Curmudgeon

VJP - Actually, we don't disagree on much - certainly not the NJ bear and deer situation. Not on emotional ballot issues. My understanding of the ME thing - aside from my objections to the electorate making decisions - is that the ballot initiative did not apply to nuisance bears. That said, the passage or defeat was about 2 things: "elimination of all sport hunting" and "fair chase". It might have been crafted to appeal to both groups. There is wildlife out of control, and there is recreational hunting. For recreational hunting and fishing "fair chase" matters to me. Can we set aside the former and define the latter?

"My type"? I thought I was unique.

"Fair Chase" seems to be a relatively new construct that is evolving over time. When hunting was necessary to eat, everything and anything was fair. Filling the stomach and feeding the kids was the only priority. The idea of hunting and fishing as "sport" is a direct result of people having leisure time. You all may not like someone telling you how you can and can't hunt, but someone is. Not little, old, "arrogant" me. It's NYSDEC here, and other state agencies elsewhere. I have to think that cultural mores affect their decisions on what is and is not "fair chase." How else would they decide? In the 21st century, would someone please define "fair chase" for me. Please include a clear rationale why different practices are acceptable for some but not other species. I'm having trouble with the too many bears but they are hard to find argument. Just to be clear on the electorate making wildlife management decisions, it has been a disaster in CA re cougars.

From DEC's regs: It is unlawful to hunt big game with: A firearm or bow aided by any artificial light or a laser that projects a beam toward the target. An autoloading firearm with a capacity of more than 6 shells (one which requires that the trigger be pulled separately for each shot), except an autoloading pistol with a barrel length of less than 8 inches. A firearm using rimfire ammunition. A shotgun of less than 20 gauge or any shotgun loaded with shells other than those carrying a single projectile. A bow with a draw weight of 35 lbs or less. Arrows with barbed broadheads; arrowheads less than 7/8 inches at the widest point or with less than 2 sharp cutting edges. Dogs. Aircraft of any kind. Bait We all make mistakes.

So, if snares, baiting and hounds are "fair chase" for bears, do you think they would be "fair chase" for deer? Turkey?

While I don't like the electorate making management decisions - I think biologists should do that - the ME bear hunting practices are offensive to the idea of "fair chase".

I believe you do want an intelligent, mature discussion. However, hunter's opinions of coyotes cover a range that goes off into extremes at both ends. There are the visceral haters. There are the fascinated admirers. There are those who have had problems with destruction of animals they own. There are those that see them as a source of income. There are hunters who find any competition unacceptable. There are those who think that science should be our guide. There are those like me who see many coyotes and too many deer. If I hope to accomplish something, it is to get the haters to ask themselves why. There is also a fear factor that is not well supported. Personally, I have been unnerved by the howling of a nearby pack while out in twilight in a wilderness area. I have had to whistle at a coyote 25 yards out to stop it from coming directly to me while I was sitting with my rifle across my lap. (I did not shoot it). My wife goes for a long walk every morning on our property - often in the dark. Before the old-dog died, whenever coyotes were howling nearby the dog ran home. My 4' 9 " wife just continued her walks. She has never let the coyotes stop her. She says she is much more afraid of any unknown dogs (domestic). You cannot have a coyote discussion without an emotional component. It is impossible.

nyantler is well informed. Too many? For who? The goat farmer? The suburban cat owner who lost a pet? The deer hunter? From a coyotes perspective, how many is too many people? Too many coyotes - outside of impacts to domestic animals - is when the habitat cannot support the population. When competition with other coyotes, or malnutrition related health problems, actually lowers the population. Good habitat can support good game levels and coyotes. Those who want an unnatural number of game animals are thinking short-term. Too many deer actually destroy their own habitat. Has anyone been to Harriman SP? Talk about a place that needs more coyotes, hunters, sharpshooters, something.......

Barnes 130 TSX - devastating and lead-free!

My brother, former college linebacker, is now hunting with a .243 after retinal surgery. His doc advised against any large caliber recoil.

As per this morning's news, Jose Canseco is recovering from shooting himself in the finger while cleaning "his gun". This reminds me of my favorite "gun cleaning" story. My wife is a teacher. A couple of years ago a student confided in her that his father had been shot in the humerus by his brother while they were jacking deer. The .22 LR, at close range destroyed the bone. Having been shot in the back of his arm, they ditched the rifle, went to the ER, and claimed it was a late night "gun cleaning" accident. The cops were called but there was no evidence besides the victim's statement. I saw the father/"victim" some time later. His arm was tightly wrapped around his body. He told me the same "gun cleaning" account. It was his story and he was sticking to it. Sometimes justice is served.

As I live out my reclusive rural existence, one thing I find really refreshing about this forum is to see the well informed and intelligent comments from the NY metro area. It belies many of the rural stereotypes about urban hunters. One thing I know for sure, many rural residents leave much to be desired in their hunting ethics, skills and methods.

nyantler's comments are supported by science. That said, Fourseasons seems to be unable to separate predation of his personal property (his fenced deer) from predation of wild animals on his land. I have sheep. Fortunately, I have had no coyote problems in Otsego County, or in Cortland County before that - a period of 40 years. They walk through the pastures (39" fences). My brother has had no coyote problems with his sheep in Chenango County during 25 years. Protecting livestock is justifiable. However, wild deer are not owned by the property owner. You cannot call them yours until you take it into possession. Advice I received many years ago: if you have livestock and no problems with coyotes, do not kill them. Diet is learned. If your local coyotes do not kill sheep (or goats, etc.) you do not want to open up the territory to new animals by killing your dominant animals. You may get coyotes that do kill livestock. Fourseasons seems so consumed by rage that he is unable to act in his self interest. Stable coyote families have larger territories. Of all the coyote killed deer I have found - and during a couple of winters it was considerable - all have been young of the year. Never an adult. Even though conditions sometimes favor the coyotes, I have too many deer. I counted 14 fawns on a walk a month ago. I have many turkeys. Yesterday the woods looked like someone has been out there with a rake. Every time I check the cameras I get groups of turkeys. If you have good habitat, the coyotes cannot destroy your game populations. Why is it that people are so selfish that they cannot share? Like everyone else, the coyotes are just trying to make a living. Fourseasons - You are creating a coyote "sink" in a place where you admit you have an unlimited coyote "source". You are wasting your time and energy. You are not improving your situation re wild deer. And, if for no other reason than your family, please consider your anger issues and how they may affect your health. They seem a source of entertainment for a group of people on this forum.

Our age differences make for different cultural references. At least one person didn't get the He-Man Coyote Haters Club reference. Here is a you tube link for a 1937 meeting of the He Man Woman Haters Club - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwBIC8JTQMMQ&ei=AxFQVKrBM5CcygSazoDgDg&usg=AFQjCNFCw6-QsfDT5ug5KKCLPRyqMedTsg&sig2=cXcbkdLqqx20-E9sLbebEw&bvm=bv.78597519,d.aWw

Thanks Biz-R-OWorld.

I feel like I joined the He-Man Coyote Haters Club.

Now that is FUNNY!

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/9359.html http://www.easterncoyoteresearch.com/livingwithcoyotes/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

When I was on the citizen task force for 4F a couple of years ago, it became clear that there were spots in the unit that had low deer numbers. Overall, the unit has too many deer. Lower numbers were in the SW and eastern corners. We discussed with DEC the possibility of splitting the unit because of its large size and lack of uniformity. The areas within a mile of the state forests also had low numbers of deer. I think the biggest problem with deer overpopulation is the amount of posted land. Deer know where it is safe during the season. Also, there is still a reluctance on the part of some to shoot does. I think people are too quick to blame coyotes for low deer numbers. Coyotes are opportunistic. In the dacks they are probably a big factor. Having spent many days XC sking in 4F, I have found winter coyote kills to be common only under very specific conditions. When conditions are perfect - the crust holds up the coyotes but not the deer - the deer get hammered. I've seen these conditions twice in the past 15 years. While they obviously take some fawns, I counted 14 on an evening walk around the property a month ago. Coyotes are everywhere in the state, even NYC. I cannot subscribe the the anti-coyote dogma.

I know it isn't legal but I was in a similar situation once and took my own dog out. She found the deer quick. She was in really thick stuff where she couldn't be seen.

As I have said before, the coyotes in 4F (Otsego County) are incompetent. No matter how many are out there, they are ineffective at deer population control.

The Amish around here don't hate guns. Seriously, would anyone "selling" a gun to a family member, would you go somewhere to do the background check?

Believe what you will. If I want to provoke people, I can find much better stuff - like coyotes, lead-free ammo and Astorino being pro-fracking. The guy I met last week was the first person I ever spoke to who had hunted deer with buckshot. The OP is getting an education.

One of the Amish here complained that DMAPS were easier to get when they lived in the Finger Lakes region. Apparently, R4 is tougher.

It seems to violate due process.