Meat Hunter

What most hunters do not seem to know is the PA instituted a reduce the deer herd program. Ask any PA or NY Biologist. This was done by harvesting a ton of does. They have taken 2.5 to 3 does for every buck for years. This has reduced the deer harvest. This is not what we are talking about for NY! The antler restrictions were to make better buck hunting as a benefit to hunters to try and make up for a lot less deer. Many hunters really like the Buck Hunting in PA. 65% support the AR program. One note is the PA is protecting 50% of Yearlings which is not enough. The NY AR area is protecting 85%. That is way better. And once again in NY ARs are not a deer reduction program. They are strictly to increase the age structure of the buck population.

Some folks hunt the suburbs, next to a wildlife refuge, on 1000+ private acres or deep in the Adirondacks and they may have better luck on older and there for bigger bucks. What WMU do you hunt? But this not the experience of the majority of hunters or what is taking place on a landscape scale in NY. In NY the age structure is approximate 60% yearling bucks 30% 2.5 year olds and 10% 3.5 year olds. Less than 1% of bucks survive to 4.5 years old. So statically no bucks over 3.5 exist, it is a very very small number. So lets try this from the other side why is it good stewardship, good management, good biology or supportive of a natural herd to remove the majority of bucks from the population at 1.5 years only and have such a young age structure in the buck segment of the population?

Do tell the benefits and how this is better for the Herd

Oh I think it would make a big difference to you. When everyone stops harvesting the yearlings it is amazing what type of bucks are seen and harvested. That is the thing when we all practice we all benefit. The little land owner, state land hunter and the huge farm with food plots. It really levels the playing field.

Of course that would work but NY hunters would not accept that program with out a lot of work and education and even then.... But we know that right now around 60% of New York hunters support antler restrictions to protect yearling bucks with out any education or work. So since we have a well supported proven program it’s just a matter of modifying the definition of a legal buck in the hunting regulations; Just a few words. In the current AR areas 77 to 90% of the hunters find continuing the program acceptable. So the Majority wants it, those who have it want to continue it and it is proven to work common sense! Sounds like a winner. TO the squirrel hunter- once your see the big bucks running by while squirrel hunting, I guarantee you will be back out deer hunting! BTW AS STATED BEFORE THERE WILL BE NO 3 POINT RULE FOR CENTRAL AND WESTERN NY (take note JOE SERVELLO)

Ok let’s clear some things up. Deer are a resource- A Limited Resource- so just because you want to kill more does not mean that the resource can provide/ survive that. NY has vastly different habitat so in 3A high peaks of the Catskills they take 1.2 bucks per sq mile and close to 0 does, and in western NY for example 8R, 9H and 9N the average buck take is 4.6 per sq mile and total deer take is 13.26 per SQ mile. Looks like almost 13 times more deer are taken. If the DEC issued more antlerless tags in 4S then you will have less deer in the future to hunt. Killing does results in less deer and in low productivity areas you will feel the over harvest for years. Ask some of the hunters in the Catskills where doe tags were doubled when the deer population was at 22 year lows and bad winter’s occurred. The reason that hunters see few adult bucks is because the majority of bucks in the state are killed as yearlings. Factor in the unreported yearlings kill and you can see that very few bucks survive to 2.5 +. If these deer are not harvested, they will grow up and get multiple points- you can check out the DEC harvest reports. Even though you may see bucks with a narrow spread THE VAST MAJORITY have a specific inch spread at a specific age. So by setting a point or spread standard the age at which bucks are harvested can be controlled. And genes will not be changed in a wild population by an antler restriction. First 50% of the genes come from the doe which is not affected by buck harvest. Second, hunters will not be removing all of the largest bucks, just some. And in practice a couple years in to an AR program the hunters will know that there are better adult bucks out there and will not harvest yearling bucks that just meet the standard. Remember in NY’s AR areas only 15% of the harvest is yearlings and that includes the yearling buck harvest from youth that are exempt from the program. Currently adult bucks are like unicorns in some areas of NY and as such many hunters feel they will never see one but rest assured when yearling bucks are protected you will see many and be very happy. I talk to those folks all the time and I am one. I am just a meat hunter and the average size of my buck has gone from 80 LBs dressed to 130 LBs and we have gotten some 165 lb 2.5 year olds. I can not wait to get a 3.5 as they are often 200 lbs. I now see bucks fighting which is really cool. And yes they sometimes have nicks and scrapes but nothing life threatening. Calling and rattleling work really well. And there are scrap lines and rubs that are being used by all deer. This is what a more natural deer herd is like and it is great. So in the outstanding areas western and central NY the potential is so incredibly high that is a travesty to not protected yearling bucks. It is like having a winning lottery ticket and letting it expire without ever cashing it in. For all you naysayers, 90% of you will love ARs after a couple years. It is kind of funny that you’re so opposed now but will really like it once it is in place. I have seen it with so many hunters. Trust common sense, sound science and the proven results in NY and in other states, for example Missouri and vastly improve your hunting starting now. We all have only limited time to hunt so the sooner we make this improvement the sooner we will have the best hunting of our lives.

Do not worry SteveB and WNY Buck Hunter- Your both right! 3 points is not appropriate in your area. That is why you need 4 points on a side and really a spread is the best way to go. Once you protect 67% or more of the yearling bucks hunters see the potential and learn what a yearling buck looks like. In the AR areas of NY only 15% of the harvest is yearlings better that the 3 point on one side rule would lead one to expect. Which one of you is going to lead the charge on the 4 point / spread for your area? Also we should protect as close to 100% of yearling bucks from harvest by adults. 50% is just not enough. They will all grow up if we let them go a year or two!

Never cut more than I third of the tree off a slow approach is better. You could spread out 50lb of dolomite lime. That provide calcium and changing the PH will release nutrients in the soil

I hunt in several places in NY and I am always happy with the meat but it does vary. I also try to age it all 10+ days. The aging makes it tender and also removes moisture so that when you fry it does not boil in its own juice which will make it tough. When I go to VA we do deer drives and then cut the deer up with in a day or so. My wife will say- this deer is from VA after the first bite and not want to eat it! Hunting with a bunch of groups- there are a lot of folks that do a very messy job gutting the deer and I expect it tastes bad when eaten. In VA the inside tender loins often smell bad as a result of gut shots and poor cleaning but they wash them off and it works- must be the high sulfur in the water. Generally you should never use water on deer because it spreads bacteria and adds unwanted moisture. Anyway bottom line, its manor of hunting, gutting and ageing that really control the final product. How it is cooked is important too. No professional chief would serve it anyway but rare.

The first and clearly illegal problem is that people have been feed this buck for years thereby making it tame. We all draw the line as to a fair and ethical hunt and I agree with everyone’s feelings on that. It is just like the hunting shows where the deer are look right at the hunters with anticipation of being feed not concerned at all with the hunters in the tree. That sure does not happen in my hunting area they see you in the tree and they are gone. The problem is that as we are called on to help manage deer in more urban areas this type of issue will come up. It is not so much hunting more wildlife control. One big issue is that big bucks are so rare that people feel compelled to go to extraordinary measures to harvest the few that are out there. We will never see the correct number of big bucks when most are killed at 1.5 years old. I agree that some harvested bucks never see the light of day. Many folks harvest a buck they know it is big but not how big. I have seen people not tell folks about the big one so it can happen. Not to mention people know where you hunt and if they know you have gotten a big one you will have a lot company hunting. The most disturbing thing is the anti hunting website for Cayuga Heights whoever. The miss information is scary. And the idea of introducing hormones in to wildlife populations is wrong on so many levels. First, the hormones given to the deer will end up in the food chain, every dead deer gets eaten by a lot of other animals. What about natural selection and survival of the fittest. Hormones are not a part of that natural process. I can not believe anyone would think that is a good idea. We should all put the same energy that is in this tread in addressing the issue of these extremely radical deer control measures.

all the info is at the DEC website- shows all the surveys. The DEC will be adding another 7 units in the next 6 months to the AR program including 3A so then the whole unit will be ARs

I have practiced Voluntary AR lots of times in 3A, buck walks by I let it go and then bang it’s dead on the next property. Every one knows this- the surveys even show that, which is why 70 % support AR in UNIT 3A. People want the same rules for all so that we all comply with the same standard. The statewide numbers are how hunters feel in general and then we have the region specific surveys like 3A and the other units being added to the AR program.

Mr. A Sportsmen, from what you say the 3 point rule will have little impact on your group since your lucky enough to find larger bucks as you say of the bucks your group harvested “14 out of 16 have had 3 points or more on one side. " So you will still be harvesting 3 points on a side. If your area is very low on deer shouldn’t you do every thing possible to strengthen the herd? 69.8% of the sportsmen who go afield in 3A support 3 points on a side. I have to agree- forever wild- needs to be forever wild and allow natural fires to create clearing and the resulting regeneration to improve wild life habitat.

looks like it was corrected by the author http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20110824/SPORTS/108240389/Dave-Henderson-outdoors-DEC-didn-t-report-wild-cougar?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cs Hunters favor antler restrictions David Hartman, President of the New York State Whitetail Management Coalition noted that a recent column asserting that the majority of New York deer hunters don't support mandatory antler restrictions was wrong. Sure enough, a check of last year's Cornell survey on deer management by Jody Enck showed 57.4 percent of the state's deer hunters think mandatory Antler Restrictions are a good idea. Also, while the New York State Conservation Council voted down all resolutions regarding antler restrictions last fall, "At the most recent NYSCC meeting in April, both the Big Game and Archery Committees voted in favor of recommending all resolutions supporting Antler Restrictions," Hartman said via email. "There were five in the Big Game Committee and 6 in the Archery Committee. "Also the bill sets no new legal precedent. Last session there were in the Assembly approximately 496 bill introduced to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 65 related to wildlife, hunting and fishing. Eight became law. It is hardly a new concept. It also does not change the section of the law that grants the DEC regulatory authority which is 11-0903."

This is a case of be careful what you read especially on the internet. That is a total misrepresentation of what the Survey found. The article falsely states "A Cornell study by Jody Enck of the school's Department of Natural Resources shows that mandatory antler restriction is generally opposed by sportsmen." This is incorrect. IN FACT the majority of NY hunters support mandatory antler restrictions according to the 2010 Cornell Survey. The correct numbers 57.4% of NY hunters think mandatory Antler Restrictions are a good idea see page 43 of 88 of the final 2010 survey. Table 35. http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/hdrudeer10.pdf Also 59% of NY hunters supported yearling buck protection in the 2006 Cornell survey. There are several areas that have even stronger support 63% to 69% for Yearling buck protection with Antler Restrictions. The highest number is from Central NY.

The below quote is so true older bucks mean younger buck can do more eating and less breeding and more bucks mean earlier breeding so larger healthier fawns going into the winter. Here is an article that supports the young bucks are eating not breeding the way it is supposed to be when yearling buck protection is implemented. http://www.eveningtribune.com/features/x1249727649/Are-antler-restrictions-the-wave-of-the-future-in-NYS "especially the younger bucks that are suppose to be spending there time and energy building body size so that they can reach their potential as mature bucks... 110 lb bucks are suppose to be breeding themselves to the point of exhaustion... it's hard enough for a mature 160-200 lb buck to make it through a tough winter after a heavy rutting season... when there is a good age structure younger bucks are more submissive and less agressive during breeding season.. allowing them time to grow stronger "

Most people comply with the game laws and with ARs people start to see much nicer bucks and try to harvest the big ones. Once there is a choice between little bucks and big bucks- hunters all go big.

Steve is right- a 4 point per side is needed in his area to protect yearling bucks- its good habitat. A spread would be better. I have the date from the DEC on what the spread should be in region 7 to protect yearling bucks.

Your assertion that national organizations/money are supporting AR are 100% false. Show me the facts? Who are you talking about and where is this money going from and to? If you’re referring to any 501 C 3 they have to disclose all financials so this made up assertion is easy to disprove. There are biological reasons for ARs. The DEC has said that. You can believe what you want but it does not change the fact that 100’s of biologists believe it is better to have a diverse age structure in the buck population. Without human interaction there would be 12 year old+ bucks walking around. Nature works the way it does for a reason. BTW I am sure you have seen presentations by and spoken with a DEC biologist in your area that explains the biology behind ARs. Don’t you believe your local expert? If you can get me the big chunk of land needed to have a successful voluntary program I am in. But since very few hunters are multi millionaires and can afford such a piece of land, let’s do something that helps the common man hunter, an AR program that applies to all adult hunters. I happen to be anti deer farming as well. That is why most hunters support ARs. All we need is age structure in our area to get larger bucks. We do not need food plots or expensive habit programs. ARs are not about antlers they are about increasing the age of the buck population, providing more meat per harvest and improving the hunting experience.

Wildlife management is not about “choice”. People all had the “choice” to kill what they wanted at the turn of the century and deer almost went extinct. That is why we have very strict hunting regulations to protect the resource and to equitably distribute a scarce resource among hunters. If we all chose to kill what we wanted there would be no deer. We do not have the “choice” to kill a doe with a gun during gun season unless we draw a doe tag. For that matter we cannot kill a buck with 2.5 inch antlers either. The only reason we are having this conversation is because the law defined a legal buck as one with one three inch antler in 1911. Had they define it as a buck with 8 total points, we would all be used to that and think nothing of not killing sub legal bucks. Just like we do not kill does when we don’t have a tag or bucks with less than 3 inch antlers. If we had a “choice” to go kill a 2.5 or 3.5 year old buck without AR we would not need ARs. The fact is if you take 60-80% of the bucks before they reach 1.5 years old there are very limited adults bucks to harvest. It not rocket science it’s just math.

G MAN, at first look, it sounds like if the majority wants to do AR then a voluntary program should have the same results. Not so. 67.1% support MANDATORY ANTLER RESTRICTIONS of 3 points on one side in the 7 units proposed for the expansion of ARs. This is across the board rule for all except youth. They were not asked to support a voluntary program or if they would comply with the same. As you may be aware, the DEC ran a voluntary AR program and it was unsuccessful do to lack of compliance. In addition 70-73% believe that if they pass on a small buck it will be killed by another hunter. What is your incentive to pass the buck voluntarily when you believe it will just be killed by the next guy? I know where I hunt there are at least 10 guys with in a few hundred acres hunting and I have let deer go by just to see them shot on the next property. Lot of small properties and lots of folks hunting cause this. That is why many areas are so effective at killing 70+ percent of yearlings. Even if the hunters that killed a buck last year all let them go, only 14% of the buck hunters are successful. That means that even if they passed 86% of the hunters need to pass too. The sheer numbers of hunters tell the tail in southeaster NY. We have the highest population densities by a magnitude of 15 to 1 in Region 1, 2 and 3 vs. the rest of the regions in the state. An across the board program that applies to all hunter equally is the way to have a successful yearling buck protection program with antler restrictions. This has been proven in the Mandatory AR areas of NY. And will be proven elsewhere in NY over time.

We would have to start with a point count system because that is what we have been doing for 100 years. Also not that many hunters have had a chance to see many adult bucks to get used to a spread, beam tip in front of the eye ect. That being said after a few years of AR a more tailored system may be a possibility. When we started ARs in Sullivan and Ulster counties the DEC had not seen enough adult bucks to collect data on what a correct spread would be to protect yearling bucks. With the exception of region 7, I do not think spread age correlation data has been gathered or studied.

Feel free to do the math yourself and check it. All the info is on the dec website. The dec shows this stuff at our local meetings. I am afraid to ask but what is the short story on you and nyb

Here is a Chart of the age of the Deer in the Statewide harvest vs the AR area in 2010

In a localized area it could be fewer hunters. One guy who hunted on a piece I hunt got emphysema and now is in Florida during hunting season. That changed the hunting since he is not walking around and not killing deer. Another place I hunt was logged, high graded and now it to open so the deer don’t avoid that area during hunting season.