Doc

Hey, keep us updated on your progress. I think that would be great! You should document the whole procedure all the way through to a successful kill. What a great magazine article that would make.

Ha-ha ... it looks like this thread took a rather lively turn after I got off-line yesterday. Piled on another 2 or 3 pages just over-night ..... lol. Well, I have some preferred methods of hunting too and some that I really don't care for. But I will say that I have spent time doing all of them. I am not afraid to list off the arguments for and against each. It's what's known as an opinion. And yes, most of the reasons are personal and based on what hunting means to me, and the traditions and history that I was raised with. My feelings about shot selection are in the same vein also. There are certain shots that to me do not allow the shooter to pick a lethal spot before pulling the trigger (a criteria that was drummed into my head from the beginnings of my hunting). I am also not bashful about stating those opinions either. That's kind of what we do here, isn't it? And then we are always treated to one of these, "Can't we all just get along" whiney replies that frankly are getting kind of old. This is a forum. Opinions are expressed here. Like any opinions, there is some agreement and there is some disagreement. This does not mean that hunting as an activity is going to cease to exist and come crashing down around our ears. The drama is wonderful but really, let's understand that we all do things differently, and there really is no requirement that just because we are hunters, we all have to trash our beliefs and opinions just to avoid disagreements.

I'm not sure how to assess the balance of nature aspects of management, but I do sincerely believe that the uncontrolled proliferation of raptor populations does have impacts on small game species. Granted, that's a difficult thought to back up numerically, and is based solely on local observations. It could be completely wrong. But I do believe that our impacts on balances in nature do require our interventions in Mother Nature's more natural methods. Actually, that is the primary justification for hunting. It seems inconsistent to allow a certain species to be completely unchecked when they in turn dictate the population levels of other species. So to make management decisions based on the "coolness" of a certain species seems to me to be the wrong criteria. And I sincerely wonder if that doesn't happen more often than we admit. It is just another variation on the "Bambi-ism" syndrome. But, I am afraid that I am driving this thread way off-topic. I just got sidetracked when the subject of raptor control vs. coyote control came up. Sorry about that.

I never was much into drives, but I have participated in a couple. I also remember a lot of people who thought they could hit running deer. Many (most?) of them found out that they couldn't. And then there were the ones that could hit deer but not in lethal areas. We spent most of the rest of the day tracking those. Also, over the years, I have gotten a lot more selective in my shot selection. I tend to take high percentage shots rather than hoping for divine intervention .... lol.

My impression of that shot on the 2nd deer was that the guy was just doing what I call "body-shooting". That is just pointing at the center body crossing your fingers and hoping for something vital to be hit. Not exactly doing what we have all been taught ..... "picking a spot". The good news is that with the deer moving almost straight at him, and being almost straight down, the up and down running motion had no effect on the target. Also, the deer was very close. Still not a shot that I would have taken, but not as crazy as some of the running shots that I have heard people talk of. I think that hit was more good luck than good management since he accidentally paralyzed the deer and managed to anchor it there for a second shot.

When I was a kid, I used to climb the hill and then hike all day without ever seeing a posted sign. That would be like a 6 or 7 hour hike ..... no signs. Nobody cared. Not like that anymore is it?....lol. farmers were obviously more guarded about their fields, pastures, and yards, but when it came to the wooded hillsides, they were just considered excess land that kind of came along with the property but was of little use.

By the way, reviewing the video, I did notice that there was only one (the second one) of the four that were actually seen to be running, and that was the one that he screwed up. The first one was just barely trotting (straight-line). The other two we have no idea what they were doing. If they were standing dead still, it wouldn't be the first time I have seen a group of deer do that after a shot.

Moving or running? There is a hell of a difference, isn't there?

Generally when asked, I am quick to condemn running shots. That is not saying that they can't be made, but generally more people believe they can than there are those that actually can. A deer running through the woods is challenge enough if they were on a pulley and line, but they are also moving their kill zone up and down at the same time. And they are running between trees at the same time. Now I can be as gullible as the next guy occasionally, but really I lay success at that kind of recklessness more to good luck than good marksmanship.

As I understand it, using buck-shot on running deer has been known to work ....... Just like shooting birds and rabbits. But then that isn't what we are talking here is it? We aren't using buck-shot are we? Perhaps if you were able to successfully knock down flying birds and running rabbits with a single projectile, I might go along with that comparison. And I am sure there a few, very, very, rare individuals that can do that regularly. Good for them.

Yep! In the video, "Bowhunting October Whitetails", I saw the Wentzels doing that. I also noticed that they didn't really do all that well at it either.

There ya go. Wing shooting deer. You've got to get that lead just right (fore and aft and up and down) .... lol. But, what the heck, if you don't get them on the first shot, you still have 4 more in the magazine. That's probably what those 5-shot volleys that I hear every year are all about. Was I supposed to be impressed by hunting "trick-shots"? Sorry, I have no idea how many other times he has been blazing away with entirely different results. Ever wonder how many wounding failures a guy has to go through just to learn how to shoot at running deer? After all, there aren't a whole lot of different ways that you can practice shooting a target that is running full-tilt through the trees and bouncing up and down at the same time, other than just flinging lead until you get the knack of it.

Exactly the same sentiments that an ex-neighbor of ours used to have about deer. How many times did I hear, "Management and population control be damned ..... I like to see the deer"? In fact I have a couple of relatives that feel that way about coyotes. It's the old "doggy-thing". Nothing should be allowed to proliferate in an uncontrolled fashion no matter how "cool" they are.

Yeah, Disney grew a whole bunch of generations of animal rights wackos. I don't think that was his intent, but it all aided the establishment of a lot of these organizations. But of course, there is a whole bunch of social evolution that fueled anti-hunting stuff. Chief among them is the proliferation of people's desires to simply get into your stuff and mess with your life. Some people aren't really all that happy with their life unless they are wagging their finger in your face and telling you how wrong you are conducting your life. I think a lot of anti-hunting zealots are more motivated by that than anything to do with animals.

Oh great! Now the anti-gunners will be coming for our pump shotguns. 4 kills in 9 seconds ..... My gosh, that has to be some kind of assault shotgun.....lol.

Wow! You guys can turn any topic into a flame-fest ..... eh? This thread has taken quite a journey from where it started.

Good luck on getting him. Somebody on here came up with a good idea on one of the other threads. Take an old junk "throw-away" camera and fill it with dog-shit and let them guys steal that ..... lol. Hopefully they will get it all the way home or into their car before they open it up.

I've got a new cam in delivery right now as we speak. I just ordered a replacement for the one I had stolen from me. It should be coming any day now. It's a strange selection that bucks the trend quite a bit, but it is a Cuddeback Attack white-flash camera. The white flash is getting harder and harder to find for obvious reasons, but I am interested in pictures that are a bit more artsy-fartsy for night-time pictures. I'm not just after deer pictures. The one that got stolen took some fantastic pictures, so I wanted it replaced.

Sometimes you just can't beat the situation. I have seen more than a couple videos of deer that dodged arrows and they have a whole variety of things that they do. But mostly they are dropping down and twisting at the same time to turn around. Now anyone who claims they can beat that maneuver must be awful good ..... lol. Most of those that claim that they have, haven't given enough credit to just plain old good luck. The one thing about bow hunting is that there are no absolutes until the deer is dead on the ground at your feet. That's why they call it hunting and not slaughtering. The only thing that I have found that gives me half a chance is to shoot at deer that are kind of relaxed. While that is no guarantee that they will not "jump-the-string", It gives you a fighting chance. I will not shoot at a deer that has got me pegged. I will not give a grunt or other noises to stop a deer. Yes I have seen them successfully do that on TV, but there is nothing I will do purposely to put the deer "on-set". And finally, I will not beat myself up if the deer does go through their acrobatics, trying to turn themselves inside out when I shoot. Bow hunting is not an exact science. We can take a lot of bad things out of the equation, but in the end, there is a lot of luck involved.

You know what would be a perfect hunt? Go out and cut something like a hickory stave. Let it season for a year. Get out your best whittling knife and make a longbow. Make your own arrows. Oh, maybe to give yourself a fighting chance, a few purchased cedar shafts might be acceptable....lol..... or not. Knapp you own stone broadheads and then go out and get a deer (any deer) with your own home-made archery equipment. Man what an accomplishment that would be. My introduction to hunting occurred in almost that same way when I was about 11 years old. Well, it wasn't deer .... lol. But it was pigeons in the barn that I killed with my trusty self-made longbow and fletchless willow arrows. I always had an idea of doing it in a little grander fashion and taking a deer with self-made archery equipment. Never did it, but it sure is a neat idea. Now that would be a perfect deer season.

There's some pretty darn good shooting going on there.

It seems like the amount of hawks and owls have multiplied beyond belief. And yes, there has been a huge change in the some of the small game populations because of it. Hawks are deadly on rabbits, but I also wonder what effects they may have had on pheasants and grouse as well. It's a delicate balance to maintain between predators and prey, and probably can never be done flawlessly. But to give complete and total protection to a whole category of predators has to have some negative impacts somewhere. That is just plain promoting a predator at the cost of several prey species. That's not management.

No matter what the weapon, I would never criticize anyone for practicing with it. I spend a lot of time practicing with my rifle, and that is a deadly thing that pretty much shoots where I point it. Not only that but target practice with a crossbow would probably be fun even if you didn't hunt with it. But yes, a crossbow for small game would be interesting. But would the loss of bolts be a problem? Do they make flu-flu bolts? No seriously, when they start burying under the leaves, or wacking into trees, stones and logs, it seems like it could get a little expensive. How would you get around that problem? It's not like deer hunting where we already are willing to sacrifice one very expensive arrow for one deer. But a day's limit of squirrels? .....

Yeah, I think it is a difference in perspective based on longevity. Any comparisons I make are based on a time span that will reach 70 years in a few days. As described in a few of the replies here by those of advancing age, things have changed in a huge way regarding hunting. Years ago, there were no real animal rights organizations that anyone knew about. Teachers in school never spent a minute worrying about hunting, let alone waging constant campaigns against the activity. Hunting access was never a concern. Movie actors spent their time acting instead of donating money and time to animal rights campaigns. An awful lot of kids in the rural areas regularly ran trap-lines. Hunting was an undisputed way of life for most of us. Even more than that, it was an honorable pastime that people respected, as opposed to the villainous rep and the dirty looks that the activity now gets from the vast majority that do not participate today. Fast forward to today. Hunter numbers are on a down-slide. More and more people are fanatic about their vegan lifestyles to the point of becoming militant about it. I keep reading about home owners actively interfering with hunts, to the point where we had to pass a law prohibiting it. Children are being indoctrinated into anti hunting attitudes by schools and even their parents. The animal rights organizations are proliferating, well financed, and actually making some significant gains with legal victories and an eroding of public acceptance of hunting, trapping and fishing. The problem is that the evolution of anti-hunting cultural changes is happening at a very sneaky slow pace, and it does require a long life span to see the changes. It's a slow culture change. It's kind of like cooking a frog by slowly increasing the heat of the water ... lol. He never knows what is happening until it's too late. When you get the long-term picture, it is obvious that the threat against hunting has made huge advances, and when you really look close enough, it is not slowing, but rather it is accelerating.

There was some pretty good shooting going on in that video.