Pistol permit holders with addresses......WTH?!

[philoshop]

Bubba, you're spot on with your assessment. A registry of gun owners who have formally chosen not to be on a registry of gun owners. Both registries are available to the public under FOI in the end if someone is willing to work hard enough for them, regardless of the piece of toilet paper that many of us have signed. Damned tight corner we're being chased into with this.

I honestly thought, as have many others, that there was more to this than basically another registry which is freely accessible.

My apologies if I have mislead anyone with my earlier posts.

 

OTOH, the NYS police maintain records of all pistol permits in the state. Even if your county clerk won't give them up, it'd be a stretch to think that the troopers won't, under the right/wrong pressure. This from a retired captain who has chosen to forget a lot about his tenure with that particular group. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, I'd really like to be.

[Mr VJP]

There's an old saying, that is about to prove very prophetic......

 

"Registration eventually leads to confiscation"

 

NY handgun owners may be the first to find out it's true.

[jrm]

All it takes is a FOI from the right attorney or government agency,and they have the list of who opted out. 

 

 

I won't state for a fact this is not the case, but I highly doubt it. It is now NYS law that you can sing up for an "opt out" list so you name is not released. If you can file a FOIL request to get the opt-out names, that not is not only a gaping loophole, it is also in direct contradiction to the law. By releasing your information, the state (or agency that release the info) would be wide open for a lawsuit.

If you filled out the form to have your name withheld, both local and state agencies are legally bound to withhold your name.  If they do not, they are in violation of the law.

[bubba]

ok do me a favor call your local county clerk and ask them.  I guarantee you the list of who opted out is available by a foil.  I already have been down this road and did my homework. If you want to put your faith in the guy who is trying to take away your guns with the same law feel free.  People in the know did not opt out.

Edited June 22, 2014 by bubba

[jrm]

ok do me a favor call your local county clerk and ask them.  I guarantee you the list of who opted out is available by a foil.  I already have been down this road and did my homework. If you want to put your faith in the guy who is trying to take away your guns with the same law feel free.  People in the know did not opt out.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I find the concept highly questionable. i will call my county and check it out, just to satisfy my curiosity.

 

By having "been down this road" are you claiming you filed a request and received a list of pistol license holders who opted out? If you are claiming you have personally done that and actually have that list, I won't bother contacting my county. I will take your word for it. I would also be amazed as - according to NYS law - that is blatantly illegal. You would be in possession of prime evidence for a civil (and possible criminal) action. Contact a lawyer, it might be a good payout.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with "faith" in any politician.They are all lying low-lifes in my book... Whether it is the "Democrat" traitor Cuomo and his ilk or the "Republican" traitor Skelos and his ilk. The fact is that the "opt out" thing was signed into law - it no longer matters who wrote it or signed it. It blows me away that they can blatantly violate a clear section of law. Are you suggesting that they wrote the law with no intention of following it? That wouldn't surprise me. What would surprise me is that someone hasn't yet obtained the list of "opt out" names and filed suit over it. It would be pretty big news.

 

Prior to the "opt out" rule, anyone could get that information. I don't see how being "in the know" changes anything. If you don't opt out, anyone can still get your name. If you do opt out, by law your information can not be released. If they are breaking the law by releasing it, there is no difference than before the law or by not opting out. All you lose is the few minutes of time it takes to fill out the form. 

[bubba]

No I asked questions before I filled it out.  My county clerk told the the list could be and expects it to be foiled at some point.  She also said she would refuse to release the information.  She told me herself all it does is give anyone who wants to try to get the information an updated list. This has been common knowledge sine just after the safe act was passed.  I mean think about it.  They are passing stricter gun control laws and are being nice and letting you opt out to protect you and your guns.  Yeah right.  It is a government form in a government office.  Take your chances if you want.  

[jrm]

No I asked questions before I filled it out.  My county clerk told the the list could be and expects it to be foiled at some point.  She also said she would refuse to release the information.  She told me herself all it does is give anyone who wants to try to get the information an updated list. This has been common knowledge sine just after the safe act was passed.  I mean think about it.  They are passing stricter gun control laws and are being nice and letting you opt out to protect you and your guns.  Yeah right.  It is a government form in a government office.  Take your chances if you want.  

 

 

Then I stand by my incredulity. Your (or any) county clerk doesn't necessarily know the right answer. May as well walk into a police station and ask them for details about the safe act. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they aren't.

 

So your clerk told you that a list of names that they are restricted by law from releasing can be released by a simple FOIL request. But that clerk also has the power to ignore a FOIL request that they are required to acknowledge.

 

All you can really do is prove my point. File the FOIL request and the clerk will deny it. The only question remaining will be whether it was denied because of the law prohibiting release or denied because the clerk is breaking the FOIL rules requiring release.

 

There is no question as to why the opt out was included in the safe act. It was a PR move. There was public outcry from people on both sides of the issue when that newspaper published people's information. The opt out was a red herring thrown in there so they could claim they were listening to and protecting "us." I agree 100% that it is BS. 

 

Government form in a government office? Of course - same as the pistol license form in the same office. They already have your name, fingerprints, personal information, list of handguns owned and probably DNA on file. What can be FOILed is already there for anyone to obtain and always has been. People have been obtaining and releasing this information for a long time.

 

Opting out has no downside. You are not giving anyone one iota of information they don't already have.

 

There is, however, an upside. If they release your name after an opt-out request, you have the possibility of taking legal action against the office that broke the law. I admit it is a slim possibility, but it is an infinitely better possibility than if you didn't opt out. Not opting out is essentially permission to release your information to anyone filing the request. Opting out at least gives you the ability to complain about it.

 

 

I am completely against the safe act. I support repeal of the entire thing - opt out included. That doesn't make opt-out a bad thing. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Protecting people's privacy is a good thing to me.

[bubba]

Good luck. They only have to enforce it. Almost all county clerks are saying the same thing.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[bubba]

This is the biggest problem with this entire fight people who assume and do no research and think all is fine. I am well connected with a lit of people from scope nyrpa and others. I try to inform others of what is going on and meet with argument s all the time. Good luck

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[jrm]

This is the biggest problem with this entire fight people who assume and do no research and think all is fine. I am well connected with a lit of people from scope nyrpa and others. I try to inform others of what is going on and meet with argument s all the time. Good luck

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

I am not trying to be argumentative. I want to understand what you are trying to say. I realize internet forums are full of snippy people who like to argue and provoke others. While I can sometimes see the fun in that, it is absolutely NOT what I am trying to do here.

 

Let's say you are right - you opt out and your name is on a list that can still be FOILed.

 

What's the difference between this and not opting out? Someone who is going to FOIL the handgun license list would also FOIL the opt out list. They still have all the names. At most, you cause them to file two requests instead of one.

 

Unless, as you state, the county clerk refuses to release the names on the opt-out list. If that's the case then the opt-out is working in that county. Look to me like a valid reason to opt out if you want your name withheld.

 

I don't see what your "research" is (aside from talking with your county clerks office, where they may or may not be providing factual information). I don't see what your "research" points to.

 

If you are 100% correct, then it would make sense to submit and opt out form because the clerk would refuse to release your information.

 

Again, the county and state already knows who you are and what handguns you own. Putting you name on a piece of paper asking to keep your personal information private does not give any more information than you have already given them.

 

So what is the "problem" and what is the "fight" on opt out? No one is saying anything is fine. No one is arguing to keep the safe act because it has an opt out provision. Of course, while the safe act is in force, the state and counties are required to abide by the opt out provision. You claim they are not (although you also claim they technically are, just for their own reasons rather than the law itself).

 

So what are the assumptions? What do your connected people claim is going on? Is the opt out provision some sort of hidden trap? I apologize if it appears I am arguing. I am merely going on the facts (not assumptions) - there is a law allowing for opt-out; the counties are obligated to follow that law; if they don't follow that law, it is cause for legal action.

 

Where are my assumptions? I honestly feel I am missing your point on this one.

[bubba]

Well let me tell you about my research.  I am a leader of a very large grass roots group that has been in the fight against this law since its inception.  I am a friend of the [president of scope as well as nypra.  I shoot with other members as well as I get many updates from the legislature as well.  My prompting to ask all county clerks comes directly form scope leaders who did research it. All of the leading groups in this fight recommended against filling out the opt out form.  Why because it can be foiled.  Common sense alone will tell you as it is part of the safe act, it has no good outcome for gun owners. They contacted county clerks all over the state to inform them and ask them if they would release it.  You are about a year behind in this fight.  I mean look back some say the state police keep the list  wrong  some say a lot of this thread alone that are wrong.  Thinking that the form is going to keep you safe, is a false sense of security.  But if you want to rely on it, feel free.  

[jrm]

Well let me tell you about my research.  I am a leader of a very large grass roots group that has been in the fight against this law since its inception.  I am a friend of the [president of scope as well as nypra.  I shoot with other members as well as I get many updates from the legislature as well.  My prompting to ask all county clerks comes directly form scope leaders who did research it. All of the leading groups in this fight recommended against filling out the opt out form.  Why because it can be foiled.  Common sense alone will tell you as it is part of the safe act, it has no good outcome for gun owners. They contacted county clerks all over the state to inform them and ask them if they would release it.  You are about a year behind in this fight.  I mean look back some say the state police keep the list  wrong  some say a lot of this thread alone that are wrong.  Thinking that the form is going to keep you safe, is a false sense of security.  But if you want to rely on it, feel free.  

 

 

If I read this correctly, your research consists of talking to SCOPE and NYPRA - whose research consists of contacting county clerks. And those county clerks told them what? That they would release the information based on a FOIL request? Or were they told what you were told - that the information would NOT be released because they would refuse the request?

 

Have any of these organizations actually filed a FOIL request and received the opt out list? Talking to someone on the phone is one thing. Actually filing the request and receiving the information is entirely different. File the request in a dozen or so counties and then it can be called legitimate research.

 

I still see no reason to recommend against filing the form. Nothing you have written provides ANY negative result from the opt out form.  It _might_ keep your name from being released. If it doesn't, it gives you cause to file action against the government and the safe act. 

 

If you don't fill out the form, your name is guaranteed to be released by a FOIL request. 

 

I would think this provides a great opportunity for SCOPE or NYPRA to file suit agains the state for violating its own law and another avenue to attack the safe act.

 

I never did the opt out thing because I really don't care one way or the other. However, your previous post already indicated that your county (along with an implication that most counties are on the same page) would refuse a FOIL request to release opt out names. So again, I don't understand the harm in filling out the form if that's what someone wants to do. It is better than nothing and at least gives you a _chance_ of having your name withheld. For someone who doesn't want their name released, there is absolutely no downside to filling out the form.

 

I think efforts are better spent on fighting the registration and prohibited items sections of the bill rather than the opt out provision. Still, with all these groups screaming about the gaping loophole of the opt out section, I am surprised that the issue hasn't received more (any) press or that lists of the opt out names haven't already surfaced.

 

Thank you for your response. I surrender, as I don't think I will ever "get it" when it comes to the immenent danger of the opt out provision. I wish you and your organization the best as we are certainly on the same side when it comes to the repeal of the safe act.

[Doc]

Well, I certainly do understand why people would rather not be named on some list of pistol owners, but Right now, at this time, I do see one useful purpose that this list could and should be put to. Astorino should be getting his hands on that list and setting up a very convincing mailing to all of those people explaining how their vote for him is absolutely essential. At least have that list perform some useful purpose. I wonder if that has occurred to him yet.

[Mr VJP]

If Astorino has to contact NY gun owners to get them to vote for him, NY gun owners are stupider than I thought.