My deer are starving...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Hooper drives the boat, Chief....

Mean's nothing!!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Off course deer do starve to death because of lack of food, but do you know that supplemental feeding can cause them to starve down to skin and bones? The Pope here feels its needed to invalidate my earlier comments with sarcastic reference to "upset tummies" or however he put it, but what actually happens is the animal, even though it is eating, is not absorbing nutrients and starves. This isn't something that is up for debate, the mechanism is well understood...  You should make your friend aware of that so that he doesn't start feeding them because of the dead ones he found or if he already has been feeding deer or wildlife in general, hopefully will stop and remove the remaining food... 

 

CWD also causes deer to "waste" down to skin and bones, by the way.

So let's see..We have a bunch of deer standing in a woodlot dropping dead because there is no food.  Fact is, Those deer will die with no food. You throw them some alfalfa bales and some of those deer will survive,if not all of them. I have no clue where you took your deer class but i will tell you for a fact that in the middle of winter the bacteria in a deer's gut will break down the alfalfa stems and turn that in life sustaining food. No different than an oak,spruce or anything else they eat in winter.  The only place that corn will kill a deer is in the middle of the mountains where a deer has never ate corn before and thats all it ate or if you stuck a deer somewhere and the only food it had to eat was straight corn.  You may want to stop reading and live in the real world!    You think what you want and those oh so many of us that know will continue to watch those deer lay in their beds chewing their cuds as they watch their next snack of corn and alfalfa get laid out on the snow in front of them!!

Cant be CWD, Your DEC tests for that remember.

 

 

Funny if you do some research you will see where states of Minn and Wisc are putting emergency deer feeding programs in place as we speak.  So by your way of thinking, these states biologist's are not only letting but in some cases the states are paying for these people and hunters that care about the deer, KILL the deer by allowing these deer to be fed?  Right.....

 

Edited February 18, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails

[Geno C]

was just reading this...

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/outdoors/2014/02/17/minnesota-deer-feeding-update-mdha-rallies-volunteers/

[mike rossi]

You are correct I was not aware of what was going on in Minnesota. But I just looked it up and here is what it sounds like to me,  based on what I read, where I read it, and - where I did not read it...

 

I see NOTHING about that on Minnesota DNR's website, despite a few news articles about it found by a google search. Then I read the news articles... Apparently the Minnesota state legislature made a law from  a quote "agreement" between the DNR and organized deer hunters to temporarily suspend feeding bans when the WSI or weather severity index reaches a certain point. That doesn't mean the Minn. DNR necessarily  endorses this and because they are not bragging about in on their website, it is a good bet they are doing this reluctantly to appease the political pressure or comply with a law they may not agree with. The news articles also indicate the DNR is already saying they want to  revisit this with the deer hunters...

 

Your tone sounds like you are implying that this action in Minnesota is based on science or best management practices and should be a  precedent for  360 degree reversal of policy in NY and across the US... However, the tone of the news articles indicates it is socio-political, not scientific. The fact MDNR is not promoting it on their own website reinforces the tone of the newspaper rather than yours...

[shawnhu]

We dont have to worry to much about our overworked DEC staff worrying to much about guy that threw some bales of hay he no longer needs out behind a barn. Try to get them to do something that really matters. No time for that.

Do you know the definition of "ethics"?

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[Geno C]

First detection of CWD the US was in 2002

 

in 2003 NY DEC initiated part: 189 CWD to reduce the risk of CWD

 

2005 was the first and LAST that any deer in NYS ever tested positive for CWD and the only deer were 5 captive deer in a breeding facility in Oneida County.

 

2009: manditory CWD checking in madison and oneida county ENDED.

 

not one case of CWD ever reported since then. CWD came about in states like colarado i believe all originating from deer facilities NOT free range deer. I believe Ohio which is a full bait and supplemental feeding state has never encountered CWD. These diseases come from deer farms, highly concentrated DEER CONTAINED and confined to small pen areas. not piles of corn for free ranging deer... states like ohio should be concerned with CWD IMHO and its not due to the state allowing baiting. Its due to the high volume of imported and exported deer from these deer farms for breeding and shooting purposes.

[mike rossi]

was just reading this...

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/outdoors/2014/02/17/minnesota-deer-feeding-update-mdha-rallies-volunteers/

 

Oh, look at that it says in bold the DNR did this "reluctantly". I predicted that because I have a crystal ball...

[Geno C]

Oh, look at that it says in bold the DNR did this "reluctantly". I predicted that because I have a crystal ball...

 

they "reluctantly" agreed however agreed NONE THE LESS to spend 170k in feeding programs.

 

thats like you reluctantly pay taxes but do so anyway... 

 

whether the state DNR has it posted all over their DNR site or not, looks like that is the plan put in motion. i was just looking into what four season said and appears to carry truth 

[mike rossi]

they "reluctantly" agreed however agreed NONE THE LESS to spend 170k in feeding programs.

 

thats like you reluctantly pay taxes but do so anyway... 

 

whether the state DNR has it posted all over their DNR site or not, looks like that is the plan put in motion. i was just looking into what four season said and appears to carry truth 

 

Oh, OK, whatever you say Gus... Please tell the chief that Hooper drives the boat...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

First detection of CWD the US was in 2002

 

in 2003 NY DEC initiated part: 189 CWD to reduce the risk of CWD

 

2005 was the first and LAST that any deer in NYS ever tested positive for CWD and the only deer were 5 captive deer in a breeding facility in Oneida County.

 

2009: manditory CWD checking in madison and oneida county ENDED.

 

not one case of CWD ever reported since then. CWD came about in states like colarado i believe all originating from deer facilities NOT free range deer. I believe Ohio which is a full bait and supplemental feeding state has never encountered CWD. These diseases come from deer farms, highly concentrated DEER CONTAINED and confined to small pen areas. not piles of corn for free ranging deer... states like ohio should be concerned with CWD IMHO and its not due to the state allowing baiting. Its due to the high volume of imported and exported deer from these deer farms for breeding and shooting purposes.

Yes and lets not forget about the fact that the cases in Oneida County came from not a deer farmer but from a taxidermist that had deer on his place to look at for is work and the fact that he brought in and worked on deer heads that were shot it positive cwd states and counties. So a little deeper research will show you that they in fact believe that it was hunter killed deer that brought in cwd. Lest we also not forget that this guy was a Ny State rehaber that the DEC made it a habit of bringing deer in to be rehabed and released back into the wild. 

 I believe we have been through this before and it seems that the questions of, How do states like Ill that have had deer farms forever and have had 100's of cases of CWD in the wild but has yet to ever have one case behind wire????   Or maybe lets talk about sates like Maryland, Virginia and many more that have had cwd cases for years on end in the wild yet have never been able to have deer farms ever in those states??  Hmmmm...Good question's huh!

[Geno C]

Oh, OK, whatever you say Gus... Please tell the chief that Hooper drives the boat...

 

 

those were just factual notes for ya... im not telling you to believe me and only me

 

are you feelin alright bud? lol

 

maybe get some rest and have at this tomorrow... 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Do you know the definition of "ethics"?

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Ya Ok....Its all about ethics.  What a joke.

[shawnhu]

Ya Ok....Its all about ethics. What a joke.

I was taught in Hunters Ed that ethics, in short, is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching. You sir, do not fit the definition. Yes, what a joke.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

those were just factual notes for ya... im not telling you to believe me and only me

 

are you feelin alright bud? lol

 

maybe get some rest and have at this tomorrow... 

Ya buddy.All good here. I have alot of facts for ya. I now even have the same vet that works for the state that worked on those cases and in fact did the necropsies on those CWD cases.  Many,Many facts that our state and some's beloved DEC oh so much want to keep under wrap's.

[Geno C]

Yes and lets not forget about the fact that the cases in Oneida County came from not a deer farmer but from a taxidermist that had deer on his place to look at for is work and the fact that he brought in and worked on deer heads that were shot it positive cwd states and counties. So a little deeper research will show you that they in fact believe that it was hunter killed deer that brought in cwd. Lest we also not forget that this guy was a Ny State rehaber that the DEC made it a habit of bringing deer in to be rehabed and released back into the wild. 

 I believe we have been through this before and it seems that the questions of, How do states like Ill that have had deer farms forever and have had 100's of cases of CWD in the wild but has yet to ever have one case behind wire????   Or maybe lets talk about sates like Maryland, Virginia and many more that have had cwd cases for years on end in the wild yet have never been able to have deer farms ever in those states??  Hmmmm...Good question's huh!

 

i thought first CWD case in NY was from a deer facility? no pun, just asking...

 

i cant see that it was a wild deer shot free range that was carrying it? i think just recently they had an investigation to ohio and a few other states from shipped deer from facilities. seems like most cases of CWD originate there. although, there was a recent PA car kill with evidence of CWD in a wild deer... so i hear.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I was taught in Hunters Ed that ethics, in short, is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching. You sir, do not fit the definition. Yes, what a joke.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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Yeah you are about to see states start doing the right thing and if you are dumb/blind enough not to see that you may need to go to a different kind of class. You do what you think is right and you will be fine. Ethic's..lol I love it.

[Geno C]

Ya buddy.All good here. I have alot of facts for ya. I now even have the same vet that works for the state that worked on those cases and in fact did the necropsies on those CWD cases.  Many,Many facts that our state and some's beloved DEC oh so much want to keep under wrap's.

 

 

alls im saying, is sometimes the powers that be dont always have the right info ALL THE time. Or always know whats best for everyone and everything... just like the powers that be for this state and this country. i tend to not believe EVERYTHING im told, i always try to consider the source. even though the source is high and reputable, you want to believe its in the best interest of "_____" BUT, is it??

[shawnhu]

Yeah you are about to see states start doing the right thing and if you are dumb/blind enough not to see that you may need to go to a different kind of class. You do what you think is right and you will be fine. Ethic's..lol I love it.

Resorting to insults so soon?

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

i thought first CWD case in NY was from a deer facility? no pun, just asking...

 

i cant see that it was a wild deer shot free range that was carrying it? i think just recently they had an investigation to ohio and a few other states from shipped deer from facilities. seems like most cases of CWD originate there. although, there was a recent PA car kill with evidence of CWD in a wild deer... so i hear.

No disrespect here so please dont take it that way but posts just like yours is where the whole problem lies.  You make a post about deer farms being the cause of cwd and you do not even know the real published truth as to the whats,where and whens of the cases in your own state.  A little more research and you will find your answer.

 Ohio is and has always been a cwd free state.  The case this year in Pa is the 3rd case of cwd in the wild in that state and the case this year was right outside the positive state of Maryland...A deer farm free state!

 If you think for a second that cwd is just about politics and money your mistaken i believe.  A cwd live test is on the horizon and then the truths will be out.   Now back to our op.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Resorting to insults so soon?

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No need. Facts and truths are much more powerful.

[shawnhu]

No need. Facts and truths are much more powerful.

You mean the fact that you are alluding to feeding wild deer in NYS under the disguise of something else? Also that you are admitting that its ok to do it, so long as the DEC doesn't have the time or shouldn't focus their efforts on these types of violations? How's that for facts? Powerful enough?

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

You mean the fact that you are alluding to feeding wild deer in NYS under the disguise of something else? Also that you are admitting that its ok to do it, so long as the DEC doesn't have the time or shouldn't focus their efforts on these types of violations? How's that for facts? Powerful enough?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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Why do you ask?  Do you even have a clue as to where that law stands. Do you know what happened in the last court case.

 Yeah thats powerful enough. Facts my friend!!!

[Hoss315er]

The bickering never ceases on here. Can't we all just get along?

 

Anyways.... here is some useful reading on the subject if you are interested.

 

First one is out of Maine...I think they have experinced severe winters.

http://www.maine.gov/ifw/hunting_trapping/pdfs/deer_winter_feeding.pdf

 

Some tough love from Montana....another cold and snowy place.

http://animalrangeextension.montana.edu/articles/wildlife/deer_tough_love.htm

 

And one more that I was reading last week. I'll paste one of the posts that I found informative. Keep in mind that corn is a supplement food source...they need woody browse / fiber in their natural diet to be able to handle digesting the corn.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=277708&page=all

   The post by Gflo:

I went to Cal poly to study animal science; and large part of my curriculum and interest was in animal nutrition and diet formulation. I am also currently a 2nd year veterinary student, which means i don't know a whole lot, but I will write some gibberish for you guys to justify my vet school tuition. It makes me sleep better at night.

I'll give you the short story on feeding concentrates to ruminants (deer, goats, and cows are pretty damn similar concerning their digestive tracts and how they react to feeds)...

With ruminants (deer and cows) never think that you are directly feeding the animal. You are indirectly feeding the animal no matter what food you give it.

This is because you are directly feeding the microbes which call first dibs on everything the ruminant eats.

The problem with feeding a diet consisting largely in part of concentrates (Corn in this case) is that it can and will cause a dramatic shift in the bacterial population in the ruminant's stomach. The stomach will over a relatively short duration of time become much much more acidic.

As humans, we think of acidic stomachs as being normal, but deer and cows (ruminants) have special parts of their stomach that are supposed to be free of acid.

So in the case of feeding primarily concentrates, the bacteria and protozoans that thrive on eating concentrates (corn) rise in numbers, and their biproducts are acid.

This acid will kill / displace the other types of bacteria and protozoa that would normally break down grass (cellulose).

The problem here is that the bacteria and protozoa that break down grass (cellulose) are the ones that contribute the most to the energy supply of ruminants. Grass is broken down into Volatile Fatty Acids known as VFA's.

These VFA's (volatile fatty acids) are then converted in the liver into glucose, which is the energy source that animals use to fuel their bodies.

So now lets talk about the bad stuff that happens as a result of the "grass bacteria" dying, and the "corn bacteria" proliferating.

The acidic environment makes the deer produce a lot more buffer (bicarbonate) than it normally would, and eventually it runs out of buffer. The animal's blood then becomes too acidic --> Bad stuff (death).

At the same time, the deer isn't getting the VFA's (volatile fatty acids that "grass bacteria" produce) that are turned into glucose (the bodies main energy source).

As a result, the body panics and goes into an emergency survival mode and begins producing ketone bodies (a really shitty, alternate energy source for emergencies only that increases blood acid concentration... It isn't mean to operate for a long time).

Too many ketone bodies build up, and the deer's enzymes that make life possible stop working. The acidity of the deer's blood increases at the same time (and we talked earlier about how there isn't any buffer left to keep this from happening).

So again... Ketoacidosis happens... Acidity of blood increases --> Death (if this happens for a short, but somewhat extended period of time).


So feeding too much concentrate = Bad

It would be better, but also more of a pain in the ass, to feed a mix that didn't consist of just concentrates.

But if the deer seem to be living long enough to harvested, then why mess with it? If you start finding dead deer in and around your property that don't have bullet holes in them, then maybe i would think about changing things up a bit.


As a quick side note; try not to waste money buying high protein feed (soybean meal); It sounds like a great idea, but the deer won't use the protein.

They get their protein source by eating the dead bacteria and protozoans that wash out of the top compartments of their stomach into the rest of their digestive tract.

The microbes (bacteria and protozoans) get the first shot at everything you feed; so the protein would essentially be wasted (never get to the deer's main absorption mechanism).

Edited February 18, 2014 by Hoss315er

[Four Season Whitetail's]

alls im saying, is sometimes the powers that be dont always have the right info ALL THE time. Or always know whats best for everyone and everything... just like the powers that be for this state and this country. i tend to not believe EVERYTHING im told, i always try to consider the source. even though the source is high and reputable, you want to believe its in the best interest of "_____" BUT, is it??

 

 

As we have all heard, CWD was found in Oneida County, New York. CWD was confirmed on 2 different farms, the 1st farm owned by John Palmer and the 2nd by Martin Proper.   The 1st positive was a 6-year-old doe that was harvested for a fireman's benefit dinner. In talking to John, he said, "I picked out the fattest, healthiest looking doe I had."   Most people have been led to believe that CWD-positive deer exhibit signs of poor health, but the deer farming industry has found this to be untrue. The vast majority of those animals that have tested positive have shown little, if any signs of sickness.   The herd was depopulated only days after the 1st positive was found. On a Tuesday morning, sharpshooters came in and after 6 hours had put down the remaining 18 deer. Samples were collected and sent in for analysis. Friday the results were back; 3 more positives were found for CWD. These 3 deer all came from New York State's Rehabilitation Program. John Palmer acquired these deer from New York's wild population through conservation officers.   John Palmer's herd started when he purchased a few deer from Ohio in 1994. Later, he added other deer from a New York source. 7 years ago John started rehabilitating fawns. John said he took in 1-14 fawns per year from all over New York. John had the responsibility of determining whether the fawn could be released back into the wild or had to stay forever in a pen in his privately owned herd. He also relocated some of these fawns to other producers. This is how Martin Proper came into the picture.   Martin Proper is the owner of the 2nd positive herd. The animal that tested positive for CWD on his farm was a 4- or 5-year-old buck that died from pneumonia, another rehabilitated wild deer from New York. Martin received 2 deer from John Palmer's herd; one doe that was blind and one doe born with only 3 feet. They had bred and had produced some offspring. The aforementioned buck killed one of these does during last year's rut, and was not tested because it happened before their CWD Program was up and running. The rest of Martin's herd was put down and samples analyzed. No other positives were found.   There were 5 positives found in these 2 herds; 4 were deer taken from the wild [as rehabilitated fawns]. It is unclear to John where the very first doe originated, but he felt it could have originated from the wild as well.   Taking deer from the wild is not condoned by the cervid industry and is strongly discouraged; nonetheless, it did happen with the deer in this situation.   A statement released by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) on 5 Apr 2005 announced plans to conduct intensive monitoring of the wild deer population surrounding both farms to determine whether CWD has spread to the wild herds.   The NYS DEC has already directed blame towards the farmed deer industry for bringing CWD into New York, even though there is a clear history of the DEC taking deer out of the wild and placing them into John Palmer's herd for rehabilitation. The question should be, "Where did the wild deer of New York get CWD?"   Adding to the questions, without any answers, John is a taxidermist and has taken work from all over North America. He mentioned receiving work from the following states and Canadian province: Saskatchewan, Montana, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Colorado and Wyoming. When looking at where CWD has been found in the wild, many of these locations appear on that list.   In a study released by Beth Williams and Mike Miller, they noted that [a deer] was just as likely to contract CWD from a live infected deer as it was to be housed in a pen with a dead positive carcass.   Did one or more of the many dead animals brought into John's taxidermy studio have CWD? John stated that he kept the rehabilitation fawns in the same garage where he did much of his taxidermy work. It was common practice for John to sweep up his shop and deposit the salt and chemicals along the deer fence as a weed retardant.   The industry has always said that movement of CWD-positive carcasses would move CWD much faster and farther than moving live animals. Is the New York situation just that? Is there a need to regulate movement of CWD-positive carcasses?   There are many points that come to the forefront from the situation in New York:   * The detection of CWD in New York clearly shows that the monitoring system is working. These programs are set up to identify herds at risk.   * This event highlights the need for surveillance. Without the state monitoring/surveillance programs, these positive deer would not be detected. The more herds on these programs, the lower the risk.   * In the face of CWD, the best defense is herd monitoring/surveillance. What better way to get participation than to recognize those who have already participated in these programs and allow for continued movement for their herds that have met the needed criteria? The event in New York has _in no way_ compromised the health status of any herd that has been enrolled in a CWD monitoring/surveillance program.   * CWD conjures up many questions that remain unanswered. There is a continued need for the government agencies involved and the industry to work together to resolve some of those questions.   * As previously seen, in discoveries of CWD, including this New York case, all too often the producer is portrayed as a villain. There is no one who wants this "disease" to be found on their property. When CWD is found, the industry expects the producers to be treated fairly and with respect. The finger-pointing and intimidation tactics are _not_ needed to resolve the issues involved with CWD and private ownership of deer in the United States.   Deer farmers are fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters. They have served this country in the armed forces. Deer farmers come from all walks of life; doctors, lawyers, carpenters, plumbers, and housekeepers. The one thing they all have in common is the passion they have for their deer. Let us work together to resolve the issues that CWD brings to the forefront across this great country of ours.     Gary Nelson, President NADeFA [email protected]   [it has been reported in other newspaper sources that the owner of index herd in NY not only put the salt and other products from cleaning up his taxidermy work along his fence lines -- thus exposing his captive herd -- but also that the fawns in the taxidermy garage area may have licked, mouthed, or chewed on entrails from some deer.   It is stated in this NADeFA release that the owner of the index herd was to decide whether the rehabilitated deer could return to the wild or were not capable of survival on their own, presumably because of serious injury, such as 3 legs, or imprinting on people. However, he was instructed to turn some loose in the wild.   If the fawn or fawns in question consumed -- or otherwise contacted -- infected tissues in the taxidermy shop and then were released to the wild, then it could be speculated that NYS DEC would likely find exposed wild animals. If the fawn was originally wild, exposed through taxidermy work on other wild animals, and then released back to the wild, it would be difficult to say that captive animals brought disease to wild animals. It would be more acceptable to say the wild animals have introduced this disease to captive animals.

[mike rossi]

At the same time, the deer isn't getting the VFA's (volatile fatty acids that "grass bacteria" produce) that are turned into glucose (the bodies main energy source).

The acidic environment makes the deer produce a lot more buffer (bicarbonate) than it normally would, and eventually it runs out of buffer. The animal's blood then becomes too acidic --> Bad stuff (death).

At the same time, the deer isn't getting the VFA's (volatile fatty acids that "grass bacteria" produce) that are turned into glucose (the bodies main energy source).

As a result, the body panics and goes into an emergency survival mode and begins producing ketone bodies (a really shitty, alternate energy source for emergencies only that increases blood acid concentration... It isn't mean to operate for a long time).

Too many ketone bodies build up, and the deer's enzymes that make life possible stop working. The acidity of the deer's blood increases at the same time (and we talked earlier about how there isn't any buffer left to keep this from happening).

So again... Ketoacidosis happens... Acidity of blood increases --> Death (if this happens for a short, but somewhat extended period of time).

 

 

Please tell them what you said above means starvation, particularly this part:

 

"At the same time, the deer isn't getting the VFA's (volatile fatty acids that "grass bacteria" produce) that are turned into glucose (the bodies main energy source)".

 

You also said this: So feeding too much concentrate = Bad.

 

No doubt, however keep in mind, Lactic Acidosis or rumen acidosis, whichever term you prefer, isn't restricted to commercial feed products. It can be caused by grain and hay and probably many other things people might try to feed deer...

 

Edited February 18, 2014 by mike rossi