buckman4c

Great information NFA. Thanks. Here's a summary of my winter scouting so far this year. I found a large flat on top of the mountain that's a little over a 1/4 mile wide from the north ridge line to the south ridge line. The flat is made of primarily pine, rhododendron and oaks. As you get closer to the ridge lines, the woods open up and are primarily oak. Both ridge lines also have high spots before dropping down to benches. Among the rhododendron I found (3) large rubs, larger than my calf but slightly smaller than my thigh. I'm 6' tall, 240 lbs. so I'm not "skinny" LOL. All the rubs have distinct antler scuffing or gouges well above the main rub. Each rub faces to the south, toward the agriculture except for one which is rubbed on both sides of the tree. I had never been in this specific area so I was speed scouting to get an idea for "lay of land" before diving in on more precise deer sign. With this in mind a couple other significant terrain features stuck out. The ridge runs SW/NE, I consider the ridge lines to be a predominately south facing and north facing although they aren't entirely. To the east end of the area, a fair sized hollow cuts in to the south facing slope. The rhododendron is in the hollow and runs up on to the flat. In the rhododendron flat are two pronounced high spots or knobs. The deer trails are pretty heavy running around the east side of the knobs and in the valleys between. At the west side of the knobs is an area I'm calling the "bridge". The knobs and valleys gradually rise to the highest point of the flat and blend together. Past the blending area to the west the land gradually goes downhill. The trails were pretty pronounced and coming from nearly all directions at the "bridge". In regards to the rubs they were basically in a line as if bucks or this buck would be traveling from the south ridge toward the north ridge. After finding the double sided rub, I walked to the north where I found an obvious high spot and bench on the north slope just below the top. In my opinion this is an ideal bedding location for a mature buck as is the south ridge line which has the same terrain features. Another words, a buck could lay on the high spot on either side of the ridge (north or south) and look either down on to the bench or down into the rhododendron thicket with most wind directions. Obviously, advantage mature buck with the vantage point coupled with wind/scenting protection. So, with a predominantly west/NW wind direction in the late fall, my first and most serious problem is accessing the area without giving myself away. Knowing I won't absolutely be the only person hunting along this ridge, I wrestle with being aggressive or passive and in the past I have almost always given in to being passive. Based on experience, it seems like every time I've tried being aggressive, I'm lucky if I see a single deer let alone a mature deer. Since I began bow hunting this 5k acre area in 2013, I have noticed that I do NOT see other hunters/stands on the side hill areas. So, a passive, aggressive approach in my mind would be to loop in to the area and take stands on the benches and wait for a buck to cruise the bench. Problem #1 with this is not getting there before a mature buck or any deer is bedded up on the high spot of the ridge line. My mind is also debating, the rubs, trails, overall deer sign is very concentrated within the rhododendron thicket. I very badly want to try slipping into the "bridge" spot where a bunch of trails converge. However, I would see this as being very aggressive because deer could approach that specific location with wind in the face from anywhere. Despite my very best efforts to conceal my scent, I have never gotten away with it when a mature buck was approaching from down wind. As a side note, I changed last year from Autumn blend cover scents to purely cover scents and since doing so I haven't been "winded". I haven't to my knowledge had a mature buck downwind since changing my scent control tactics so, I'm not sure if this will work any better. I just know younger bucks and doe haven't alerted to my presence since changing. To finish off this post, my scouting is LONG from over in this area. We haven't had snow for a couple weeks down here, so, backtracking isn't going to work. I didn't have time to decipher with limited snow patches last time I was in there to backtrack. I'll let everyone know what I find during my next trip. I'm hoping to find some kind of funnel in the area.

Thanks to everyone who has responded. Just to reiterate, I'm from Pa, I hunt public land in Pa and other states to include southern NY. I know NY isn't Pa but hunters are hunters and have certain approaches. The land area I'm talking about in the topic discussion is "almost" at my back door but I would be willing to share my approaches to other locations such as out of state. I consider a mature buck to be 3.5 or older in Pa. Targeting anything older is really shooting for the stars in the areas I hunt. The area I hunt HAS historically produced mature bucks of 140" plus on a yearly basis and I know of (3) which have hit the 170" mark.

AR has been beneficial here in Pennsylvania. But we're not NY. The result over the past ten years regarding buck harvest is: 50% plus of the harvest consist of 2.5 year old or older bucks with less than 50% consisting of 1.5 year old bucks. Before AR, there was a serious overharvest of 1.5 year old bucks at around 80% of the harvest and we killed an estimated 80% or more of all available bucks. We had a serious lack of age structure in our herd. Herd reduction and AR have combined to create closer buck to doe ratios and better age structure in the herd. Healthier deer. Trust me it's been a hot button debate since the beginning but its been more about herd reduction than AR. Hunters weren't seeing as many deer so complaints were pretty high. AR is well accepted here but ours is (3) points to one side for most of the state and (4) to a side in the western part of the state where bucks tend to grow larger, more points at earlier age. I understand NY is much different in regards to winter loss so I really have no idea what effect it would have on your herd. Just trying to pass along info. from a neighboring state that has AR in place.

Good input here. Thanks. I would also say those of you posting about watching videos etc. that this is good information as well. However, what I'm really looking for is "your" specific approach. Like hunting funnels or scouting a particular buck and how it is you go about finding funnels or really determining the patterns of a particular buck. I've tried hunting different "funnels", I have tried hunting "edges", I have tried scent control products with fall blend and without (explain results later), I've tried using a climbing stand to "hit and run" specific locations, well hidden hang on stands in place long before the season etc.. About the only thing I haven't "seemingly" tried is targeting a specific buck. Mainly because of my "soft" approach on public land bucks of trying to not disturb them. I usually base my hunting stand locations from previous years deer sign of rubs, scrapes, trails, beds etc.. I feel like I'm getting closer to sealing the deal but at the same time I feel like I'm missing something. Something obvious or small I'm not sure but a detail I'm overlooking in my pursuit. I will say this about myself and that is I move around a LOT!! In terms of learning the "whole" area I believe this is beneficial but at the same time I may not be giving a particular stand location enough attention during the season. I explain my moving around off by saying I want to locate several specific stand locations which will be more productive over a long period of time. The wives tail (true or not, I believe it) that mature bucks will replace another and use the area in similar fashion. To give more perspective, if this third "area" proves itself, I will have (3) distinct locations to hunt for mature bucks. As the crow fly's, it's a 2.5 mile stretch of ridge from each of the furthest stand areas with another somewhat in the middle. It's my strategy to hunt (3) completely different "core" areas for mature bucks in order to maximize potential from year to year. Again, any feedback on what I have just described is greatly appreciated.

Buckmaster, This has long been a strategy of mine and continues to this day. For example the first day of rifle season, I hike 1 1/2 hours up and over a mountain ridge to the other side and hunt a bench 1/4 the way down. I see plenty of deer and no hunters but haven't struck gold on a mature buck. My rifle area isn't quite as good for mature bucks but it has some around. The bow area I'm speaking of, again, I essentially hunt in the "middle" of access from others. It's a good mile (straight line) through some tuff terrain and habitat to reach from the north. From the south it's a little less than a mile but most of that pressure is contained on the private land and very few hunters come into the public land from that direction. Thanks for the input.

Thanks for the input. Here's a summary of what I've been doing since I started seriously bow hunting this area in 2013. My mission from the start was to scout and hunt as much ground as possible and eliminate areas with the ultimate goal of locating 3-5 solid stand "areas". I began by looking at topo and aerial maps to eliminate certain areas primarily because of other hunting pressure. I then began from the bottom up if you will. I found the north valley to be very attractive with plenty of deer sign, food, cover and water. However, closeness to the road and swirling wind quickly dampened my spirits. In the second year I started concentrating on the north side hill and looking for "funnels". What's rather unique about this area is the clear cuts run up to the base of the side hill. The wooded side hill is pretty steep in most areas and it contains rock formations. During the second year I sat in stands between rock formations or above small benches 1/2 way to 3/4 the way up the ridge. I liked this set up and did see a couple mature bucks chasing doe but I kept bumping deer trying to get down into these spots. Starting the third year I began hunting the top of the ridge, specifically in a saddle which had a rock formation on the north slope which funneled deer up the mountain. This stand was somewhat productive in that I saw deer on almost every sit but no mature bucks. I did a little bouncing around as well that year along the top and late in the season I missed a nice mature buck chasing a doe out of a rhododendron thicket. I also found another spot on a point side hill. Imagine a hollow cutting into the south ridge line and then branching toward the east, This secondary hollow essentially cuts the mountain in half the long way creating a point. I hunted the north side of this about 200 yards from the end of the point. I found a bedding area on top of the point and followed a main trail to intersecting trails on the north slope and set up there. I had two encounters with mature buck but one only sported (4) total points. We have a (3) point rule Antler Restriction in which one side must have three points to be legal. The other mature buck actually bedded about 80 yards above me on a thick sloping bench and left the area without offering much more than a glimpse. This spot is thick with rhododendron and pine. I really like this spot but scent control must be optimized because of occasional wind swirl. Last year, I had limited time to hunt but through scouting and knowing of a particularly very large buck I found a large bench along the north ridge to hunt. I only hunted (3) times in early November but I saw a bunch of deer including (1) mature buck (not the one I was after but mature anyhow). Unfortunately, he didn't offer a shot. What I really liked about this stand was the deer activity was very consistent. They would approach from the upwind side and work toward my stand which is hidden behind a pine. They would then turn up or down the mountain, usually within shooting distance. I was not busted one time in this stand. I think this is long enough and gives you somewhat an idea of how I've been breaking down this hunting area. In my next post I'll bring you up to speed on my current scouting and look for feedback on how to approach yet another area I found.

Let me start by saying I completely understand hunting for mature bucks isn't for everyone. This topic is intended to get feedback from hunters who have consistently killed mature bucks on public land or private land which is hunted heavily. I'm from Pennsylvania but have hunted other states as well. I have hunted deer in New York, Virginia and Mississippi. I have been hunting for 36 years and although well seasoned have only killed one mature buck. I have "played" the waiting game off and on since 1992. What I mean by this is, I have passed on immature bucks for the most part since that time but on occasion for whatever reason I have killed bucks since that time. Here's the idea: 1993 until 1996 when I killed a buck, 1997-2004 when I killed (2) bucks, 2005-2009, 2010 to 2012 and 2013 to current day. As you can see I have been fairly patient in my quest to kill a mature buck. The year I shot (2) bucks is when I killed my only mature buck and it happened to be in Virginia. All of the Pa bucks were 2.5 year old eight pointers. I have had a few opportunities at mature bucks but just haven't been able to close the deal. With winter scouting in full swing I'm looking for ideas on tactics used by you savvy big buck killers to possibly improve my ability to see more of the mature bucks and to put a few on the ground. I will share with you some of the approaches and tactics I'm currently using. 2017 will be my fifth year of trying to put it all together. Any feedback is appreciated and let me add so it doesn't become the topic of discussion, there ARE mature bucks in the area I'm hunting. To further assist the process, the area I hunt is public land and what would be described as "Ridge and Valley". Imagine a tall ridge line with valleys to either side. The valley to the south has agriculture while the valley to the north has clear cuts and creek bottom thicket. The area is 5k acres in size. I do NOT have access to the south valley agriculture which is all private and owners who hunt themselves do not allow access. I can hunt the ridge top and to the north. I generally concentrate my efforts along the ridge top, essentially between the clear cuts in the north valley and the agriculture in the south valley. The ridge top is heavily forested with mature timber, acorn producing oaks etc.. There are also areas of rhododendron and pine stands. So, what tactics work for you on mature bucks??

Late Sept. over the counter bow hunt for Elk in Colorado (again). During the return trip home stopping in Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio for whitetails hunts. All do it yourself style hunts on public land. I love the challenge of figuring things out on my own and the extra challenge of getting it done on public ground. Absolutely a dream hunt considering the locations and the fact I would be gone for a good month a half. I'm sure the wife won't mind. LOL On a more serious note, I just flat out love whitetail hunting. Any time anywhere. I've hunted Pa (home State), Maine, Ny, Virginia and Mississippi. I've also planned out trips for Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, North Carolina and every year I'll be chasing them in southwest New York.

Give it time. The dynamics of hunting are changing pretty quickly and not necessarily for the better. Our numbers are dwindling and as our numbers dwindle efforts to maintain deer populations or reduce them in needed locations becomes increasingly more difficult. I'm not sure what methods Ny uses in determining an acceptable harvest rate but here in Pa it goes beyond the resources (deer and habitat). There's also weight given to hunters and citizens input. With that said, most of Pa went from a herd reduction plan to a maintaining plan to current day herd expansion plan. Eventually hunter numbers will dwindle in states like Ny and Pa to the point where longer seasons and more tags are needed to maintain a balance between habitat and wildlife. Although your Upper State with the winters and such may never see liberal changes. If you look at States with good numbers of whitetails but far fewer hunters than we have, their seasons are in many instances much, much longer and WAY more liberal. As was also mentioned, many of these States also do not contend with winter loss like States in the Northeast. Liberal changes may be slow to come but eventually I think we will see them. Whoever mentioned Mississippi, man is that crazy down there. I hunted there for first time this year. Started our hunt on New Years Eve day and it was 75 degrees. It cooled by the end of the week but there rules are super liberal. A deer a day, up to (3) bucks and (5) does. Baiting permitted so long as you can't see it from the stand. They also do things by the "honor" system. No tags to attach on the deer after harvest. They also IMO, have a "weird" Antler Restriction, 10" inside spread or 13" main beam. Made judging bucks pretty difficult especially when you had mere seconds to see and decide. Three of us killed (7) deer in four good days of hunting. We had (3) days of bad weather. Very, very different down there. The woods/pine stands were super thick where I was hunting. I was setting up on logging roads or open lanes made by mowing between sections of pine. There was no going in after them. That's part of why they can use dogs down there. Good case in point when comparing other states. They don't have winter kill so the herd control is almost entirely hunter related.

Thanks for the replies. That's what I thought but wanted to confirm.

I've been fortunate to have very few scary moments while hunting in 35 years but this past season made me pucker. My son and I were riding our ATV's in to our bow hunting area when I saw a flashlight up ahead on the trail. I slowed and waited for my son to crest the hill. Once he caught up we continued on and I noticed the flashlight had moved to the side of the trail. As we approached and passed the other hunter, I look over and he has a hand gun leveled off at us as we ride by. Thought the guy was going to shoot me in the back. I also carry a sidearm while hunting and initially, for a very brief second, thought of going for my gun. The move would have added risk to the situation as the handgun was on my "throttle" side which would have slowed the quad which was already only going about 5 mph and it was somewhat buried under my hunting coat anyway. Additionally and more importantly, my son was behind me and I didn't want to escalate an already risky situation by putting him in the midst of a gun battle. I butt puckered up the trail a little bit and called the local police about what happened. They found the old fella and it became clear he's in the early stages of dementia. I didn't pursue charges and the old fella is banned from setting foot on the property.

Questions concerning the process for getting doe permits. #1. According to what I found, the application process starts in August and ends in October?? #2. Also according to what I found, as a non-resident hunter I stand a ZERO chance of getting a doe tag for Unit 9W?? If anyone knows for sure the answer to these questions, I will appreciate a response. I know it's early in the year to be asking questions like this but I make plans well in advance for out of state hunts.

Speaking from experience (in Pa) these type of meetings can be very educational and informative. I suggest an open mind about what may be proposed for future management decisions. Personally, I'm an advocate for management decisions based on improving the habitat for future generations of hunters and deer/wildlife. I like ideals which promote increased opportunity for hunters that will at the same time benefit habitat and deer. Much of the problem with this opinion or any other opinion is taking into account the total picture. Another words, NY State is a big, diverse State with varying habitat and deer conditions. It would be difficult at best to have a single plan for the entire State. Hopefully, the DEC has the resources necessary to properly determine plans which would best fit each area within the State. If you want more ideas on deer management check out the Pa Game Commission website under "deer". There's a slew of information on different aspects of deer management utilized today and what has been done in the past. The more educated you are about the subject at hand will help in presenting your opinion to DEC. You will certainly be more respected by them and those in the crowd for having done your homework. Good Luck!!

They removed the age requirement in Pa and left it in the hands of the parent. All in all it's been a good thing for hunting here in Pa. I haven't heard many complaints. I didn't read the NY proposal but in an earlier post many of the requirements were referenced. There very similar to the laws in Pa, however, one thing I know for sure here in Pa is this: For any mentor youth hunter under the age of 12, the parent, guardian etc. must carry the weapon for the youth while moving. Once you are in a stationary position, the mentor youth may handle the weapon. When a youth reach's 12 years of age, they must complete the hunter safety course and have a youth license. When they are 12, they can handle the weapon during the entire hunt but must be within arms length of the mentor at all times. NY is behind the eight ball on this law along with a "Right to hunt". JMO

BK, Another point I'll make. When talking about points and future quality hunts there are some units which continue to point climb. There are hunts for Elk and Mule Deer which take 20+ points to get a tag. That's why buying now and every year is so important. If you want to hunt the very best units during the "prime" hunting period for that particular animal, it will take you 20 plus years!! Essentially a once or maybe twice in a lifetime experience. Our group is doing something a little different. Buying enough points for quality hunts in zones with less than 20 points. Once we use the points we are considering buying just enough points for bow or muzzleloader hunts in the same unit/s. Basically increasing our hunts to the point where we could hunt quality units just about every year. The downside if there is one, we would be hunting during the season when trophy animals are most difficult to kill.

BK, I have points for Elk (10) and Mule Deer (11), however, my brother in-law and I will be doing an OTC hunt this year. We already took care of receiving our tags and points. All of our hunts are DIY style. While we're bow hunting, my father in-law and a friend of his will be rifle bear hunting in a neighboring (Target) unit. This hunt is actually a combined hunt/scout trip for future quality Elk and Mule deer hunts. This will "only" be my third trip. Absolutely love it our there and was very fortunate to kill a bull on my second trip. During both of my trips, we hunted near Craig for the second rifle season in a zero point zone. My in-laws go on average every other year. We have following approach to hunting Colorado: #1. Most important, get points every year!! to build toward future hunts in higher quality zones. #2. Scout, do your research on quality zones for animal you want to pursue to gauge how many years it may take. Then, if you want to hunt while accumulating points find those which allow you to get points and a tag (second choice or OTC). This way you continue building points and hunt. We prefer to hunt a zone next to or in the zone of the future quality Elk/Mule deer hunts. Then, we scout with boots on the ground in the future targeted zone. I say we, but it's my father in-law and brother in-law up to this point who have done most of the homework. #3. Have fun but be prepared. One hunt was "hot", 70's in October while the next trip was "cold", single digits at night along with 22" of snow. You never know what to expect!! I don't expect snow in Sep. for the bow hunt but in the Colorado mountains, anything is possible.

Doc, I'm used to all the bickering, never said I wasn't. Just making a point that bickering among ourselves accomplishes nothing more than weakness in solidarity. With the special interest groups that outnumber us considerably, we should concern ourselves more with protecting our sport. Increased opportunity for hunters to pursue our number one animal "should" be a no brainer when it comes to supporting one another. It will not surprise me if muzzleloader and rifle seasons are eventually included during or around the rut in Pa or any other State that doesn't right now. I would vote for it, join in on the expanded opportunity, put my bow away and pull out the muzzy or rifle. Why fight it when you can participate like anyone else?? I'll answer that....because rifle hunters are slobs, because muzzleloader hunters aren't as accurate, because deer will be slaughtered, because more "trophy" bucks will be killed, etc. etc.. What hunters who don't like something are really saying is "hunters are an irresponsible and selfish group". Well isn't that fantastic ammunition for outsiders who hate our sport? Look, I won't argue there's a right way and a wrong way to conduct business if you will. In Pa, we are fortunate to have a game commission which is solely responsible for managing wildlife. If the game commission (other entity in other States) can show that expanded opportunity won't negatively impact the wildlife we pursue than I see no reason why additional seasons or methods can't be included. We've (Pa) seen this in action concerning deer specifically. Since 2001, Pa has done some fairly radical things with seasons and bag limits. However, they have also made adjustments along the way to meet certain levels of sustainability. Not everyone agrees in totality and this is expected but overall there has been more opportunity through method and seasons which isn't what hunters really disagree with. Hunters in Pa, for the most part, disagree more about how many doe they think are being killed inparticular areas.

BKhunter, Good luck on your quest. Prior posts have good suggestions. Doing your homework is very important. Don't leave out talking to Elk Biologists or game wardens either. Another thing I would consider is if you have never hunted at higher elevations is selecting an area in which you can get down. Say 8k feet or so. I know this sounds low when talking about Colorado but we have found that 8-9k feet is comfortable for camp elevation. Some guys can handle higher elevations but if you have never done this before I would suggest starting at lower elevations. It would be ok to hunt an area where elevation increases above 10k so you can try it out and see how your body reacts to this condition. Being in good shape will benefit you tremendously and elevation may not effect you like some. The last thing I would absolutely suggest is taking someone with you. I'm not saying you can't handle a hunt like this alone but it's challenging enough even when you do have company. My brother in-law and I are also doing a bow hunt this year during the last week of archery season after the muzzleloader season. We hope to hear some bugling to get into some bulls.

I don't understand all the fuss. Allowing the use of a crossbow during the archery season isn't a big deal. We've had it for years in Pa. I've experienced ZERO negative impact from guys using a crossbow during bow season. It's just another method for hunters to use. Me personally, if it were my home hunting State, I would ask that crossbow hunters be allowed to hunt the entire bow season anywhere in the State, not just a certain time frame or certain zone. I never understand why fellow hunters stand against those who prefer another method of hunting. In Pa over the years and to this day, I hear bickering between gun hunters and bow hunters. It's childish and ridiculous. Hunters as a whole should support increased methods and seasons. Our numbers are slowly but surely dwindling so there really is no time for bickering against one another.

Jaeger, Good opportunity to scout if nothing else. If you have desire to hunt Arizona in the future I would research the in's and out's of their point/draw system and start planning ahead. Look at what it is exactly you want to do (Elk, Deer etc.), figure out what zone/s are attainable for the hunt you desire. If it's a DIY style hunt, you must do all the homework. If your looking for a future hunt with an outfitter, you should contact them and inquire the process to secure the best hunt for yourself. Our group hunts Colorado DIY style. It's taken many years of hunting and research to narrow down specific quality hunts based on their point system. A good example of this is: We found a zone which is "attainable" for our group (based on our ages and number of points we have) for future Elk and Mule Deer hunts in a better than average zone. But, instead of just diving in on these hunts, we use other hunts to scout/hunt. This year my father in-law and his friend are bear hunting (Sep) in the zone we targeted for Elk and Mule deer. Meanwhile, my brother in-law and I will be bow hunting Elk (same time) in the neighboring zone. All of us will be scouting the targeted zone for Elk and Mule deer while involved in the other hunts. Like I said it's a process and one which doesn't guarantee success but certainly ups the odds.

G-Man, I did not know that. It's unfortunate and something we(hunters) in Pa have been fighting against happening here for some time. So far so good.

I wouldn't claim to know all of the seasons and regs in NY but I can relate what Pa has done over the years. First of all access is a problem in every State but Pa has incorporated some programs which get hunters on to private land. There called CO-OPS. Essentially a land owner is compensated for allowing hunters on their property. It has opened many areas to hunting. Secondly, expanded opportunities for doe harvesting. Some time ago AR was implemented statewide along with an aggressive approach to harvesting more doe. When the program began, doe tags were "allocated" (you had to apply) but the number was relatively high in most areas of the State. Most hunters who applied in a timely fashion received (1) doe tag and in some areas you could get (2) or more. Then what they did was allowed hunters to harvest a doe during any season, all season long to include rifle season. Initially this program was very well accepted by hunters because after a couple of seasons they began seeing and harvesting larger bucks. However, much controversy followed when deer sightings on a whole declined because of the aggressive doe harvesting. Thirdly, crossbow was permitted in Pa a few years back and archery participation increased as did the kill. As would be expected with more hunters you will kill more deer. It wasn't however aimed specifically for killing more doe but as another means for hunters to hunt. I use a crossbow during our late muzzleloader (flintlock only) season when facing inclement weather. The crossbow has less effective range than a muzzleloader but is clearly more reliable in bad weather than the finicky flintlock. Back to the second point- Currently, the Game Commission has reduced opportunities in rifle season to harvest a doe (fewer days in rifle season for doe in most management areas). This has been contrary to recommendations made by Biologist who based their pop. control on the number of tags issued for each unit to kill (1) doe and the goals of the unit. Unfortunately, as anywhere politics often interfere. What we do have in Pa for "high" deer population areas like around Philly and Pitt. is "special" regulation areas. These areas are to address overpopulation in our more human populated areas with expanded opportunities for hunters. Typically longer seasons with anything but a rifle (safety issue). They also permit baiting in these locations. We also have a muzzleloader (in-line or flintlock) doe ONLY season in mid-October and a "Senior/Junior" rifle hunt for a few days in October for doe ONLY across the State. Again expanded opportunity for harvesting of doe. The impact on overall populations from these hunts is very low. We also have what is called a DMAP doe tag. These are issued to private land owners by acreage and allows them to make their own decision on how populations are controlled. Our State Forests are regulated by DCNR and they will also issue DMAP tags for very specific locations on their properties to public land hunters to harvest a doe during any season. Lastly, and most interestingly. Penn State University is currently monitoring (radio collared) deer in several study areas. One part of the study is survival rates of those deer. What I find most interesting is the harvest rate by hunters is VERY low. Most of the deer thus far have died by other means than by the hands of hunters. Another interesting point is, the study area with "broken" terrain has a higher kill rate by hunters than our big woods areas. Although the kill rate is still rather low, this tells me deer are more likely to be found and killed in locations that have more obvious food sources available, less wooded acreage to hide and more hunting pressure. The unfortunate side of this study is it clearly shows the ability of deer to avoid us and our inability to kill them. They don't go "nocturnal" as many believe which makes it even more difficult to swallow. In closing, if a State wanted to reduce a doe population, the best answer based on what I've seen to this point is expanded opportunity for hunters and an accepted mentality by hunters that killing doe is just as important as killing a buck. Controlling populations involves killing both sexes but emphasis should be on females. I will admit NY is very different in many ways from Pa but probably the most difficult thing to predict is winter weather and the deer kill that follows. We don't have anywhere near the impact of winter kill as you do in NY. I imagine management decisions would be much more difficult to make with this in mind.

I recently joined HuntingNY. com and I've been receiving helpful information. I also said in my introduction I would be willing to share information about Pennsylvania. I'm not sure about everything NY has been doing from a deer study perspective but Pa has embarked on some remarkable studies. If this information has already been shared, I suppose you can disregard. In conjunction with Penn State University, the Pa Game Commission has conducted several studies regarding Whitetail Deer. I have been following the PSU blog since the beginning and have used a lot of the information for hunting purposes. Additionally, it has certainly changed my perspective about many things concerning deer. What I enjoy most about the blog is their following of deer movements. Enjoy the reading. Google search: Deer-Forest Study- Penn State University then select "The Deer-Forest Blog"

Looking for some useful feedback. So, we have decided to hunt the second day (Sunday) of rifle deer/bear season in New York while at bear camp in Potter County, Pa. Our camp is located about 40 minutes south of Olean. While looking at topo/road/aerial maps, I've found several public land areas within reasonable driving distance. I only have, as of right now, (1) full day of boots on the ground scouting available. With that said, I'm looking for some feedback on Cattaragaus County public land. I'm not asking anyone to "give up" their specific hunting location. Rather, I'm looking for information on overall hunting pressure as it relates to the land area, in general hunting success for deer and bear. In particular, I'm interested in knowing if any certain location may be more productive for bear hunting. We would like to hunt good area for deer but prefer a better location to kill a bear. We believe the deer would also be found in the same area. So, these are the locations I've found which are within our driving distance and contain enough land area to suit: #1. Nine Mile Creek State Forest (combined with) Windfall Creek State Forest #2. McCarty Hill S.F. (combined with) Rock City S.F. #3. Golden Hill S.F. (combined with) Raecher Hill S.F. I would certainly appreciate any feedback on these locations. I know it's considerable land base to consider but starting big and narrowing down the choice is my preferred method when hunting out of State. Thankfully, I have many choices to consider. NY and PA have an abundance of public land which is good for us (hunters).

Thanks everyone for your replies. Since my original post I was away soaking in the sun on the golf courses of Myrtle Beach and why I haven't responded. I enjoyed reading your varying responses. I'll address them best I can: #1. I enjoy hunting no matter where I can hunt. NY just so happens to have Sunday hunting. Something Pa needs to change. And, I'm in Potter Co. (Pa) at the same time for our bear season when your rifle season starts. With that said, hunting public land in Pa during rifle season is no picnic either but after 34 years of doing so, I have a pretty good idea on how to get it done. I'm not at all discouraged by the "Orange Army". IMO, a hunt on Sunday after the opener will require some pressure to get the game moving anyway. I(we) might as well join the party. #2. I scout anywhere I hunt whether it's by using the PC to view maps or boots on the ground. I'll be scouting Cattaraugus Co. public land in April for at least a day. I've already pre-scouted by viewing maps. #3. I'm glad to hear driving is allowed. Here in Pa, we drive for Bear. It's the best way to get them moving. We also take one day during the second week of deer rifle season for drives. We are a methodical group who "silently" slip through the woods pushing deer or bear by using the wind to our advantage. The only time you will hear us is if we get into heavy cover where safety is priority number one. Then it's an occasional hoot or holler so we can locate one another and stay in line. Drives often benefit other hunters as well. Inevitably, every year stand hunters not in our group shoot deer we push out of the drives. (Perfect example): The last buck I shot was while we were setting up a drive. I was a stander and while walking in to my spot a group of Amish came through doing a drive. They walked past us (standers) and continued toward our drivers. They were no sooner out of sight when a half rack six point came slipping back through and I dropped him. Our drivers then came through and pushed some doe past another stander who killed one. Those two drives in opposite directions had deer running all over the place. Not the safest thing in the world but if everyone is mindful of their safety, there aren't any issues. #4. I'm glad someone brought it up. Baiting is only allowed in our special regulation areas (around Philly and Pitt). We had not intentions of baiting but I'm glad someone let us know it's illegal. As well as the communication law, we also have that in Pa. Both are non-issues for our group. Again thanks for the feedback.