Curmudgeon

It would be in your interest to give her whatever time she needs next season. I sat in a spot with poor potential opening day so my friend could shoot her first deer. She shot the first 2 deer that she felt comfortable with. I didn't see a live deer until an hour before dark opening day. I consider my time seeing nothing well spent. I took that stand the second morning and killed a buck by 7:30. Make it successful for your girl friend. Think of it as an investment.

"If what you have to say is not better than silence, be silent."

A good read: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmichigansaf.org%2FTours%2F05Deer%2FUSFS-2008.pdf&ei=XJ9sVMeiOdiwyATC-YKABw&usg=AFQjCNFG4QFF1ig02nW48VOAIsWf_ESixw&sig2=5mKKTI-Ks9UGAvBcRmuxIQ&bvm=bv.80120444,d.aWw This is a presentation on deer management in state parks, specifially Letchworth but it applies. There are interesting graphics: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnysparks.com%2Fenvironment%2Fdocuments%2Fpresentations%2FDeerManagementStateParksTheLetchworthModel.pdf&ei=7aJsVNqmLYOxyQTQrYCwCQ&usg=AFQjCNGKGVdHaG4ijosu59iw03nVqnXweg&sig2=Q_rpdtToGzRNaqgTG3bb2Q&bvm=bv.80120444,d.aWw&cad=rja

We didn't discuss it.

I was speaking to one of my contacts in the Division of Wildlife et. al. yesterday about things unrelated to deer hunting. While we chatted, we compared our opening weekends. He is in an AR unit. I am not. I asked him if he was hearing anything within the agency about expanding mandatory ARs to 4F. He said he did not think we would be seeing any more mandatory ARs in the state. The impression he gave was that DEC currently considers mandatory ARs as only serving the interests of a minority of hunters.

You are correct. You know the park much better than I. However, it isn't what you see that matters. It is what you don't see. Someone should do a plant survey in Harriman. Try to find the 800+ species that botanist found in Storm King. Based on my reading, I am sure many of those species have been extirpated - by deer! This may have happened 30, 40 or 50 years ago. The impacts linger on. If the article I cited was not a fabrication, and if there no deer overpopulation now, it is because the forage is diminished - thus my earlier statement that "restoration" is likely necessary. Of course the barberry is closer to people. So is the buckthorn. So is the garlic mustard. So is the bush honeysuckle. People introduce it - intentionally or not. Disturbed ground is good for it. Deer encourage it by eating everything they can that competes with it. Every landowner who cares about habitat (for all wildlife) should be aggressively controlling invasive plants. No argument about human impacts. Maybe the new GM chestnuts will help reverse that disaster.

The alternate "Why People Hate Hunters" thread might have better been named "Why Antis Hate Hunters". We are talking apples and oranges.

USDA Animal Control was killing escaped pigs in Hancock last winter. I can't recall the name of the operation but from what I read in the Hancock paper, the same people had a place in Bethel. The escaped pigs did thousands of dollars worth of damage to a farmer I know down there.

I would work on something with you but won't have any time until after January 1. Send me a personal message and we'll exchange email addresses.

My young friend had a good weekend. After 5 years of hunting, I put her in my favorite stand. She filled her DMP and one of my DMAP tags opening morning. Over the weekend, we talked about the gun club she joined. She says the men there are condescending and treat her like a child. I am including a photo of her. She chooses not to have her face on the internet.

NYHD - I'm please to hear that there is more diversity in Harriman than I observed in my one day. However, you are wrong about the deer. I based my original comments on my knowledge of the dynamics of invasives and deer, and recollections of what I have read about the park in the past, I decided to do some research to see who was correct. Here is only one of a number of things that turned up in a quick google search. It quotes the Conservationist on conditions and damage several decades ago. The situation today cannot be separated from the impacts from that time. From the Finger Lakes Native Plant Society special newsletter on White-tailed Deer and the Impact on Native Plants 2009: The question is not, “is there a problem,” but “will New York’s forests and wetlands survive the onslaught of outrageously-inflated, starving deer herds that are already wreaking destruction in several regions at this moment?” Deer-foraging impact is particularly vexing on large tracts of state park land where the agencies responsible for land management have tried to implement sound practices, but were stopped by lobbying influences. This is not a new problem. Also Leopold clearly forewarned us in the Journal of Forestry in 1936, offering suggestions that have gone largely unheeded. In the New York context, I refer you to just one of many articles, an item in The Conservationist (September issue, 1982: Deer Management, Unit 53), in which Thomas Cobb explained the plight of deer in Harriman State Park, described to him at the at time by Ward Stone (DEC pathologist) as being in “the worst condition that I have ever seen in wild deer.” Since that article was published, the Palisades Interstate Park Commission tried to initiate a reasonable deer management program in Harriman State Park, but was stopped by public outcry from animal rights activists. The deer are in even worse shape now, of course, and park vegetation suffered significantly. After personally exploring hundreds of miles, seeking every habitat in Harriman State Park and surrounding areas, I can tell you first hand that the vegetation there has been devastated by deer. Nearly every green thing has been nipped, often to the ground. Orchids and other rare herbs have shown a steep decline since the 1940s, and serious forage damage is evident throughout, from dry ridge-tops to trampled wetlands. In nearby Storm King State Park, where limited hunting is allowed, forage damage is far less, and plant diversity amazingly high for the latitude (over 850 species in 1200 acres). A similar, healthier condition is found in the adjacent West Point Military Academy Reserve, where careful management, enclosure studies and monitoring activities are carried out on a regular basis by the Army Corps of Engineers. It amazes me that animal rights activists are willing to fight relentlessly to insure that their friends, the deer, die slow agonizing deaths, rather than being thinned

Sorry if I started another row. I seem to have a talent for that. My young friend and I were just sharing what was heard. I consider myself and the people who hunt my property to be among the most ethical of hunters - even during gun season. We only use non-lead ammo. My crew killed 7 deer with 7 bullets over the weekend. (Actually, 80 year old Dad shot 2 more times not realizing he had put the first one through the lungs. The deer was dead. Dad and that big doe just didn't know it yet. Bullets 2 and 3 would have also been fatal.) For years - in Cortland and now Otsego County - I have heard the iconic 5 shots, then another 5, then another 5, all the time being able to follow the deer's path through the landscape by the noise. I am as disturbed by this as any elitist bow hunter. I no longer bow hunt for a number of reasons even though some of my crew still do. I decry the behavior of bad hunters no matter what tools they use.

My 80 year old Dad killed 2 deer opening morning. Then he took a nap.

These guys were several hundred yards below us. The quote was heard by a young hunter I adopted (who I believe is getting an education on hunter behavior). She typed it into the computer last evening for you all after I logged in. She did not respond. If there is a silver lining, one of our crew killed a buck Sunday morning that was dragging a front leg. It was a long shot and he would not have taken on a healthy deer. He could only see the head and neck clearly. He broke its spine and tagged it. The elbow had been shattered. Maybe it was the same buck. It was very close to where the jerk shot 5X.

Chatter overheard on the 2-way radios on opening day: "I shot at that f**king buck 5 times and the bullets didn't hit the snow so I must have hit the deer. The buck kept running like a b**tard."

The first response to my inquiry was "dead horse". If so, people haven't tired of kicking it. My takeaway from this conversation is that mandatory ARs limit opportunity, and opportunity is critical for maintaining and recruiting hunters. Where those who can control enough land agree, voluntary ARs seem like a very positive thing.

I am really looking forward to some cold and maybe some snow on the ground. I send raptor migration forecasts a couple of hundred people that travel sometimes hundreds of miles to well known migration concentration points. It is an esoteric activity but everyone loves raptors, right? I expect Saturday to be one of the big Golden Eagle migration days of the year in New York. Anywhere east of Lake Ontario south into the Catskills could have eagles moving. While there are no deer, occasionally watch the sky, especially if you are at high elevation. Maybe you will see one.

Have any studies been done to determine how the mandatory ARs affect the number of bucks harvested AFTER several years? Is it as high as when every buck with a 3" antler was legal? Coonhunter - There are a lot of Amish in Edmeston. Have you seen any change in deer numbers that might be because of them? There was a separate thread on Amish. Some suggested they kill too many deer.

I've heard that some animal rights people object to bow hunting more than firearms. The rationale I heard is that more are wounded and not recovered. What Harriman needs is habitat restoration. A deer harvest at this point won't be nearly enough.

Every day hunting with my 80 year old Dad is a gift. His hands are bad and he can't field dress a deer but his eyes are good and boy can he still shoot. Sorry to those of you who don't have your old man hunting with you any more. We have 3 generations afield right now. I don't know how much longer that will last.

Even old curmudgeons like some stuff.

Glad it isn't only me.

I think I better calibrate the sundial on my tree stand.

Since I am a relative newcomer to this forum, forgive me if I am covering well worn territory. In my neighborhood, there is a large group of hunters that still do those traditional big drives - 20+ people at times. They hunt all around me, kill no does, and shoot every legal buck. The result is that most of the bucks here are small 18 month deer. On my cameras, I have over 10 photos of individual spikes and forkhorns, and only 2 larger deer. The larger deer are not that large. Out of pragmatism, we do not let legal bucks walk by. If we don't kill them the neighbors will. Some of the younger members of that crowd have urged them to not kill every buck. It seems to not have made a difference. If DEC puts an antler restriction in 4F - as they have done immediately to the south - it will probably put the neighbors out of business. What do people think of antler restrictions? Where it is the law, are there decent buck harvests after a few years?

I spoke to my sister in Vooreesville today - 4J. She reports no fewer deer than in the past - as many as 5 in the yard much of the time. She also had to stop last night for a big buck in the road.