Too Many Yote's!!

[Mr VJP]

   http://www.outdoornews.com/August-2013/Effects-of-coyotes-on-deer-getting-new-look/

 

Interesting article.

 

This article proves the impact of coyotes on deer numbers is far from totally understood.

[HOUNDS77]

How is it that having no closed season on yotes can be considered unsuccessful?  Are we saying allowing the hunting of yotes year round increases their numbers, or nobody wanted to hunt them in the summer?

 

When the DEC put it on the table to open it all year, it was met head on by many groups. And I stood behind those groups!

[Curmudgeon]

This article proves the impact of coyotes on deer numbers is far from totally understood.

 

It also says they don't take adult deer. Their main impact is to fawns - which all get dropped in a short time, providing an excess of prey at a time when woodchucks and other medium sized prey are plentiful.

 

I'm all for more science. In 4 years we will know what new information they have.

 

[Mr VJP]

It also touches on the effects coyotes have on stressing the deer herd and if that is detrimental to all of them, including the adult deer.  I see this as an area many proponents of coyote protection do not discuss.

 

Hounds77, I'd like to know why you were opposed to year round coyote hunting.

 

[HOUNDS77]

http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2015/01/suny_esf_prof_coyotes_are_everywhere_in_nys_but_overall_impact_on_deer_is_minima.html#incart_river

 

Study that happened.

Edited February 4, 2015 by HOUNDS77

[Curmudgeon]

Stress on herbivores isn't bad. It is neutral. It changes behavior. Those changes can be good or bad. It depends on your point of view. Every change that effects habitat has winners and losers.

 

Consider the wolves in Yellowstone stressing the elk. They keep the elk out of the riparian areas. In some of those areas the willows are regenerating. Many species that needed those vegetated riparian areas are returning making for a healthier ecosystem.

[Curmudgeon]

http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2015/01/suny_esf_prof_coyotes_are_everywhere_in_nys_but_overall_impact_on_deer_is_minima.html#incart_river

 

Study that happened.

 

Good article!

[Mr VJP]

The article points out coyote populations do impact deer fawns and the number that survive.  It appears to say up to 20% of fawns are affected.  They also affect turkey reproduction.  It then goes on to call that "minimal".  Considering all the factors that are affecting fawn survival, all of the "minimal" factors add up.  DEC works to eliminate a lot of the factors.  Coyotes should remain on the list.

[Mr VJP]

Let's take a look at this from the other side.

 

I see nothing good that comes from coyote populations in any given area of NY State.

 

What would we lose in the wild if there were no coyotes in NY?

 

Edited February 4, 2015 by Mr VJP

[HOUNDS77]

Lets look at it like this. Why not lose the deer herd population?

[Mr VJP]

Come again?   I don't see the connection.

 

[Mr VJP]

Plenty of good things come to NY from having a good sized healthy deer population.  Can we say the same about coyote?

 

[genesee_mohican]

Let's take a look at this from the other side.

 

I see nothing good that comes from coyote populations in any given area of NY State.

 

What would we lose in the wild if there were no coyotes in NY?

 

 Here in my neck of the woods we have a very healthy deer population and healthy coyote population too. They co-exist just fine.  I for one enjoy hearing them howl at night, seeing them in the woods and having them show up on trail cam photos. Coyotes are here to stay and I for one am thankful. They are beautiful intelligent animals and they sure add to the wild outdoor experience.

[the blur]

^{Basic math, if you have 1000 yotes, and shoot 1, you now have 999.   If you happen to shot a female, That 999 is not going back up to 1000.   I just don't see their logic.}

[wooly]

What would we lose in the wild if there were no coyotes in NY?

 

I'm guessing we'd lose a lot of whitetail and small game habitats to over browsing, thus eventually losing our "preferred species" for an extended period of time until the environment could replenish itself.

Many place around my area are already seeing this to some extent.

Enter the coyote as natures natural form of balance to the equation and we can carry on with little to no concern outside of our part as hunters. Subtract the coyote from the equation and you'll end up facing overpopulation of herbivores that annihilate the landscape before moving on to greener pastures leaving a wasteland in their wake. Over populate with coyotes and the vegetation has a chance to restore itself to a level that supports food and cover once again to all the critters higher on our preferred list.

 

As hunters, we always think we can manage the wildlife to custom fit all our needs the best, in a way that we benefit from it most through increased harvests, bigger antlers, protection of age specific whitetails...blah, blah, blah...

Apparently we aren't as good at that as we believe or deer hunters have an irreversible case of tunnel vision

Must be since our brains are so much more advanced than some wild k-9's, we start to let our own greed and selfishness get in the way before fully understanding what is taking place, unlike some savage dog running on primal instinct that's been working for them since the beginning of their existence.

 

No deer hunter likes increased competition with another predator is what it all boils down to.

 

[Mr VJP]

When I hunted the Catskills 40 years ago, there were no coyote at all.  There were, however, larger herds of deer and even more turkey than I see these days.  And turkey were still on the comeback in those days.

 

I can't help but feel folks who want the coyote protected can't differentiate coyote from domestic dogs.  If someone really loves dogs, I can see them not wanting coyote populations eliminated because they have an emotional concern and attachment to canines.  The trouble is, they are not domestic dogs, though they may bear a resemblance to one.  They are wild dogs that would be put down in a heart beat if they were someone's pet and simply did what they naturally do.

 

[Mr VJP]

I'm guessing we'd lose a lot of whitetail and small game habitats to over browsing, thus eventually losing our "preferred species" for an extended period of time until the environment could replenish itself.

Many place around my area are already seeing this to some extent.

Enter the coyote as natures natural form of balance to the equation and we can carry on with little to no concern outside of our part as hunters. Subtract the coyote from the equation and you'll end up facing overpopulation of herbivores that annihilate the landscape before moving on to greener pastures leaving a wasteland in their wake. Over populate with coyotes and the vegetation has a chance to restore itself to a level that supports food and cover once again to all the critters higher on our preferred list.

 

As hunters, we always think we can manage the wildlife to custom fit all our needs the best, in a way that we benefit from it most through increased harvests, bigger antlers, protection of age specific whitetails...blah, blah, blah...

Apparently we aren't as good at that as we believe or deer hunters have an irreversible case of tunnel vision

Must be since our brains are so much more advanced than some wild k-9's, we start to let our own greed and selfishness get in the way before fully understanding what is taking place, unlike some savage dog running on primal instinct that's been working for them since the beginning of their existence.

 

No deer hunter likes increased competition with another predator is what it all boils down to.

 

Wooly, your post is actually in contrast to those who are preaching the mantra coyote have "minimal" effect on deer populations.  You seem to be saying coyote are better at controlling the size of a deer population than hunters are.  If that is true, wouldn't you say they have a pretty big impact on deer populations?

 

Since economically speaking, good deer populations are good for NY, isn't allowing coyotes to reduce the size of the herd negating the money being spent by NY state protecting deer herds?

 

 

[HOUNDS77]

^{Basic math, if you have 1000 yotes, and shoot 1, you now have 999.   If you happen to shot a female, That 999 is not going back up to 1000.   I just don't see their logic.}

 

Obviously you did not read the articles.

[Mr VJP]

Or he's just questioning their conclusions using logic.

 

[HOUNDS77]

Mr vjp...where did you see protecting coyotes? They are a furbearer and should remain that way. Why not consider deer a year round problem and have an open all summer season? Your logics really make no sense.

[wooly]

Wooly, your post is actually in contrast to those who are preaching the mantra coyote have "minimal" effect on deer populations.  You seem to be saying coyote are better at controlling the size of a deer population than hunters are.  If that is true, wouldn't you say they have a pretty big impact on deer populations?

 

Since economically speaking, good deer populations are good for NY, isn't allowing coyotes to reduce the size of the herd negating the money being spent by NY state protecting deer herds?

 

I don't care to get too involved with my beliefs on the topic, but I think that yotes fill in that delicate balance where hunters may be falling short in some areas.

I could really care less about the economics behind the reasoning of the state.

I just felt compelled to drop my opinion in here to be thought about without getting caught up in everyones debate.

I'm sure my opinions point is not new news to most of you here.

[Mr VJP]

Hounds77. I was referring to a year round season vs a limited one on coyote.  That is a management technique used to eliminate varmint.  Deer are not varmint and we are striving to increase their numbers in many areas because they add value to the wild, to the state and to the hunters, who in turn generate income for the economy.  Deer are a renewable resource.  Coyote are an expense.

 

I fail to understand how you don't think that is logical.

 

No problem Wooly.  I was just asking if you were aware of that.

 

Edited February 4, 2015 by Mr VJP

[HOUNDS77]

vjp..coyotes are furbearer according to NY...not varmint. 

[Mr VJP]

They are actually both.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Let's take a look at this from the other side.

 

I see nothing good that comes from coyote populations in any given area of NY State.

 

What would WE lose in the wild if there were no coyotes in NY?

 

This isn't the "other side". It's your side. All these arguments about the benefits of a large deer herd are another case of the tunnel vision mentioned earlier. It isn't always about us and game species.

 

What do other species gain? As Wooly mentioned, improved habitat, if not from having a huge impact on numbers of herbivores, they do affect their behavior (like the Yellowstone wolves).

 

What do coyotes eat besides the game you want to protect? They eat a lot of nest predators - red squirrels, chipmunks, possums, small raccoons. They eat many woodchucks. I heard a farmer complaining that the coyote hunters are responsible for the large number of woodchucks. That is as misinformed as blaming them for deer shortages but it makes a point. Coyotes will kill and eat sedentary Canada Geese - on and off the nest. They eat feral cats, and those little things some people think are dogs.