Feeding Wildlife

[Doc]

I still say..$$$ to tonnage...I'd rather plant ground than spend 9-15 dollars a bag to feed and keep deer in the area...cheaper  and not feeding greedy raccoons and crow more than the turkey...rabbits  game birds and deer...for the price of 2 bags of corn...I can plant an apple tree and down the road get bushels of apple on the ground...Plus  have more fun doing it...

The cost issue is an important one. I'm sure there a lot of people who think feeding is fun and a great way to save deer until they find out just how expensive it can be and then they just abruptly stop.

 

I remember a story a decade or two ago about some little old lady in the Adirondacks who loved to feed her beautiful deer because she just simply liked to see them. It all seemed like a great idea until she found out that her fixed income couldn't withstand feeding this ever growing herd of new dependents. When the cash ran out, so did the feed. Well, guess what ..... she had conditioned the deer to pick up their free meal at her yard, and they remained congregated there for the remainder of the winter. It turned out to be an artificially created deer yard. By spring, the surrounding habitat had been totally destroyed through intense over-browsing and several deer were lost to starvation as a result of her "act of kindness". Sometimes the most innocent of do-gooder activities can wind up destroying far more animals than it saves.

[growalot]

actually not...for the deer would know way before fall/winter that there is no food source.....as with any seasonal/ biannual mast crop  changing there movements accordingly....

[thphm]

I still say..$$$ to tonnage...I'd rather plant ground than spend 9-15 dollars a bag to feed and keep deer in the area...cheaper  and not feeding greedy raccoons and crow more than the turkey...rabbits  game birds and deer...for the price of 2 bags of corn...I can plant an apple tree and down the road get bushels of apple on the ground...Plus  have more fun doing it...

This is the way to feed them,And as for not planting one year,the answer is to go to the DEC WEBSITE And it tells you what to plant to keep them around.

the problem is that the people in this country are just getting too lazy to go out and prepare and plant things, they find it easier to buy a block,bag or liquid to put on the ground and watch the deer eat it.

As far as the deer hitting the apple grove,Where ever you go this time of the year that is what you will see them eating.And they have been doing it a lot around here the last few weeks.

[Hardcore]

I agree with growalot on the food plots as opposed to supplemental feeding. With that said it requires a special set of circumstances to have good plots...you need cleared land, access to equipment, know how, the time and money to invest.

I lived in NC where baiting is allowed on Private land only....there is nothing detrimental to the herd as a result, despite the detractors....CWD ,EHD conspiracy theorists.

Baiting has been legal for as long as I know...this is not some magical feed pile that the deer just show up to and commit suicide. Many get the idea that have a corn pile(that's what us rednecks call them) and the deer will just come stand in it and wait for you to harvest. The supplemental food source is just like any other natural food source in the respect that they will come to it. They also abandon them when acorns start dropping or a food plot has come alive. Killing a big buck on a corn pile is a rare event....it happens but typically the daytime visitors are does and small bucks. I mainly used them starting before bow season through the end of the season to condition the deer to the food source and keep the does visiting during and after the rut. Doing this is a lot time,$$$ & effort....just for catching an opportunity @ a shooter buck passing through either scent checking or trailing a doe....I do love it for the trail cams though....cause big boys will visit @ night and you get a buck inventory in the vicinity....ok so all that wind bag info to say I have no issue with baiting

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Believe it or not, the deer in my area leave my high dollar food when it gets bad in the hard part of winter and go to the thickest spruce forest they can find on Ft Drum. I think thats where many are thinking wrong when it comes to feeding deer. Up on the Tug Hill the deer live in 6 to 8 feet of snow. They cant get to corn or any other food plots because the snows to deep.So their stomach acid changes so they can eat woody bark and such and live off it. Thats why when you start dumping corn and alfalfa in front of a deer in a deer yard in the middle of winter can starve with a full stomach.

 But now the deer say down near Letchworth and areas where alot of you guys live you dont get so much so for a long period where the deer cant paw down to a food plot or corn field so their body acids do not change as much and you could save a herd by feeding them if it got real bad in the middle of winter!

[mike rossi]

Up near Fort Drum  some starvation toward very late winter and spring  goes with the territory... But in other less harsh regions thee cause of starvation is the practice of feeding...

[mike rossi]

,

So true and it was on track untill you made a statement against someones post and it seems that you still want to bold print a bunch of outdated,unproven cwd material.  I guess testimony,under oath, in a court of law from the countries top cwd researcher telling you just what he has found cwd to be and not to be is not good enough for you. That research shows that there is no proof and never has been that cwd can be spread by any body fluids. The only negitive of feeding wild deer, that have no food is that its 100% going to die if you dont and the ones that know what they are doing and know the slim chance a deer catching anything that will kill it before a hunter,car or dog will, Will continue to feed their deer with great results! 

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) of cervids is a prion disease distinguished by its high level of transmissibility, wherein bodily fluids and excretions are thought to play an important role.(Quote)

Your word thought stands out now to be we have shown tests where this has been proven to not play an important role as of yet.

 

Oh thanks, you telling me when I am on and off track is a real honor... Did you miss this part of what I posted above about two years? Here it is (again), below in italics and underlined....

 

Detection of subclinical infection in deer orally exposed to urine and feces (1) suggests that a prolonged subclinical state can exist such that observation periods in excess of two years may be needed to detect CWD infection,

 

Did ya read the part that said two years? I suspect these findings were established  after the court hearing you posted. If they were not published after the court hearing, somebody wasn't keeping themselves updated, which I seriously doubt is the case. If you had the grasp you think you do, you would have never posted a court decision or proceeding to support your position in the first place...

 

You are quite the character. Doc worded this post as if he had a question. I answered the post under that context. He got my answer, your answer, and the answers of others. Don't go on with this crap telling me to tell the class and all that.

[mike rossi]

Tamguney is the researcher referred to in the court transcript you posted. The link below contains a list of Tamguney's publication record. This record indicates that the date of his last published research was 2009. The research  I referred to was July 2011.

 

Tamguney does have some research in progress about the horizontal transmission of prion diseases. Show me the paper where Tamguney indicates feeding deer is not a factor in CWD transmission....

 

http://prusinerlab.ucsf.edu/pdfs/CV_ErdemTamguney.pdf

 

[Doc]

I agree with growalot on the food plots as opposed to supplemental feeding. With that said it requires a special set of circumstances to have good plots...you need cleared land, access to equipment, know how, the time and money to invest.

I lived in NC where baiting is allowed on Private land only....there is nothing detrimental to the herd as a result, despite the detractors....CWD ,EHD conspiracy theorists.

Baiting has been legal for as long as I know...this is not some magical feed pile that the deer just show up to and commit suicide. Many get the idea that have a corn pile(that's what us rednecks call them) and the deer will just come stand in it and wait for you to harvest. The supplemental food source is just like any other natural food source in the respect that they will come to it. They also abandon them when acorns start dropping or a food plot has come alive. Killing a big buck on a corn pile is a rare event....it happens but typically the daytime visitors are does and small bucks. I mainly used them starting before bow season through the end of the season to condition the deer to the food source and keep the does visiting during and after the rut. Doing this is a lot time,$$$ & effort....just for catching an opportunity @ a shooter buck passing through either scent checking or trailing a doe....I do love it for the trail cams though....cause big boys will visit @ night and you get a buck inventory in the vicinity....ok so all that wind bag info to say I have no issue with baiting

First of all, I was unable to find any research that specifically evaluates the repercussions of baiting/feeding on NC deer herds. I certainly could have missed it, so if you have any credible sources of such information, a link would be appreciated.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure how accurate it is to compare such things between two states of completely different climates and disease profiles.

 

And third, your defense of baiting arguments are probably better done in a new separate thread rather than diverting this one.

[mike rossi]

Now back to your little story that you say it is ok to feed cervids outside of harsh areas like Tug Hill... Did you even think about where this elk was located? It was Bradford County , Pennsylvania, which is much less harsh than Lewis County, NY. And an bull elk is about the size of a horse  - therefore probably much hardier in deep snow and cold than a whitetail. The habitat in Bradford county also has much more natural food and even farmland than the tug hill region. So why did this elk starve if feeding is ok outside of tug hill?

 

The following is from Pennsylvania Game Commission:

 

A trophy bull elk was found dead earlier this month on Pennsylvania’s elk range, the apparent victim of winter wildlife feeding, which is illegal for elk.

Test ...results returned last week cited rumen acidosis as causing the death of the 6- by 7-point bull. The disorder is linked to supplemental feeding by humans.

Rumen acidosis is brought on by the sudden introduction of carbohydrates, usually grain and often corn, to an animal’s diet.

An elk’s diet is made up mostly of grasses and other soft vegetation. When the bull suddenly overloaded on corn, its body produced too much lactic acid in an attempt to digest this new food, causing its death.

 

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Well no sh!t sherlock. Is there anywhere is your little story that says if that elk was already half starved to death before anyone steped in to help. You are so full of it if you think for one second that deer cant be fed all winter long an survive just fine.  Have had lots of practice and see it done everyday but you live in your little fantasy world while the rest of us on the hill save our deer!

 

 

As far as your cwd post. I showed you under oath the words straight out of a court room from one of, if not the best when it comes to cwd, whom's words may indeed cost the taxpayers of Iowa millions of dollars in lawsuits from the farms that they killed animals on and locked down their property over cwd. Period.  You want to believe all the crap the dec and Dept of Ag blows up your skirt, you have at it. 

You say you believe them when they say it can be passed by all these fluids, Well show we one place in the over 40-50-60 years that they have been looking at cwd where cwd has been found in that body fluid.  With all the knowledge and background you seem to think you have, that should not be a tough one for ya!!!!!

Now back to your little story that you say it is ok to feed cervids outside of harsh areas like Tug Hill... Did you even think about where this elk was located? It was Bradford County , Pennsylvania, which is much less harsh than Lewis County, NY. And an bull elk is about the size of a horse  - therefore probably much hardier in deep snow and cold than a whitetail. The habitat in Bradford county also has much more natural food and even farmland than the tug hill region. So why did this elk starve if feeding is ok outside of tug hill?

 

The following is from Pennsylvania Game Commission:

 

A trophy bull elk was found dead earlier this month on Pennsylvania’s elk range, the apparent victim of winter wildlife feeding, which is illegal for elk.

Test ...results returned last week cited rumen acidosis as causing the death of the 6- by 7-point bull. The disorder is linked to supplemental feeding by humans.

Rumen acidosis is brought on by the sudden introduction of carbohydrates, usually grain and often corn, to an animal’s diet.

An elk’s diet is made up mostly of grasses and other soft vegetation. When the bull suddenly overloaded on corn, its body produced too much lactic acid in an attempt to digest this new food, causing its death.

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

,

 

Oh thanks, you telling me when I am on and off track is a real honor... Did you miss this part of what I posted above about two years? Here it is (again), below in italics and underlined....

 

Detection of subclinical infection in deer orally exposed to urine and feces (1) suggests that a prolonged subclinical state can exist such that observation periods in excess of two years may be needed to detect CWD infection,

 

Did ya read the part that said two years? I suspect these findings were established  after the court hearing you posted. If they were not published after the court hearing, somebody wasn't keeping themselves updated, which I seriously doubt is the case. If you had the grasp you think you do, you would have never posted a court decision or proceeding to support your position in the first place...

 

You are quite the character. Doc worded this post as if he had a question. I answered the post under that context. He got my answer, your answer, and the answers of others. Don't go on with this crap telling me to tell the class and all that.

Doc asked the question and in your answer or statement you threw your cwd thoughts also so lets not think this this is a one sided thing and truth be known, from here on in any question about feeding deer will have cwd brought up in the conversation. That is untill its proven one way or the other in which so far it has not been!! 

Edited February 8, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails

[Hardcore]

First of all, I was unable to find any research that specifically evaluates the repercussions of baiting/feeding on NC deer herds. I certainly could have missed it, so if you have any credible sources of such information, a link would be appreciated.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure how accurate it is to compare such things between two states of completely different climates and disease profiles.

 

And third, your defense of baiting arguments are probably better done in a new separate thread rather than diverting this one.

I am also not aware of any literature regarding repercussions of baiting in NC. Obviously the lack of literature on the subject would more than likely mean that it doesn't seem to burden the herd. NC DNR has done a remarkable job in the last 15 yrs of improving the quality of the herd. This has been through educating the hunting populations and these populations buying into QDMA principles. The number of quality bucks in the past 10yrs has skyrocketed, although it's not attributed to feeding. CWD & EHD have been reported within the state, yet with all the congregation via supplemental feeding, it has not spread or decimated any populations.

 

I will completely agree that comparison of NC vs NY herds is like comparing Granny Smith to Macintosh apples...they are different sub species and very different climates. Again CWD & EHD have been reported and confirmed within the state so that should be comparing  red apples to  red apples regarding disease transmission related to communal feeding locations. There is no evidence of an increase of disease.

 

As far as defense of the supplemental feeding and diverting of the thread...the name of the thread is " Feeding Deer" and the discussion revolves around the supplemental feeding of game and the horrors it creates due to rumen acidosis. I simply reported my experience with the feeding of game as witnessed over 20+ yrs. As we all have our opinions,  if  rumen acidosis is valid...other than "extremely rare" cases then states that allow feeding would have gorged animals dying all over the place. There are a number of northern latitude and cold states that allow feeding and have healthy herd. You wont see me starting any Pro Feeding petitions or making bumper stickers, I will comply with the local game laws and just hunt, however being that it is legal in NC I took advantage of the law in an attempt to gain an advantage. If it became legal in NY I would gander that 85% of the detractors would gladly jump on the feed train in attempt to gain an advantage....so no attempt to divert or promote feeding.....just observations from past experiences.

[Doc]

 

I will completely agree that comparison of NC vs NY herds is like comparing Granny Smith to Macintosh apples...they are different sub species and very different climates. Again CWD & EHD have been reported and confirmed within the state so that should be comparing  red apples to  red apples regarding disease transmission related to communal feeding locations. There is no evidence of an increase of disease.

 

As far as defense of the supplemental feeding and diverting of the thread...the name of the thread is " Feeding Deer" and the discussion revolves around the supplemental feeding of game and the horrors it creates due to rumen acidosis. I simply reported my experience with the feeding of game as witnessed over 20+ yrs. As we all have our opinions,  if  rumen acidosis is valid...other than "extremely rare" cases then states that allow feeding would have gorged animals dying all over the place. There are a number of northern latitude and cold states that allow feeding and have healthy herd. You wont see me starting any Pro Feeding petitions or making bumper stickers, I will comply with the local game laws and just hunt, however being that it is legal in NC I took advantage of the law in an attempt to gain an advantage. If it became legal in NY I would gander that 85% of the detractors would gladly jump on the feed train in attempt to gain an advantage....so no attempt to divert or promote feeding.....just observations from past experiences.

And again, perhaps the reason "There is no evidence of an increase of disease" might very well be that the DNR has not performed any studies of the effects of single point feeding, or they simply have not reported it to the public.

 

If you want to argue the existence or impacts of rumen acidosis, the net is full of info on that subject or you can simply call the real experts on the subject, a DEC biologist. With your southern background, you may not be well versed on that situation. Here in NY because of the heavy contrasts of food resources due to the sharp and prolonged contrasts in weather, there is a distinct seasonal change in a deer's diet. I'm sure that the seasonal changes in rumen bacterial conditions is far more pronounced here than in places like NC where seasonal changes, and consequently food sources are not nearly as clearly defined.

 

And the reason that I mentioned the thread drift was because after the 2nd sentence of your 2nd paragraph, the entire content was a defense of baiting from an ethical standpoint. This topic is  not about whether baiting is "some magical feed pile that the deer just show up to and commit suicide". It is not about whether "deer will just come stand in it and wait for you to harvest". It is also not about whether or not "Killing a big buck on a corn pile is a rare event". In other words I do not want this thread to degenerate into a discussion of the ethics of baiting like I have seen so many others do. I know how easily that can happen. I am just asking for the courtesy of creating a separate thread to discuss that issue if you want to get into that aspect of baiting. It would probably be a popular discussion if past history is any indication.

 

 

[Doc]

Doc asked the question and in your answer or statement you threw your cwd thoughts also so lets not think this this is a one sided thing and truth be known, from here on in any question about feeding deer will have cwd brought up in the conversation. That is untill its proven one way or the other in which so far it has not been!! 

I will say that I have no personal knowledge of whether CWD is aggravated by single point feeding, but so long as the possibility logically exists, and the state biologists at the DEC appear to be convinced, I personally do not feel qualified to assume that they are wrong. So if they think that there is a connection between single point feeding and CWD, far be it for me to tell them they are wrong.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I will say that I have no personal knowledge of whether CWD is aggravated by single point feeding, but so long as the possibility logically exists, and the state biologists at the DEC appear to be convinced, I personally do not feel qualified to assume that they are wrong. So if they think that there is a connection between single point feeding and CWD, far be it for me to tell them they are wrong.

Fair answer but i have to ask if you are one of those guys that think...I read it on the internet, so it must be true?   If you dont thing these groups will tell the public what they want them to know to secure a personal agenda, I feel for ya. You have heard of the Govt right?

[Doc]

Fair answer but i have to ask if you are one of those guys that think...I read it on the internet, so it must be true?   If you dont thing these groups will tell the public what they want them to know to secure a personal agenda, I feel for ya. You have heard of the Govt right?

Basically, I rely on the DEC to supply technical biological information and regulations on these kinds of matters. I have no degrees in biology or wildlife management and it would be kind of arrogant or at the very least, pretentious to be thinking that I could do their job better than they can.

 

As far as personal agendas, I guess I can't begin to imagine what that would be when it comes to the deer feeding positions and regulations that they have put in place. So I guess without a motive, I have no reason to suspect that their policy is covered by some secret hidden agenda. I do understand that the DEC is a political entity that truly does report directly to whoever the reigning governor happens to be. But there still has to be some kind of motive for the department to push any notions that are not according to the best game management principles that are available to them.

 

That's not to say that I have never criticized them before, and some times in a quite vocal way. But at the end of the day I have to admit that I come with opinions and they come armed with facts. Game management is not my occupation and I have no formal training in that area.