Curmudgeon

Makes perfect sense. If you overgrazed cattle on the same pasture for 30 years, they would not thrive.

It is not as good because the habitat has been trashed by deer. I had time to kill a few years ago and spent some time in the park. The understory is limited to 2 species - mountain laurel and barberry. The deer have eaten everything palatable. Since predation and hunting didn't limit their numbers, they did it themselves. Unfortunately, their damage impacts all species that depend on the the understory, and prevents the regeneration of the forest.

It's a fisher. Fishers have had a remarkable range expansion helped in some part by people. WV introduced them to help control porcupine I think Martins are limited to only the Dacks. There is probably good habitat in the Catskills. Does anyone know if there are martin in the southern forest preserve? .

There must be coyotes there that are failing to help the problem. Why not sneak some wolves in. That should please the animal rights people.

One brother hunts my private property the first weekend. Sometimes he hunts the Pharsalia SF in Chenango County other weekends. He has still hunted most of a day and not seen another hunter. It's big. I suspect few people get far from the road there. I don't hunt state land - except the Forest Preserve and Wilderness Areas in the Dacks. I suspect there are some SFs that are overcrowded. I also think some people assume their limited experiences apply everywhere.

4J looks pretty urban/suburban. Could that matter?

Wait a couple of years and see how the apples are. If they are good, leave it. If they aren't, graft it.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes. Mustn't have hit the control C very well. I had just posted a link about apple trees on another thread. For some reason I can't get the link to come up in the message. Google Reconyx. It comes up first.

DEC tried to open it a generation ago. The animal rights folks down there had a fit. DEC backed off.

Drove to Cooperstown this morning. Lots of blood in the road in 2 places where DOT just cleaned up. From the bits and pieces all over, it looks like someone totaled their car on a big doe.

Most of these brands are cheap Chinese consumer electronics. I put at least 3 months of service on 10+ cameras each winter. We use Moultries because we get them at wholesale. If I get 2 years out of a camera, I think I did well. I do recommend using C cell batteries if you use the cameras in cold weather. AAs will need lithiums. If you want quality, buy Reconyx - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdspace.library.cornell.edu%2Fbitstream%2F1813%2F3074%2F2%2FTop%2520Working%2520and%2520Bridge%2520Grafting%2520Fruit%2520Trees.pdf&ei=8eBgVJf6NZKmyASF_YEQ&usg=AFQjCNEbqmMvwJvOFw-wVyKReRnBwVwZLw&sig2=sOvff2h_rXlmZZD0w7ffDA&bvm=bv.79189006,d.aWw They are not cheap at $5-600. When yours is stolen, you will be really ticked. I will stick to the cheap cameras expecting an occasional one to be stolen and the rest to break.

The problem with wild apples is that they are likely to be sour and hard. Just like us, wildlife prefers to eat soft and sweet fruit. Once wild apples are higher than the browse line, you can top work them. That is, graft improved varieties onto wild trees. Cleft grafting is easy. I taught myself and had over 80% success rate the first time I did it. I top work trees for wildlife and for home consumption. I have full size wild trees that have been bearing improved fruit for 30+ years. I taught myself using this brochure and the instructions on grafting wax: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdspace.library.cornell.edu%2Fbitstream%2F1813%2F3074%2F2%2FTop%2520Working%2520and%2520Bridge%2520Grafting%2520Fruit%2520Trees.pdf&ei=8eBgVJf6NZKmyASF_YEQ&usg=AFQjCNEbqmMvwJvOFw-wVyKReRnBwVwZLw&sig2=sOvff2h_rXlmZZD0w7ffDA&bvm=bv.79189006,d.aWw Grafting material (scions) is gathered in late winter. I do it when I prune. You store the scions in the fridge wrapped in a damp rag and sealed in a bag. Grafting is done just when the buds crack open and a bit of green is visible. Just find a tree you like, and take some cuttings of the previous year's growth in late February or March. In 3 years, you can replace the top of a mature tree. Getting a graft started on a small tree is relatively simple. Once it is has enough leaf area you can remove the branches of the original variety. This is done gradually.

If anyplace in NYS needs hunting, Harriman is it. My Mom In Law lives nearby. The place is an ecological disaster.

For those of you who do your own butchering, try taking your game cameras and putting one on the remains. Here are some samples. Some of these are sheep butchering remains and some are deer. The results are the same.

If my crew removes it from the gene pool, I'll send an age and sex update.

The posted sign means nothing. It is only legal protection. I have a Christmas tree farm and need to control hunting after Thanksgiving for liability reasons. He probably is sticking his tongue out.

We may have to throw this one back. He needs a 3" antler. It looks about 2 1/2 to me.

Slight change of subject. The OP mentioned Air France. I visit family in France regularly. Does anyone know if it is possible for Americans to hunt in the Pyrenees for boar, roe deer, izard, etc.? I can find a guided hunt by googling but nothing about someone wanting to go it alone.

Someone started a thread about hobbies. My hobby is wildlife behavior. I just want to ignore politics for a bit. I need to discuss something else. Most of you spend a lot of time watching wildlife, all kinds of wildlife. Please share your first hand experiences on the most puzzling or interesting wildlife behavior you have seen. Back when my ears worked well, I was somewhat expert at bird identification. DEC hired me as a contractor to survey birds in some wild areas of the Dacks. Below is a old listserve post from that period. Even If you have no interest in birds, read the italicized paragraphs. For those of you who are interested in the area, the land SW of Lake Lila is private - Nehasane and Brandreth Parks. I had permission to access both areas only during this time. 6/18/05 I spent from Tuesday to Friday working in my Atlas blocks southwest of Lake Lila and in another isolated block further west in the Five Ponds Wilderness. I could have done with less rain and bugs but there were some good moments and some I will never forget. Bird highlights included numerous Olive-sided Flycatchers, Yellow-bellied Flycatchers, Tennesee Warbler, Palm Warbler, confirmed breeding by Black-backed Woodpecker and Gray Jay, and Merlins at a nest. Unexpected birds in this area - unexpected by me at least - included the numerous broods of Canada Geese, several Red-tailed Hawks and a Veery. The first day I worked my way down the the tracks from Keepawa, out of my 3 contiguous blocks, to Beaver River Station. There, late in the day, I made boat arrangements for crossing the reservoir into the Five Ponds block the next morning. While I ate supper, I watched a female Merlin chasing dragonflies. This year the Merlins are nesting in a tall pine right next to a camp. On my way to the boat Wednesday morning, I bumped a crow off the ground. It flew too close to the Merlin nest. Two very aggressive Merlins were on it in a flash. As the three of them went out of sight around a pine, I heard the crow scream. It sounded as if talons pierced flesh. The rest of Wednesday was routine Atlas work in a difficult to access block. Thursday things got interesting. I was off early towards Little Rapids and back into my contiguous blocks. Along the reservoir I encountered a pair of Osprey, one of which circled over me calling repeatedly. This is a good sign. I've seen individuals there but it's been 30 years since I know of a successful nesting on the reservoir. Further on I found a Veery - the first ever for me in that area. It stopped singing when I neared and started with alarm calls. A Loon was sitting on eggs on the edge of the water. I dropped my pack where I had staged my mountain bike earlier and rode a logging road towards the big bog with the Palm Warblers. The moose and bear tracks in the road were very fresh. At the beginning of the skidder trail (from the salvaging of the '95 blowdown) that leads to the bog, I left the bike. I walked about 100 yards when I saw something running at me, fast. It was a large bear. I suspect a Doppler effect here - the bears running at you always seem larger than those that are running away, the faster the bear is running at you, the larger it appears - however, this was really a big one. It was probably the second largest Black Bear I've seen - out of about 30. This skidder trail is edged by slash and brush. It has some light brush growing in it. Getting off it wasn't an option. Running wasn't an option either. I can't run that fast. I can't even ride my bike that fast. I yelled and hooted loudly. About 60 yards out, the bear hesitated and slowed to a walk. I kept yelling. The bear stopped at about 50 yards and looked at me through a bush. It stood up and stared. Picture this, two bipeds staring at each other, one scrawny and yelling, the other massive, furry and confused. At moments like this, you lose your sense of time. I'm guessing the whole experience was probably 2 minutes but it felt much longer. Finally, the bear dropped and moved off the trail. I gave it several minutes and then passed where it had been, hollering the whole time. I've speculated about why the bear was running. It seemed curious, not afraid. The ranger I met at the Lake Lila parking area suggested it heard something that attracted it. Maybe it was the squeal of my wet bike brakes. As I entered the bog, I found a family of 4 Gray Jays. The 2 young were great. One received a lot of attention from a Blue-headed Vireo until it flew off to beg from its parents. Inside the bog things were much different than the last time. It was now very wet and hard to move around. In late May it was much drier and firmer. The large numbers of Palm Warblers were gone. Twice I heard singing from out in the bog but I did not bump any out like I had in large numbers 2 weeks earlier. A female Black-backed Woodpecker became the first of 2 I found in that block. I left the bog and headed back down the road on my bike. My bear experiences weren't over. After about a half mile, I met a small bear in the road. I hollered. It moved off to the left. Good. I started again on my bike. What I didn't know was that Momma Bear was hidden on the right shoulder. What a shock it was when a running bear ran across the road 2 bike lengths in front of me. This was my second close encounter with a bear in an hour and a half. Further down the road there's a screen of alder growing on the shoulder. I was moving along at a good clip when I spotted a huge dark hulking body through the vegetation. My immediate reaction was "not again," but it wasn't a bear this time. It was a bull moose up to its knees in the water. I got to watch it for about 5 minutes while it slowly moved out of sight. After these multiple encounters with megafauna I was confronted by an aggessive and disturbed Ruffed Grouse while babies flew off in every direction. It was a day to remember. I headed NE up the tracks into another block to camp for the night. Friday morning I went into the bog near Keepawa where I found several Palm Warblers earlier. This was more successful. Without much work, my pishing brought in an agitated Palm Warbler to join 2 Lincoln's Sparrows and a White-throated Sparrow that objected to my presence. I was wearing high rubber boots this day so I could get out further into Partlow Flow. There, from a comfortable distance, I watched a small bear foraging. Out in the flow a Black-backed Woodpecker was drumming. Identical drumming was coming from a bird I couldn't see in another direction. Shortly, the male I couldn't see flew about with a female. They interacted for a minute or two before the female disappeared into a tree. Late that morning I found a singing male Tennessee Warbler in a regenerating area at the edge of a mature forest. I'll go back in July.

That's a really tough question. Culvercreek raised the same issue in a different way I think bears repeating: "I think that tradition does frame what we think of as fair chase. If we look at how deer and other game are hunted in other states, that differ from our tradition, we likely have different views. Some may view the running of deer or bear with dogs as not fair chase but then turn around and enjoy a great afternoon running snowshoes with a few hounds. Is it really different because of the species? I find myself conflicted on the response." I wish someone else would take a stab at your question but here goes. This is strictly personal so I expect the snipers out there to attack again. Our feelings about what is ethical, fair-chase or sporting varies among us. For evidence just read the parallel discussion on this thread. There are our personal feelings. Then there is the issue Mike raises about the public impressions of hunters. As an individual hunter, species low on the food chain are my prey species: rabbits, deer, game birds. I see them through a different lens than omnivorous and predatory species. Carnivores and omnivores are only targets when they impact my household economy. When birds are flushed - by people or dogs - there is little stress. They do this all the time. A walk through the woods sets them off. Rabbits run the way they do as a survival strategy evolved before firearms. I do not believe it stresses them. I care about the individual animals I hunt and kill. I do not like the idea of inducing prolonged stress whether from dogs or snares. I believe coyotes and bears are badly stressed from long running by hounds. Putting myself in Joe public's shoes, birds count less than mammals - just as fish count less than birds. Joe finds a bear held up for hours in a snare offensive. He thinks running bears and coyotes with hounds for long periods is cruel. That baiting is unfair. Does Joe matter? There are those who don't care what the public thinks. They will do what they want if it is legal - or in some cases even illegal. This approach is short-sighted. When I tell non-hunters and anti-hunters that I hunt, I hope it accomplishes something good. I hope they see that they share some common values with a hunter. Sorry if you read this before editing. It decided to post itself before I was finished.

I do some public speaking that brings hunting into the discussion - 6 events this year including 2 conferences. Since these are often groups that contain many non-hunters, even some anti-hunters, I say right off that I am a hunter. That puts the antis on notice. As an invited guest who requires a payment or project donation to speak, I have never heard any anti-hunting comments. I provide little rationale for my actions in presentations - just a mention of the ecological effects of deer overpopulation and my personal agricultural impacts. If I felt a need to give more detail, I could get into my feelings about CAFOs and the meat industry - how buying your meat in plastic wrap is just a way to avoid taking responsibility for the killing of an animal. I do not know how to explain to a non-hunter the thrill of a grouse bursting out of the brush, or the great social/family bonding and cooperation that results in venison in the freezer. I see arguments here that we are hunting for the good of the species. It is true that uncontrolled deer will destroy their own habitat, however, as MIke says, it "is not relevant to every controversy surrounding hunting and does not resonate with everyone." Non-hunters often see things from the perspective of the individual animal not the species. Mike is also correct in saying "an array of methods.....can tarnish the public's image of hunting/hunters." Folks can object to being told how to hunt. However, this is something we all need to be concerned about. If hunters cannot agree on whether something is sporting, the general public is certainly going to have difficulty with it. We need to convince the general public that hunting is a respectable tradition. It is not only new hunters that cannot effectively articulate why they hunt. I can't - at least not well. And, I'm someone who regularly speaks to non-hunters about hunting. Hunters are a shrinking minority. They provide a vital service to society that cannot be met by other means. The public - especially those who are ecologically literate - can understand the impacts of too many deer: agricultural; car accidents; yard damage; habitat destruction; etc. They are harder to convince about other species.

Thanks Mike for the distinction between "sporting" and "fair chase". Well done.

I think many decisions that result in what is legal are determined by cultural ideas of what is "fair chase". Culvercreek makes a good point about separating the complexity of wildlife control and fair chase. Fair chase makes scoring more difficult. Wildlife overpopulation requires a harvest. However, much of our hunting is not about controlling populations e.g. turkeys, grouse, even coyotes. Fair chase does matter. Thank you VJP and Culvercreek for your thoughtful comments. I hope Doewhacker reads them. They are a good model.

Coyote - Nice screen name. Hope no one shoots you.

How presumptuous you are Doewhacker. You don't know me. Maybe you should read some of my posts on species, habitat, deer overpopulation. I'm all about habitat and forest health. We all have opinions. We all contribute to the discussion. I don't make management decisions. I discuss things. If no one agrees with me, that's okay. I am more surprised when they do then when they don't