Upset again in the Superbowl of Upland Bird Hunting!

[mike rossi]

History has been made! Shadow Oak Bo has won the National Championship for the second straight year! The last dog to win back to back was Paladin (pointer) in 1951 & 1952. The last setter to win back to back was Sioux in 1901 & 1902. The impact of this win on field trialing, setters, bird dogs and all upland sports is immeasurable. His pups and service are really going to bring some big bucks now! If one of his offspring wins the national or is consistent in any of the other major stakes, watch out! Congratulations goes out to the owners Butch Houston & Dr. John Dorminy, handler Robin Gates and Scout Luke Eisenhart.

 

Edited February 21, 2014 by mike rossi

[pauplander]

He is a great dog!

 

btw….Does the AKC have a National Championship like the American Field?

[mike rossi]

He is a great dog!

 

btw….Does the AKC have a National Championship like the American Field?

I know in the past the AKC held breed specific national championships for Brittanys and German Shorthairs. They also had an all breed and/or continental breed national championship in the past as well. There may be or have been others as well, I am not sure.

 

If you are building up to the debate over how competitive the continental breeds are against the English pointers and English  setters, oh my, here we go...

Edited May 2, 2014 by mike rossi

[pauplander]

No debate on dogs.  I have two English Setters.  I run them in all breed AKC trials.  AKC trials are closer to me and more convenient.  However, I would not put a lot of merit in trials to base your opinion on a breed.

 

Below is how I feel about AKC and American Field: 

 

AF - Older group, not much money as an organization…may fade away in the next 10-15 years IMO, FT judges (Anyone willing to do it?)…cover dog trials (winners are picked without any wild birds pointed?)

 

AKC - Mixed group,  Lots of $, FT judges must be certified (reach level judging/exam/apprenticeship)

 

Anyway you look at it…lots of politics and some champions I would never breed to...

 

 

[wheelieman]

The Hunt tests are fun and expensive, Honestly it also seems to be a very clicky event, The who you know comes into play more than how your dog actually runs, Ive seen it on more than one occasion, Ive seen dogs win when there was better dogs that ran better,In the field being judged by the same judge on the same day, , But that was in waterfowl retrieving tests, I can imagine that Upland bird hunting really wouldnt be much different, I know that what matters in the circles im in these days, What matters the most is hunting with the dog and seeing how the dog works in real world hunting conditions, Im waiting for the OFA results to come back now on my 2 1/2 year old Black lab now so i can breed her, There is a waiting list on her pups already and she isnt even bred,  After going to these events and seeing the politics ive decided i was staying away from the competition side of things with her, Even though her parents have both earned national and senior hunt, ribbons, 

[mike rossi]

I can see by the posts by you two that you both got an accurate sense for these events. I would comment that pointing dog trials are even more subjective than retriever events, especially the trials which differ from tests. Subjectivity also ties in with the comment about cover dog trials. Granted, you cant judge a dogs bird work/training on the run alone, but even when you are out hunting and get skunked, you know when your dog worked the whole time, dug into the cover, and at a good pace and range. The situation where a dog makes a find in a cover dog trial and a bird less dog is placed or wins the stake naturally draws controversy. But if a dog slams a bird at the break away and then doesn't work the entire heat, he just got lucky and bumbled into a bird. I am not necessarily defending that call but I understand it.  Rich man's sport anyway, not for the average hunter...

[GrouseHunter]

Upland bird Hunting dogs require a lot of time and training and money. When you hunt with a dog that is steady to wing and shot on wild birds it is a true adventure and pleasure. However hunting seasons are short and I own the dogs all year. Trials are a good way to keep a dog at peak levels and see other dogs out there. It is true that most trial people have  given up hunting but many still do. It is true that there is politics involved at some trials and not all judges are good. But no one is getting paid and most are doing the best they can as it is a hobby. That being said a lot of people cant get there dogs to the level it takes to win and then they take the tone that its all fixed or unfair. In the trial game you always loose a way lot more than you win and that does not mean your dog is not a good dog just not the best dog that day, for some that is hard to take as we all know are dogs are the best.

 

I have 4 dogs and I trial a lot and it is fun but I myself and I know many others who feel the same would much rather be hunting wild birds. Sadly wild bird hunting is getting harder and harder to find.

[wheelieman]

I understand what your saying and yes there are fair and unfair, Good and bad, Just like with all things, Now that my results are back and i was surprised but she was graded excellent, I will be having her bred with a wonderful chocolate lab, Again he is a proven retriever and is what im looking for when it comes to a hunting companion, 

[GrouseHunter]

There are many good dogs that never trial. I know a guy with a hunting dog that is great and has never been run in trials. He has bred it to a few females and some of the pups have gone on to be field champs in AKC. A trial is a good way to work dogs in the off season and they can be lots of fun but you have to judge your own dog. Good luck with your breeding.  

[pistolp71]

In retriever hunt tests there really isn't politics involved because you are judged against a standard, pass or fail. There is no winner on placement,. So, wheelie man what you said doesn't make sense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wheelieman]

Really the tests that i witnessed were very bias so what you say makes no sense, never mind the fact that ive never run my dog in one and if i did she would get her senior hunter with out a problem, I thought about the going through the process until i went to an event and watched, i was really surprised to see how bias it was, Seemed to me that the judges were letting errors through and nailing beginners and people that were not part of their click, Standard or not a judge is a judge and its very easy for them to look the other way for some and not others, I had my dog trained by in my opinion the best retriever trainer in the state, Now i have run Daisy in hunt challenges those are a good time and are geared more toward real hunting situations. Those are fun and not as bias and the judges seem fair and straight forward, Im sorry that you have a different view than i do, but i know this season when i have a goose go down just out of sight or in a woodlot my dog will retrieve it and thats all that really matters, If i have to cast her to it then so be it, But ive never lost a bird with her and i know we will have many more great seasons together,  

[mike rossi]

Really the tests that i witnessed were very bias so what you say makes no sense, never mind the fact that ive never run my dog in one and if i did she would get her senior hunter with out a problem, I thought about the going through the process until i went to an event and watched, i was really surprised to see how bias it was, Seemed to me that the judges were letting errors through and nailing beginners and people that were not part of their click, Standard or not a judge is a judge and its very easy for them to look the other way for some and not others, I had my dog trained by in my opinion the best retriever trainer in the state, Now i have run Daisy in hunt challenges those are a good time and are geared more toward real hunting situations. Those are fun and not as bias and the judges seem fair and straight forward, Im sorry that you have a different view than i do, but i know this season when i have a goose go down just out of sight or in a woodlot my dog will retrieve it and thats all that really matters, If i have to cast her to it then so be it, But ive never lost a bird with her and i know we will have many more great seasons together,  

 

I don't doubt your dog does well and your trainer is talented, but I want to put marking in perspective. Generally your dog's marking ability will develop from hunting experience more so than training. A trainer should implement exercises that enhance a dog's marking ability, but few of us hunt in permanent blinds located near traditional waterfowl passes with fresh birds throughout the season. More typical hunting is very mobile and from makeshift blinds. The point being, is the dog seldom has a perfect view of falling birds and common training exercises to enhance marking only do so much, even if the trainer works the dog in heavy cover.

 

Standard marking drills are very akin to Pistol Pete's complaint about how AKC hunt tests and trials are run. If a trainer uses a bird thrower dressed in white, using large white bumpers, shooting at the throw instead of at the line, a nearly blind dog can mark. I do this to, but extend the marks out to 1/3 of a mile and it is mainly to exercise the dog's muscle rather than eyeballs. Overdone this can create a lazy marker however.

 

Reason I raise this is because of your comment about having to cast your dog now and then. We all have to cast our dog now and then - otherwise why even bother to train a dog to line, stop, and cast, (that is do a blind retrieve), but one should not trivialize the importance of good marking. As you continue to hunt your dog, unless you over do it with blinds and AKC style marking exercises, your dog will mature into a better and better marker. On the other hand, if you get hooked on tests and/or trials, you might develop an over-dependent dog that might perform on a trial/test course, but in actual hunting conditions looks for direction and 'pops' on every mark that's not a straight "lay up".

 

I also don't want anybody to get the idea to use one of those hand held bumper-launchers that resemble guns at the line.( I don't mean winger-zingers, I mean the hand held gadgets). This is not a remedy to the problem of the shot at the thrower instead of the line. I have encountered dogs started this way that actually leap at the gun barrel at the shot, very dangerous off course and the dog is not marking at all, rather than expecting a dove or mallard to fly out of the gun barrel. If you have this product throw it in the trash. It wont even be useful a way from the line with a helper either, because of the reason I already described.

Edited May 21, 2014 by mike rossi