wolc123

Do you support full-inclusion of the crossbow in archery season ?

I agree that the archery course should be required to hunt with a crossbow. It sounds like there was some type of compromise deal 5 years ago, with an organized anti-crossbow group, that forced them to be categorized as muzzleloaders in order to get them in for the last 14 days of archery season in the southern zone and the last (3) in the northern zone. Right now, it seems like most NY crossbow hunters still are or were bowhunters previously, with only a few taking it up who only gun-hunted before. The requirement of the archery course should make the percentage of crossbow hunters, who were not bowhunters previously, even less. The 40 year Ohio stats provide a very good indication that many will continue to use vertical bows, even after full-inclusion of the crossbow occurs.

Times have changed and deer have adapted. Guns alone are no longer getting it done in many DMU's, including the one where I live. If you do not live in a zone that is grossly overpopulated, then you may have no comprehension of this. Climate change has also contributed to the overpopulation issue. It has been more than (3) years, since we have had frost in the ground deeper than 2", and there has not been more than 2 weekends, the last three winters, for the snow to be deep enough for decent snowmobiling. They are practically giving the used ones away around here now. Other states (such as Ohio), have accomplished better control of their deer herds, and a higher degree of hunter satisfaction, by allowing full-inclusion of the crossbow during archery season. The guns alone have fell short in NY, primarily due to to their noise, and an opportunity for archery season to contribute has been squandered by keeping crossbows out. A one-two punch of crossbows/compounds, then guns could likely get it done here just like it did in Ohio. There is no evidence to prove that it could not, while there are many other states which have proved that it could. Based on the increasing margin of support for full-inclusion that this poll is showing, it probably will not be too much longer before NY follows suit. I will go out on a limb and predict that it will happen by October 1, 2019. When do you think it will happen ? All we have now, is a small group of "elitists" holding us back. I don't see how they can hold on much longer, especially if we keep this poll right on top for all to see. We have them on the ropes now and it is time to pummel them into submission. We only need (4) more votes to get to 100.

Allowing those "superior weapons" in from the start of archery season, would make that season a more effective tool for the DEC, when it comes to controlling deer numbers. You need only look at the Ohio harvest numbers, that someone posted a few pages back, to see proof of that. Note how the archery totals equal or surpass the gun totals. The crossbow plays a HUGE part in that. Delaying the deployment of the crossbow until November, as has been the case for (4) years in NY, just pisses away most of the advantage it could provide when it comes to controlling deer numbers. I hear repeated arguments of "just letting guns in from the start", but that would also piss away the advantage that having a "silent" season, followed by a "loud" one. It takes deer some time to react to the pressure from the "silent killers". You really only get one good day when the guns come in. The one-two punch that archery (with crossbows allowed), followed by guns a month later, promises better results than one (loud) punch. To those who fear that the crossbow would collapse deer numbers, wiping them out like the bisons and carrier pigeons, I say, have no fear. It is a simple matter of issuing less DMP permits, when and if the numbers need to be increased. Look at the data from other states with full inclusion (most of which supposedly rank higher than NY in hunter satisfaction) to relieve your fears. I don't believe that the sky fell in any one of them. With a dwindling number of hunters, it makes sense to give those who remain a more efficient tool, and let them use it WHEN it could do the most good. p.s, You are doing a little better on your spelling now Storm, are you starting to proofread and use the edit feature as I suggested ?

I know some folks who can do that with a compound, but there is certainly more strength, and more time required to get proficient. The crossbow puts that same accuracy into the hands of those with less strength and less "free-time". That should cut down on wounded and un-recovered deer. The two weapons have comparable range, but the crossbow is more likely to put the bolt on the hair it was aimed at. To me, that is another HUGE reason to let it in. I am ok with traditional bows getting in a couple weeks earlier, because very few people these days have the gumption to get good with such weapons. The number of those who do would probably not be enough to force the deer nocturnal like all the guys with compounds do now. Giving them an early start advantage would push a few more folks towards "real" traditional archery. It would also be a special benefit for guys like Moog, who deserve it due to their selfless support of full-inclusion.

I would be ok with the airbow only if it was at least 17" wide and propelled and arrow at less than 300 fps. No dice otherwise. Onward to 20 pages and over 100 voters. Come on, we can do it. Help us keep the truth of overwhelming NY hunter support of full-inclusion right up top for all to see.

I would be ok with the two weeks traditional but not the two weeks compound. That should be in the same class as the crossbow since they are both "high-tech" and have comparable range and accuracy. The biggest problem I have with this whole debate is the "compound-only" dudes selfishly trying to keep crossbows out, so they can have more "big-bucks" for themselves. I want more time because I want to be able to use the crossbow to help control the deer population in the grossly overpopulated zone where I live (9F). Right now, you can regularly see herds of 20 - 60 deer out in the fields. I have to dodge them frequently with my car on the drive to and from work. The DEC has been giving out lots DMP tags here for many years, but very few are filled because these deer go nocturnal soon after detecting a little hunting pressure. If I could get out there starting on October 1, I think I would have little trouble filling all (5) of my antlerless tags. In (4) seasons with the crossbow, I have not struggled to fill my buck tags, but have yet to have a single antlerless deer walk within my 50 yards range. I do not want this for selfish reasons. In fact, I have probably benefited by the current restrictions. I process my own deer and I would rather kill and process bucks than does. Does always have a lot more fat to trim, and take me much longer to process for that reason. Leaving this area infested with does, no doubt makes it easier to kill bucks here, after the rut kicks in and the crossbows are allowed. It is selfish of me not to kill does, because that is the only way to get the deer numbers under control. One look into the fields at dusk can show anyone that it is out of control here right now. You are right, I am ok with the way things are right now. It is not all about me though. I would like the crossbow to be legal when I could use it to help others, including mothers driving their kids back and forth to school, homeowners trying to grow gardens and landscaping around their houses, farmers trying to raise sweetcorn and pumpkins, and forest managers. I see the crossbow as the perfect weapon to do this job for two reasons: It is extremely accurate at close range, which minimizes the chances of wounding and not recovering the deer. It is also silent, which makes it easier to fill multiple tags before other deer in the area are alerted to what is going on. All other "legal" weapon types currently fall short in one or both of those areas. Allowing such an effective weapon to be used at the time when it could do the most good (before the "stink" of other hunters has turned the deer nocturnal), would greatly enhance the ability of the NY state DEC to mange the deer population. Do you not wish to see them succeed ? p.s, here is a tip for you which I hope you will find helpful and not offensive: consider proof reading your posts and use the "edit" feature if necessary. Others have pointed out, and I have also noted an unusual number of spelling errors, etc in your posts. Do you use a "kindle" (whatever that is) ? One other semi-departed forum member struggled mightily with one of those for a long time.

How do you feel about the elimination of draw weight and minimum width restrictions, which I hear is also included in the current bill ? I would prefer that they be left in. I have done ok with a crossbow, which meets the current restrictions, and I am happy with a maximum range of about 50 yards. I definitely would not shoot further than that today, with my current equipment, because I learned that it does not provide enough penetration beyond that. I bought a laser range finder 3 years ago, and I now have all my stands and blinds flagged out to 50 yards, to make sure of that. I think having those restrictions prevents "too much" escalation of technology. By that, I mean that it helps keep "archery hunting" a short range game. That is a good thing, because there is a lot more to be learned from the sport by getting closer to the deer. A selfish reason that I have, for leaving those restrictions in, is that they put limits on any temptation for me to spend money on upgrading my current equipment. I really don't want to do that, because it has been 100% successful at putting deer down within 40 yards. That even includes the first one, where I underestimated the yardage and only had 8" of penetration at 59 yards.

Thanks, and be careful out there.

Would you be open to any compromise on that ? Say for example, letting youngsters 12-15 and other folks over 50 or having physical disabilities use them throughout archery season, coupled with a requirement for the archery course to use one. Also, as a moderator, do you feel any need to represent the views of the membership here who are showing an increasing level of support for full-inclusion? This poll is now showing it favored by closer to a 3:1 margin. The ONLY other poll that appeared here over a year ago (and vaporized mysteriously) was showing support by 2:1 when it went away. Do you have any idea what happened to that poll or why it went away ? I say it is because someone could not handle the truth. This poll is showing that truth very clearly now : MOST HUNTERS SUPPORT FULL INCLUSION.

That might be an indication that if most of the PA archery hunters have not made the change yet like Reeltime says, it will not be too long before crossbows are in the majority. But then again, it could also mean that the crossbows are not selling well, but the compounds are flying off the shelves. Irregardless, onward towards page 18 and 3:1 in favor of full inclusion.

Do you support full inclusion ? It looks like that side picked up another vote since your last post. Thank you if that was yours. If we can get another page or two of this "popcorn diareha" it may open up to 3:1 in favor of full inclusion. As far as the "most switching to crossbows", I am not sure about PA, and may have been wrong in my assumption. I submit to your greater knowledge there as an ex-resident. Someone posted the Ohio stats a few pages back on this thread when the poll was running a little closer to 2:1 in favor of full inclusion. Thanks in advance for your reply which will bring the truth of the wide margin of support for full inclusion back up to the top for all to see.

"Next time use your finger on your trigger instead of your cellphone after you knock a deer down with your first shot."

Records from Ohio and PA have shown that most have indeed switched to the crossbow, because it is marginally more efficient and effective overall. There are lots of situations where the compound bow comes out on top however. That is why, even after 40 years, there is still significant usage of them in Ohio. Stalking thru a corn field would be easier with a compound for example, or almost any still-hunting thru and around cover. Even hunting from a tree-stand, around branches where there is not a rest, seems easier with a compound. That takes away any valid reason to let the compound in before the crossbow. The valid reason for letting the traditional equipment (longbows & recurves) in earlier is that there is few or any situations where they are more efficient or effective, but many folks (natural born fighters) who enjoy the challenge. Those of us who are natural born killers would never have a use for such things, because we always seek to minimize challenge that impedes a kill. New fighters are born every day though, so there will always be folks wanting to use traditional equipment. I feel that those willing to put in the added time and effort to become skilled with a traditional bow deserve an earlier shot at the deer. That certainly does not apply to the compound bow however. I don't mind the current mechanical restrictions on crossbows in NY. I have done ok with an entry-level model. It did not cost much but has put all three bucks that I shot at with it down inside of 40 yards, after they took the bolt. I would be ok with airbows in gun season but not in archery.

It looks like he is starting to loose some fur, another sure sign of spring. It is about time.

The most effective thing would be an underground fence and a dog inside with a shock-collar. Some of the farmers around me use propane powered devices that sound like gun shots with some limited success.

In the southern zone, I would settle for a compromise that catetegorizes compound vertical bows and crossbows the same (high-tech), with the season for them starting October 15 and running until opening of gun season. October 1 thru October 14 would be "traditional" (or low-tech), when only longbows and recurves would be allowed, for archers over 16 but under 50 years old. I would like to see the compounds and crossbows be legal during that first two weeks for hunters under 16 or over 50 years old, or for others with some physical disability. In the Northern zone, I would like to see those dates shifted forward 1 month with the same arrangement (low-tech starts September 1). That is a compromise that I could definitely live with. Such an arrangement would result in vastly increased participation in "traditional" low-tech archery, while also not impeding the access of beginners and older hunters the access to more efficient weapons (compounds and crossbows), which would offer them a greater chance for "fresh" or "continuing" success. I really do appreciate the selflessness of some of the traditional archers who have welcomed "full-inclusion" of the crossbow for all, with no strings attached. I have very little appreciation for the compound-only crowd who selfishly fight to keep the crossbow out of their "private time".

No muscles are needed to hold a crossbow at full draw, nor are any required to hold it up, if you use a rest. An accurate shot is insured by placing the crosshairs on the correct hair when you pull the trigger (aim small miss small).

I always follow clover with corn, because it uses the nitrogen that has been stored up in the soil by the clover to make a decent. Purple top turnips would also utilize that nitrogen and would be be my second choice. The turnips would be my first choice, if you have a lot of coons, which would destroy a corn plot of that size by the end of September.

I think the effectiveness of a forum like this gets magnified because people are getting lazier every day. If they can look something up quick on their smart phone it beats the heck out of knocking on doors or making phone calls. I would not be so quick to discount it's effectiveness. Hopefully we will see how it works by October 1 2019. I also agree that the early season is not all it's cracked up to be, however I am quite certain that I could finally fill an antlerless tag or two (hopefully including a prized button buck) with my crossbow if I could get out there on October 1 with it. Killing the horned ones has not been a problem for me (the rut works wonders there).

Does that mean the full-inclusion bill that was in the budget has passed ?

I think it might. It is very important that the truth gets out to both the DEC and the NY politicians, that the overwhelming majority of NY hunters support full inclusion. This forum gives them a good "fair-and-balanced" look at the current status of the debate. You know it is now pretty well balanced because one of the moderators supports full inclusion while the other does not. I think they both may have been opposed during the only previous poll, over a year ago, and that just might be why it disappeared and no one can produce any record of it now. So much for "conspiracy theories", at least this one is hanging on and showing well above 2:1 in favor now. The other one got snuffed out right about the time it reached 2:1. Keep up the good work and thanks for making this excellent poll. p.s: Whats up Doc ?

I had seen a couple about a month earlier, on other side of the barn, when we had some warmer weather. They were quick and I was unarmed. This was the only one that I have ever seen out when the temperature was below freezing. I would have liked to have used my crossbow, but that was not handy, and I had removed the battery from the red/green dot sight for storage. I traded away my old woodchuck gun last summer (22/250). With that, I always aimed for center of mass and it rarely left even a mark on the outside of the chucks at short range. I suppose that it turned their insides to jello because they never even twitched after taking the hits. This one did not twitch either, with the .22 LR Remington Yellow Jacket HP centered on the side of the head.

My own largest-antlered buck had a fresher injury, similar to those. Someone had shot a hoof off, a day or two before, and it was hanging by a thin strip of hide. My own first shot struck high on the opposite diagonal front leg, breaking the bone and taking it completely out of commission. He made it into the brush before I could get another 16 gauge slug into him. These days he might have got away, but I was a little bit faster 30 years ago. The two bum legs really slowed him down. I will never forget the sight of those wide, light-colored antlers thrashing up and down thru the low brush. Loosing one leg barely slows them down, but loosing one and a quarter makes them catchable. Based on this experience, my guess is that the OP buck's hoofs were severed from an almost-perfectly broadside shotgun slug or large caliber rifle bullet (a good bone-busting caliber). I am pretty sure that the buck I described would have have done ok on his back stump, had I not intervened before he learned how to use it properly. One thing is for sure, If he did not have that prior injury, we would have eaten a lot more chicken that year, and my wife would have room for a few more pictures on the wall today.

When and if full-inclusion of the crossbow happens in NY, will you continue to live and hunt here ? Thanks to your valiant efforts, and those of the 23 others who have voted against it at this point of this poll, it might be a while before you need to worry about making that choice. If you ever lost the physical ability to draw and hold a vertical bow, would you consider taking up a crossbow if it would add some more years to your archery deer hunting, or would you rather die before giving in to "the dark side" ? Personally, I am somewhat content with the two weeks that we get now in the SZ, and the additional 3 days (with no guns) up in the NZ, about a month earlier. If those days ran concurrent, and did not include all of the rut in the SZ, I would be much less so. It looks like the other 62 folks who have voted for full-inclusion want it pretty bad, so you certainly have your work cut out for you. Keep up the fight and you may be a real hero to your kind someday, just like Stonewall Jackson is to the South. Personally, I don't believe either of your causes is a righteous one, but you certainly believe in yours just like he believed in his.