Training season is not over

[Tacti_Steve]

It just occurred to me that I've never poster here about Special Dog Training Areas. This is something every Houndsmen in NYS must know about. Frankly I'm surprised more don't use them. This is a law I really got into when I started running coon hounds. And I'm so glad I did the research. I ended up at the regional director for DEC region 8 clarifying the law. In my research I found out the law was put in back in the 1930's for Rabbit clubs. And it has pretty much been forgotten about ever since.

 

Backing up a second let's start with why there is a need for these. Section 11-0923 of the Environmental Conservation law says no owner or trainer of a dog shall take it afield for training on wild game except from July 1st for Bear, Raccoon, Fox, Bobcat or Coyote and August 16th for everything else; to April 15th.

Why is that? Well because that is when animals have their young. They don't want dogs and hunters harassing the young or the possibility of dogs catching the young. Understandable. That's not very sporting. But let's remove the sporting aspect for a moment. Why else would you be running your hound outside of the killing season? Maybe for competitions? 11-0927 of the Environmental Conservation law covers those. "A field trial may be held on liberated game, liberated artificially propagated game, led or confined game legally possessed, or on wild game on a licensed dog training area at any time without license, provided such game is not taken by shooting or otherwise killed; and, on areas other than a licensed dog training area, such field trials may be held on wild game from August 16 to April 15 without license, or at such other times when licensed by the department from April 16 to August 15."

 

Now we start to see language and a need for training areas. So the DEC has to create a permit to allow clubs to run in this "off season". To do that they need to create some rules as to where and how you conduct the hunt. So enters 11-0925 (I know it's actually before 11-0927) of the Environmental Conservation law "Special Dog Training Area" and "Part 66". A quick little side blurb about part 66. It is the part of the law that every officer does know. It doesn't say a whole lo that 11-0925 doesn't. But a key thing to know is that it is not posted online in it's entirety! I didn't realize that until the Lt in Avon sent me a scanned in copy of his book.There are some very critical parts missing from what is posted online.

 

Here's the short and sweet of it. The license the clubs get basically says hey we're going to have a competition. Now for the coon hunts they don't (can't) have penned in land to run the dogs. So basically it says they can hold the competition on land they have permission to. But for say Rabbit or bird clubs that generally will have a penned in property it outlines the criteria. Basically that it has to be registered and posted as a Special Dog Training Area.

 

Ok so that covers the competitions and we now have rules for Special Dog Training Areas. Why else would you be out there during the "off season"? How about to keep animals from destroying crops? Let's go back to 11-0923. "allow it [dog] to run at large in fields or woods inhabited by deer outside the limits of any city or village, except on lands actually farmed or cultivated by the owner or trainer of the dog or a tenant of such owner or trainer". In English that is saying that you can allow a dog to run free in any farmed field. But not the tree's surrounding the field. Not that you can "train" your dog. But that you can let it chase game out of the field to prevent crop damage.

 

Any other reasons? How about because I want some exercise, I need to keep my dog trained in-between competitions, or that my dog is going to tree the coon after it chases it out of the field? Now it gets interesting! In all honesty I love running my hounds because it gets me out. It's a stress reliever, its exercise, it's get away from my wife, and it's I love to hear my dogs on track. In the years I've been doing this I have never had my hounds catch a kit coon. I've had them catch full grown ones. Now sure it's possible. But let's be honest if it happens is it really going to make any impact on the population? Hound hunting is way down, Raccoon populations are way up (arguably out of control). No there's no real wrong here. Plus in order for me to hunt most of the properties I do, I've got to show that I'm reducing the crop damage. I've got farmers that have told me I'd better be shooting them down all year and to not let them see me out there without a gun (more on that later).

 

So I need a legal means to be out there. And trust me I get stopped enough that yes I need to be legal. So I went looking for a way. I found this law on special dog training areas. And like most laws things weren't clear, things conflicted, and things were missing. So I started asking questions. One of the places I went to for answers was the DEC. I asked where I get a permit for a Special Dog Training Area. Well come to find out if the property is privately owned, I don't pay to use it, and not used by a club or for a competition I don't need a permit. Nor does the property need to be marked or registered as such. It just simply needs to be declared. Really what it came down to was they don't care. Essentially it's my word against the officers that it has been declared a Special Dog Training Area. Now the catch is it needs to be declared as such by the property owner (not me). So I wrote my hunting permission slips in such a way that the owners are declaring it. Thereby avoiding the officer waking a farmer up at night and the farmer not knowing what he is talking about. Because they don't care and they're not going to remember. I have it in writing so it is.

 

Now some restrictions. This doesn't work on any public land. In fact it is specifically called out that parks and whatnot can't be declared Special Dog Training Areas. Now I do hunt some public lands so I do try to keep that in mind. Let's go a little further down the rabbit hole. Remember I said there are a couple of farmers that say I have to carry my gun and shoot the Raccoon's? How about the fact that I have a pistol permit and carry as often as I can for protection. And yes Coyotes attack my dog while he's tree'd with some regularity, so there is a need for protection.

 

Now until this point I (as are most people) was under the impression you cannot have a firearm in the field while training your hound. I don't understand why. You're not guilty of poaching until you actually shoot something. Essentially not allowing it is a presumption of guilt and that you're going to do something illegal. Good thing that impression is false. I think it comes from two things. First you can't have a firearm with you during a competition. Secondly you can't have a firearm with you unless it's loaded with blanks per 11-0923.

 

Now the Supreme Court in the Heller decision confirmed the right to possess a firearm is an individual right for protection. So there's some conflicts here and arguments that can go both ways. I'm not going to go into those. The point is expect problems. The saving grace if you're going to carry is that you are in fact allowed to. Therefore there is no cause for them to inspect (search) the bullets in the gun. So make sure you declare for the record you are declining search and seizure and you'll have a leg to stand on. Now like I said I get stopped almost frequently. I've never had this come up. They check my permit and move onto whatever it is they stopped me for. I've had officers tell me that as long as I'm not carrying a gun typically used for Raccoon hunting I should be ok. So my 9mm or even stretch that to my 22 mag and it's a defense gun with a good argument as such. Keep in mind though that is up to opinion. Regardless you could be in for a long night.

 

In summary, you can run your hound on any game other than Bear or Deer all year round as long as you are on private property "declared" a Special Dog Training Area. You can even carry a gun with you, but you're asking for a hassle if you do.

 

Porcupine's are the alternative to Special Dog Training Areas. There is no season on porcupines. There are also no rules against hunting them with Hounds. Now the laws recognize that sometimes hounds chase unintended game. In the sport this is called Trashing. As soon as you realize that the hound is chasing unintended game you are supposed to stop it. Now porcupines and raccoon's are very difficult to tell apart on track. You often don't know until the dog trees them. So if your hound trashes on raccoon's when its "supposed" to be running porcupines well bad dog. 

 

The other thing you're not supposed to do when training your hound at all let alone in a special dog training area is carry a firearm loaded with anything other than blanks. But if you're hunting porcupines you're allowed to carry a firearm loaded with whatever you want really as there are no restrictions on bullet type for porcupines. Happy Hunting!

 

§ 11-0923. Dogs. 1. No owner or trainer of a dog shall: a. allow it to hunt deer, or to run at large on enclosed lands on which wildlife or domestic game is possessed under license issued pursuant to the Fish and Wildlife Law or in any state park, state park reservation, state-owned game farm or wildlife refuge or state-owned or leased wildlife management area; b. allow it to run at large in fields or woods inhabited by deer outside the limits of any city or village, except on lands actually farmed or cultivated by the owner or trainer of the dog or a tenant of such owner or trainer. 2. No owner or trainer of a dog shall take it afield for training on wild game except from August 16 to April 15 or as otherwise permitted by department order. 3. Dogs may be trained on artificially propagated game which is shackled, or led or confined game, legally possessed, or on training dummies or other artificial devices at any time on lands owned or leased by the owner or trainer of the dog or on lands for which he has written permission of the owner or lessee, provided such training is done in a manner to preclude any disturbances injurious to wildlife. 4. During the training of a dog, the trainer and any person in his company shall not possess afield a firearm loaded with ammunition other than blank shells or blank cartridges, or inflict any injury to animals or game birds contrary to law. 5. Dogs hunting deer, or hunting any wildlife or domestic game on enclosed lands described in paragraph a of subdivision 1 or on a state game farm or wildlife refuge or wildlife management area, may be killed as provided in section 11-0529. 6. Wildlife, except skunk, deer and bear, may be taken with the aid of a dog, provided, however, that the department is authorized to establish a training season during which only persons licensed by the department pursuant to section 11-0928 of this article may train tracking dogs on bear. Such season shall not begin before July first and shall end at least eight days in advance of any open hunting season for bear and no person participating in such training shall possess a firearm of any kind or a longbow. Nothing in this subdivision shall be construed to invalidate or otherwise affect a permit to track or take bear issued pursuant to subdivision one of section 11-0521 of this article.

§ 11-0925. Special dog training areas. 1. a. A dog owner or trainer may establish and maintain a special dog training area on land which the owner or trainer owns or has legal control. b. The operator of a special dog training area may at any time during the year train the operator's own dogs or the dogs of other persons on such area, and permit others to train dogs. The operator may hold field trials on wild game, or on liberated game, or on liberated artificially propagated game, or on led or confined game, or may in writing permit others to hold such trials, under such conditions as shall be agreed upon by the operator and such other person; but no game shall be taken by shooting at such field trial. No persons shall, on a special dog training area, train a dog, hold a field trial, enter accompanied by a dog, or permit a dog of which he is the owner or trainer to enter, except as provided in this section or in rules adopted pursuant hereto. A permit from the department must be obtained before liberation of any wildlife, and such a permit may be withheld if, in the opinion of the department, granting it would endanger the health of native wildlife species. 2. The department may adopt rules regulating the use of special dog training areas. 3. No person shall hunt on a special dog training area except as provided in this section or rules adopted pursuant thereto. The owner of the lands may hunt unprotected wildlife thereon at any time, and the owner of the land and others authorized by such owner may hunt deer thereon during the open season but at no other time.

11-0927. Field trials. 1. No person shall hold a field trial except as provided in this section or take part in a field trial not conducted in accordance with the provisions of this section. 2. a. A field trial may be held on liberated game, liberated artificially propagated game, led or confined game legally possessed, or on wild game on a licensed dog training area at any time without license, provided such game is not taken by shooting or otherwise killed; and, on areas other than a licensed dog training area, such field trials may be held on wild game from August 16 to April 15 without license, or at such other times when licensed by the department from April 16 to August 15. b. A permit from the department is required for liberation of any wildlife. 3. Wild game shall not be taken by shooting or otherwise killed in the course of a field trial. Other game on which a field trial may be held as provided in this section may be taken by shooting in the course of a field trial, except a field trial held on a licensed dog training area, provided a license for such shooting has been procured from the department. Game so taken shall be immediately identified on forms provided by the department until the game is finally prepared for consumption. 4. Game so identified may be possessed, transported, bought and sold at any time, without limitation by section 11-0917 of this article.

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 14:34:07 -0400
From: [email protected]
To: 
Subject: RE: Special Dog Training area information

Stephen,

Yours is the first request regarding this topic I have had in the 7 years I have been Regional Wildlife Manager, and the law is rather vague.

Rather than giving you incorrect information I have requested clarification on this issue from Albany, as to whether or not a Special License is required to create a Special Dog Training Area, and what the requirements are for creating such an area, given that no hunting for anything other than deer is allowed on Special Dog Training Areas.

It may be easier to answer your question regarding the actual training, if I knew what type of training you were interested in doing. The law and regulations work together depending on the training and whether it is on wild game or captive game, and who owns the lands the dog will be trained on.

Michael R. Wasilco
Regional Wildlife Manager
NYS Department of Environmental Conservation
Region 8 Bureau of Wildlife
6274 East Avon-Lima Road
Avon, NY 14414
(585)226-5460

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 16:34:47 -0400
From: [email protected]
To: 
Subject: RE: Special Dog Training area information

Mr.:

The owner/operator may hunt protected game animals during the open season and may hunt unprotected wildlife anytime, providing they have a hunting license.

66.1(e) States: Each license for a dog training area issued under 11-0925 of the fish and wildlife law will be in effect from Jan 1st-Dec 31st, or a shorter period as specified on the license.

11-0925 does not provide information regarding the application process for a Special dog training area. That's why I suggested you call the Special License unit.Capt. John W. Burke

NYS DEC Police

6274 East Avon-Lima Road

Avon, NY 14414-9519

Office - 585-226-6706

Fax - 585-226-8533

From: [email protected]
To:
Subject: RE: Special Dog Training area information
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:52:37 +0000

Good morning Steve,



My apologies for the marked delay. The department does not license dog training areas and, provided the provisions of ECL 11-0925 and Part 66 of the Codes, Rules and Regulations of New Yorkhttp://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/3990.htmlare followed, an individual may establish a special dog training area without license. Please note, a license from the department is required prior to the release of any wildlife to the wild including captive bred species.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Tacti_Steve

[Padre86]

A very interesting read, and one that I will likely need to revisit, as there much information to digest.

 

OP, I don't have a hound, but I do have a dog that is very good at scent and tracking work (GSD).  I have already taken the leashed tracking dog exam and am currently submitting my application for the license itself.

 

However, I am interested in meeting up with some houndsmen who either compete or use their dogs to hunt to ask questions and get advice on tracking training.  

 

Do you know of any hunting clubs in Western NY or NY in general that I might be able to talk to?

I'm looking to get some basic training and prep in for the next season so that i can hunt coyote and turkey, among other small game during the next season.  I realize that  my dog's breed isn't suited to the style of hunting used by houndsmen, but all the same I am interested in talking to someone who has experience running hounds and training dogs to track, as I have next to zero experience with that stuff.

 

Any suggestions?  

 

Edit: I also noticed that you are out of Rochester, which is where I live.  If ever you were available to meet up for quick chat, I certainly would be up for that...it's been a struggle to find people who are into this sort of stuff.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Padre86

[Tacti_Steve]

A very interesting read, and one that I will likely need to revisit, as there much information to digest.

 

OP, I don't have a hound, but I do have a dog that is very good at scent and tracking work (GSD).  I have already taken the leashed tracking dog exam and am currently submitting my application for the license itself.

 

However, I am interested in meeting up with some houndsmen who either compete or use their dogs to hunt to ask questions and get advice on tracking training.  

 

Do you know of any hunting clubs in Western NY or NY in general that I might be able to talk to?

I'm looking to get some basic training and prep in for the next season so that i can hunt coyote and turkey, among other small game during the next season.  I realize that style of hunting is different from how houndsmen use their dogs to track game, but all the same I am interested in talking to someone who has experience running hounds and training dogs to track, as I have next to zero experience with that stuff.

 

Any suggestions?  

There are several clubs in western NY. Including me depending on where you are. My advice would be to go to an event and not only talk to people but go along as a spectator. It will open your eyes to a whole new hunting. Just bring your boots and a decent light. You can do a flash light but I'd recommend a $20 Cree light from Amazon. That's how I got my start. Here's a link to the events The Northeastern Big Game Trials are also this weekend in Salem NY. That would be a great place.

[Padre86]

There are several clubs in western NY. Including me depending on where you are. My advice would be to go to an event and not only talk to people but go along as a spectator. It will open your eyes to a whole new hunting. Just bring your boots and a decent light. You can do a flash light but I'd recommend a $20 Cree light from Amazon. That's how I got my start. Here's a link to the events The Northeastern Big Game Trials are also this weekend in Salem NY. That would be a great place.

 

Hey thanks!  I'll definitely check out the link you provided.

 

I edited my last post, but I probably should have PM'd you about this; I actually live in Rochester as well.  So if your club is doing anything in the near future, I'd certainly be interested in observing.  

[Tacti_Steve]

Hey thanks!  I'll definitely check out the link you provided.

 

I edited my last post, but I probably should have PM'd you about this; I actually live in Rochester as well.  So if your club is doing anything in the near future, I'd certainly be interested in observing.  

The closest clubs to rochester are the Albion, branchport and warsaw clubs. None are really close. I go to the Albion club whenever I can. The guys there are pretty nice. I recommend searching around http://kcshounds.com/ Matt the guy that owns it lives in Fairport. It's a small group of close niche guys that are always nice to people looking to get into the sport. I'm in scottsville. I haven't been running my hound the past couple of months as much as I normally do. I've just been super busy. I've been running 1-2 nights/week where usually I run 5+. I've also only got a new pup that is not doing very well. But you're welcome to set up a night to come out with me. 

 

http://www.coondawgs.com/is also a good site for information but the guy that runs it is kind of a jerk. He won't let you post any question that has already been asked so for someone like you it's really just for searching around and researching. But it does have a lot of really good information. 

[Padre86]

The closest clubs to rochester are the Albion, branchport and warsaw clubs. None are really close. I go to the Albion club whenever I can. The guys there are pretty nice. I recommend searching around http://kcshounds.com/ Matt the guy that owns it lives in Fairport. It's a small group of close niche guys that are always nice to people looking to get into the sport. I'm in scottsville. I haven't been running my hound the past couple of months as much as I normally do. I've just been super busy. I've been running 1-2 nights/week where usually I run 5+. I've also only got a new pup that is not doing very well. But you're welcome to set up a night to come out with me. 

 

http://www.coondawgs.com/is also a good site for information but the guy that runs it is kind of a jerk. He won't let you post any question that has already been asked so for someone like you it's really just for searching around and researching. But it does have a lot of really good information. 

 

Thanks for the additional links!

 

PM sent.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Padre86

[Chromeslayer]

Theres a beagle field trial this weekend at java village beagle club as well if you would like to see the dogs run.. cottontail and hare at the club.. fri, sat and sun.. 8am start time

[Paula]

I am hoping to go Sat.

[Paula]

I will be enter a dog on Sunday

[Chromeslayer]

Dogs ran pretty good today!