traditional archery

[SteveB]

"Instinctive" has been redefined since the term was used to describe the class shooting with no sights. There are many ways to aim a bow without sights - gap, point of aim, split vision etc. Most will provide a far shorter learning curve to decent accuracy. And all have been used for 100's of years - Howard Hill shot split vision.

Also a large number of the recurves sold in the 50, 60 and 70's had flat shelves which meant some type of rest was meant to be used - and many/most did. Many of these same bows came with holes for mounting sights as well. All these these were in wide use before the compound and before archery was "traditional".

The term "traditional" came about as a way to describe non compound archery. It has since become a term that few can agree on what it means other than a non compound bow. Many want it to describe a period that never existed other than their own mind and seek to list equipment widely used before the compound as not trad.

Don't be limited by trying to fit a niche that is some individuals definition.

And unless you have perfect tune and form, it will be very difficult to shoot vanes off a shelf.

JMO - not a shot at anybody else.

[wildcat junkie]

Those judo points are interesting looking things. I like the idea of stump shooting for training. I will have to look into those.

I want to shoot off the shelf. As well. But was wondering about the vanes on the arrow. I want to be able to shoot aluminum with vanes and eventually a wood arrow with feathers. Can this be done off the shelf?

Use feathers on the aluminum shafts. Vanes are designed for mechanical rests.

 

What would be the preferance for vanes?

Edited December 20, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

"Instinctive" has been redefined since the term was used to describe the class shooting with no sights. There are many ways to aim a bow without sights - gap, point of aim, split vision etc. Most will provide a far shorter learning curve to decent accuracy. And all have been used for 100's of years - Howard Hill shot split vision.

Also a large number of the recurves sold in the 50, 60 and 70's had flat shelves which meant some type of rest was meant to be used - and many/most did. Many of these same bows came with holes for mounting sights as well. All these these were in wide use before the compound and before archery was "traditional".

The term "traditional" came about as a way to describe non compound archery. It has since become a term that few can agree on what it means other than a non compound bow. Many want it to describe a period that never existed other than their own mind and seek to list equipment widely used before the compound as not trad.

Don't be limited by trying to fit a niche that is some individuals definition.

And unless you have perfect tune and form, it will be very difficult to shoot vanes off a shelf.

JMO - not a shot at anybody else.

 

 

Very good point about the vanes.

 

I have tried gap & POA shooting. While it may work over known ranges, when it came to making shots at various angles/ranges, it wasn't  very practical for me. I tried sights in the early '70s with similar results

 

What you are calling split vision is what I would call instinctive. One is aware of the arrow in the periferal vision but is not "looking down the arrow" as many descibe instinctive shooting.

 

The stump shooting will give the mind's eye visionary reference over many episodes just like shooting baskets with a basketball. When you come to a Dandelion head or a large distinctive leaf on the forest floor, you don't stand there & calculate the distance in XXX feet or yards. Your mind imagines the arc of the arrow to the target just like it would imagine the arc of a basketball or football when shooting a basket/making a pass. The eye focuses on then target while the mind's eye visualizes the arc on the arrow from the periferal vision.

 

It takes a lot longer to master istinctive shooting, but it will pay off in the clutch. Start off by practicing at know yardages, stating at short distances. increase the distances as you learn. after you can shoot accurately at known distances over flat ground, then graduate to stump shooting.

 

Actual stumpsof the right size can make a good appoximation of a deer's chest. They are good targets to get you into picking a spot where there isn't one.

 

When I left S Indiana in the late '90s about 1/2 of the bow hunters had gone to traditional archery & instictive shooting.

 

Many compound shooters could pound arrows into a tight group at 20yds but when the pressure was on they would forget all about yardage estimation, sight pins, etc. They would just pull back  let the arrow fly under the pressure. many found that by learning true instinctive shooting they would increase their chandes for success.

 

As for those flat shelf bows from earlier days? It fairly easy to put a small peice of leather under the "rug" to make a small raised spot for the arrow shaft.

 

One very important word of cautuion for the OP. DO NOT start to "think" too much when making the shot. Just concentrate on the draw, ANCHOR, pause, release. Either over thinking the shot, or snap shooting as in releasing as soon as you reach your anchor can lead to taget panic. That can take years to overcome or even never be overcome.

Edited December 20, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

One more suggestion. Start with a bare bale at short distance, no target.

 

Just look at a spot & shoot concentrating of form. Don't be concerned where you are hitting at 1st. just concentrate on draw, ANCHOR, pause, release while looking at a spot on the bale.

 

 

Worrying about accuracy at 1st can set you back.

 

Don't practuce too long either.

 

30 shots once a day is better than 200 shots once a week.

Edited December 20, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[biggamefish]

As wildcat said work on your form first and the accuracy will come.  People tend to pick up bad habits when they go right for accuracy.   

 

  Here is a link for a book that will answer your questions as you go.  

 

http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=7015&gclid=CJSjq9X32cICFQ9gMgodi2UAUw

 

After you get your bow and supplies always feel free to ask questions here but as stated before tradgang

is all traditional and the people are good and super knowledable.

[Hunterny28]

thanks for the replies guys. I am Getting the Samick Sage bow this I know for sure. One of my friends dad has a few bows that I am going to pull back and shoot to get an idea of a ideal draw weight. I am not sure of the arrows yet as I have to do some more research. It will be something along the lines of an aluminium arrow with feather vanes. I do want to be able to make and shoot my own arrows someday. But I do not want to shoot those until I get better. I am excited and can't wait to start shooting!

I have checked out both trad gang and 3 rivers archery. In will be buying from them and joining trad gang. I like how there is a ny section and guys that I can shoot with eventually.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Hunterny28

[Hunterny28]

If you are shooting instictive (sights don't work all that well on traditional bows) you will also probably want to shoot "off the shelf". (It is quieter & less likely to cause an equipment related failure) Do not try to use spine charts that are geared towards mechanical rests & center shot configuartion.

 

As an example, a 2219 XX75 shaft is spec'ed by Easton as spined properly for a 60# recuve @ 28".

 

In reality, they are spined for traditional bows in the 75# range.

 

Black Widow bows have the sight window cut past center & thus need heavier shaft spine. It is not, as they claim, because their bows shoot harder. They are also hard to tune. I used to build out the window plate with leather to allow Black Widow bows to shoot less spine & be easier to tune.

 

For a 45-50# recuve at 28# draw, a 2016 aluminum shaft would probably be about right. Try shooting a  bare shaft into a clean piece of cardboard (not a lot of holes) on a bale butt from about 3 yds. Start with the shaft a few inched longer that minimum & trim back the length until yiu get the straightest penetration. What you are doing is catching the arrow just as should be recovering the 1st time from the "archer's paradox". If the knock end is tilted away from the bow, the spine is too stiff. If it is tilted towards the bow the arrow is flexing too much & need more spine.

 

You probably won't get a perfectly straight in penetration, but tuning for the best  results will make the arrow fly true W/O large fletching. Low profile 5" feathers should be plenty for a 45# bow, even with broadheads.. The more feather that you need for stable flight, the faster the velocity will bleed off.

 

After you have learned & arrow loss isn't as much concern, GOOD QUALITY, PRECISELY STRAIGHTENED & MATCHED cedar arrows will have advantages, especially when shooting off the shelf. They will be much quieter & will also be more forgiving when shooting with fingers than aluminum or carbon. We used to sell matched shafts to a guy in FL that shot competition & he was very competitive. He claimed they were more accurate shooting off the shelf with fingers than man made shaft material because of their forgivness to the variables of finger shooting..

 

If you want to really have fun get some Judo points & walk through the woods/fields shooting at SOFT tagets of opporunity. It's called "stump shooting", but often the targets are conspicuous leaves, ferns. Dandelion heads, etc.  Stumps are OK if they are rotten, but if they aren't, they are hard on arrows. this type of practice is the best practice for hunting. You can shoot downward from banks for tree stand practice. Judo points will all but eliminate arrow loss. The only time i have lost an arrow with a Judo point was when a sharply oblique angle on a hard target snapped the point off.

 

 

 

Here are the cedar Arrows I used to hunt with.

 

 

 

 

You're going to have a lot of fun!

 

nice looking arrow! 

[wildcat junkie]

nice looking arrow! 

We made about 350 doz finished cedar arrow a year ending in 1998.

 

They varied in price from $48 to about $84 a doz. Those would have been at the top of the price scale with the spliced cock feathers.

 

All of the arrows were heat tempered/straightended, wieght matched + or - 5 grains in 5# spine increments.

 

One feature we offered was a catalogued date & serial # 1 through 5. The serial number/date recorded the RSW (Raw Shaft Weight) spine, stain color, dip color, crest as well as fletch type & color. We used pre-cut 5" shield feathers on the $48 a doz utility arrows, custom burns on the higher grades. If you called 6 months, a year, etc,  later, we could build arrows that would not only match in color, fletch, etc, they would also shoot to the same POI as your previous arrows.

 

We sold ready made arrow to customers from France at the Denton Hill shoot & also had a repeat customer from Germany that placed his orders via telephone..

Edited December 22, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[SteveB]

Much better book from 3Rivers:

http://www.3riversarchery.com/Shooting+the+Stickbow:+A+Practical+Approach+to+Classical+Archery+2nd+Edition_i7832_baseitem.html

[wildcat junkie]

OP needs  to be careful reading books about making the shot itself as that can lead to too much thinking.

 

I learned at 14 & just did what came naturally, In those days, I could consistantly hit a cottontail through the shoulders at 10-15 yds in the dark.

 

How I learned to do that is an interestng story in itself.

 

 Books are great for learning about equipment, but can lead to too much thought when making the shot. In my 30s I read Howard Hill's "Hitting Them the Hard Way" & it lead to target panic,

Edited December 22, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[biggamefish]

Agreed I more so just suggested a book as a reference point.  

 

Neither book is better or worse.  Each of these books stated have same and different views.  

 

  Anybody that starts out in anything needs to have a good reference point to start from and figure out there own way to get to the point were they are comfortable.  

  There are so many variables tab, fingers, 3 under, 4 finger  split finger etc.  basically just giving ideas .

[wildcat junkie]

"3-under" can lead to looking down the shaft. It does somewhat reduce the chance of  pinching, but that can be eliminated with proper split finger form.

 

IMO one up, two down "split finger"  is the most versitile being adaptable to wing shooting as well as shooting up & down at steep angles.

 

Tab or glove is a personal thing. I started hunting with a "can't pinch" tab but one time I discovered  my tab on the ground after a was 12' up the tree & all settled in with my climbing stand. Gloves can be slipped off the tips of the ringers & still remained "attached" to the wrist when fumbling with gear.

 

Bare fingers work OK with very light weight bows, but a tab of glove gives a smoother release than soft, bare flesh when a hunting weight bow is being used.

 

Books will help emensely in teaching the proper set-up,tuning, gear selection, etc.

 

It might be to the OPs advantage to find someone with a defelction spine tester to select & fine tune the arrow spine.

 

One can be cobbled up in a few minutes if need be. This guy makes it look a whole lot harder tha it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkZ_6GYFb-A#t=28

 

Here is the web page that supports the video.

http://poorfolkbows.com/spine3.htm

[Hunterny28]

I seem to be more comfortable with the glove and using the split finger method. I will just have to work on my form. I do like the idea of reading some sort as a starting point. I have been lucky with online articles and this thread to point me in the right direction.

Wildcat junkie, you shoot often now days?

[wildcat junkie]

I seem to be more comfortable with the glove and using the split finger method. I will just have to work on my form. I do like the idea of reading some sort as a starting point. I have been lucky with online articles and this thread to point me in the right direction.

Wildcat junkie, you shoot often now days?

Once I started my traditional archery business, I became too busy to shoot much.

 

After moving here to the NZ of NY state, I closed down the business but I couldn't get fired up much about bowhunting since the best part of bow hunting here is about 1 week into the gun season.

 

Indiana's bow season starts on Oct. 1st, but I never saw much buck action until after Halloween.

 

If I lived in the SZ, I would probably be bowhunting a lot.

 

Before I started making arrows I shot nearly every day from spring until mid Novemeber. I even hunted squirrels with flu-flu arrows but was never succesful at harvesting a squirrel. I hit a couple though.

[wildcat junkie]

There used to be a nucleous of world class traditional archers at the Hawkeye Bowmen Archery Club just South of Alden, NY

 

http://hawkeyebowmen.com/

 

Their 3 day traditional shoot was out last show of the season. It was held around the middle of August.

 

The last time we attended, the dyed in the wool stick bow guys weren't running it anymore & it showed.

 

Strickly compound bow shooters can't usually set up a  traditonal course well. The shoots end up way too long & they don't incorporate the exreme up/down angles & shooting obstacle challenges that the traditional guys would set up. Croutching/canting the bow to shoot under foliage & such.

 

I used to shoot witha bunch of guys in Indiana. We would play H-O-R-S-E with bows, just like basketball. When one guy made a shot, the next guy had to put his foot on the same spot & make the shot. We would shoot under stuff, & sometimes cant the bow upside down. (horizontal with the arrow on the bottom)  I would keep some flu-flus in my hip quiver & make indirect fire shots, lobbing the arrow over an object to hit a mark that was out of the line of sight. I would use an aimpoint above the target. Since I was the only one with flu-flus, it made things hard on the next guy in line.