, and The Godfather, and, and, and...............................

A couple of decades ago, John Gorka wrote a song that just came up in rotation. The lyrics go like this: "Buy low, sell high You get rich and you still die Money talks, people jump Ask how high low-life Donald what's-his-name And who cares? I don't wanna know what his girlfriend doesn't wear It's a shame that the people at work Wanna hear about this kind of jerk These people aren't saints No, people just are They wanna feel like they count They wanna ride in their own car" I guess Gorka was wrong.

http://www.twincities.com/2016/02/21/nontoxic-ammo-doesnt-kill-twice-its-the-right-thing-to-do/ Quote from above: "Lead ammo zealots have tarnished the image of hunters as “America’s conservationists.” How? These people continue to use lead ammo after learning lead is causing secondary poisoning of wildlife. They cannot be considered conservationists if they continue to use lead. They say, “We don’t need to be concerned about the loss of eagles and other wildlife from lead poisoning because those losses don’t affect wildlife at a population level.” Next thing you know, deer poachers will claim that they should not be prosecuted because they are not killing enough deer to affect the state’s deer herd at a population level. Lead ammo proponents claim advocacy for nontoxic ammo is a conspiracy by anti-hunters. Wrong. Whether hunters are using copper bullets or nontoxic steel shotshells, they are still hunting, and they are still bagging game." Note: In the east, lead is very likely causing impacts of golden eagles at a population level.

I haven't seen one. A Madison County site photographed one. Someone on this forum posted a photo of one on a gut pile in December. A few made it to Delaware County in February, but roughies were scarce. Most years, I could walk a 1/4 mile from the house and find one. Not this winter. Too warm.

Only with lurkers.

Paula - Until we started doing this in 2010, no one knew there was a regular winter population of golden eagles in NYS. Not only are there goldens, some areas have high densities. "High" being relative for an Endangered Species. One site has had over 10 individuals feeding during the winter. A couple of sites had 2 individuals. If you get 1, you consider yourself lucky. Besides winter distribution, we get a demographic breakdown by age. From good photos we can accurately age most birds. We are learning about delectability. One of the reasons this population was unknown is that the birds are very hard to find. I organized counts the past 2 winters in Delaware County - skilled observers spending a good chunk of a day in a defined territory. One golden eagle was found for each 53 hours of observer time, AND, 1 of 3 of the birds each year were near a bait site. That is sort of cheating. So, if they hadn't picked up a bird there each year, the number of hours per bird would be 50% higher, or a bird for every 80 hours of observer time. We are learning a lot about habitat they prefer: for soaring/moving, roosting and foraging. We are learning that they find coyote hunter bait piles with ease. I hope those guys are checking their road kills for bullet holes. Data from our efforts killed a commercial wind project. Goldens for some reason get whacked by turbines well out of proportion to their numbers. On average, we have about 10 sites operating under my license in Delaware and Otsego Counties each winter. There have been project sites in Albany, Columbia, Orange, Oneida, Madsion, Chenango and Essex County. Yes, season matters. For adult goldens, winter is over. They are heading north. The bait is gone at most sites but with both eagle species migrating we are picking up birds we had not seen before. Both season and weather matter. The skunks, raccoon, possums only show up late in winter, or when it is very warm. This winter rough-legged hawks were almost non-existent. Reports are most never got south of Quebec. The bear early this very, warm winter was a first.

Some people have tried that. It only works if the animal is the same distance as the size reference. Sometimes you can get a sense from the bait but deer vary greatly in size. Bald Eagles can be seen regularly along the Willowemoc, Beaverkill and the Delaware along 17. Basically, anywhere between Livingston Manor and Deposit. Some of our tracked goldens hang out along 17. The river is not an attraction for them. The road kills are. One parked itself along the highway east of East Branch between 17 and the Beaverkill for 3 days back in January. I checked the site on a trip to the in-laws. It is a 100 yard wide strip of thick second growth. I'm sure few people saw the bird. Those that did would probably mistake it for a juvenile bald. Along those rivers, balds outnumber goldens at least 100 to 1. On the mountain tops, about 20 to 1. Here is a photo of the 4th and final bird we trapped and released this winter. She was a beautiful, 12 pound adult. One of the most beautiful animals I have ever seen. I like that photo a lot. I am going to change my avatar.

Good. Thanks.

I know that guy!

I was at a conference last summer with a couple of golden eagle biologists from Quebec. There is a lot of canid trapping up there - snares & leg hold - and eagles are caught. Enough it seems that they started an education campaign on how to place sets so as to prevent eagles. I have a hard copy of a document called "Eagles and Trapping: how to avoid incidental catches". It was produced by the Quebec trappers assn., their wildlife agency, and a couple of not-for-profits. I cannot find it on-line. What do you all know about this topic? Is it news? Is it covered in trapper education?

Welding equipment!

I have a small patch of old Scotch pine the deer love for thermal cover (abandoned Christmas trees). There are no lower branches. They move in and out of it during cold spells. It helps that it is in a low spot out of the wind. I cut down a few each year for them to eat for those times when it is hard to move about.

The lack of physical evidence, combined with the unreliability of observers makes it unlikely there are ever more than an occasional wanderer.

I don't know how big they are. Some people make comments on size in wildlife photos but I find it difficult. I can judge bulkiness. I can tell if one bird is big compared to another. Most of the cameras seem to exaggerate size - larger or smaller - based on distance. Close looks very big but move away and the size gets smaller faster than in real life.

I figured if the photo was now, they were just doing it for fun.