Aren't we all Americans?

[Caveman]

Not homophobic, just stating the facts on the law and equality.  Progressives can try to twist it any way they like, but they will be proven wrong in the end.

So you actually think that equality is for you to pursue your idea of happiness and for everyone else to pursue your version of happiness also?

[Mr VJP]

No I think we are a nation bound by the rule of law and so is everybody living in it.

[Caveman]

But didn't you say earlier that we're a nation bound by the Constitution?  A constitution which the right repeatedly disregards by denying certain citizens the rights which they themselves enjoy for no reason other than they don't agree with the person's life choices in the area's such as religion, and sexuality?

[Mr VJP]

I never said any of that second statement, because that is a misinterpretation of the conservative view of it.

[nyantler]

Last I knew the Constitution with the Bill of Rights was the rule of law...

[Caveman]

Last I knew the Constitution with the Bill of Rights was the rule of law...

So if we're bound by rule of law, and the constitution is rule of law, why do we deny people their civil liberties?

[nyantler]

we can't deny them their liberties... not without due process... so far, some have had their day in court and haven't faired so well. Hence the reason abortion is legal... the liberal court years ago before you were born decided that the life of an unborn child has no meaning and can be killed at the will of the mother if she sees fit.

[Caveman]

You know the ironic part about this thread? I started it to try and find some common ground and remind people with different political ideals that we have to work and live together.  And yet it still turned into a big divisive argument.  That's politics in today's world I suppose.

[nyantler]

work and live together why?? I'm not following my fellow man off a cliff just to show solidarity... when you're wrong you're wrong...

[Caveman]

You're absolutely right, let's all fight and piss and moan and nothing will ever happen in government.  The whole god damned thing can just fall apart.  That's probably for the best anyway.  The funny part is you accuse me of being wrong on this.  How can mutual stubbornness ever trump compromise? Answer me that please. 

[Mr VJP]

We are all Americans and we can all live and work together.  What we need to do that, is true equality. 

Be wary of affirmative action, special interests, waivers, misinterpretations of rights, entitlements and other inequities.  Any of those things pit one individual against the other and cause divisiveness. 

Politicians have been doing those things for decades to appease their base and buy votes.  I think the majority of America is finally starting to see and understand this.  Now that they see it has been happening, they feel betrayed and angry.  They feel they've been lied to, and they are correct.

[Caveman]

We are all Americans and we can all live and work together.  What we need to do that, is true equality. 

Be wary of affirmative action, special interests, waivers, misinterpretations of rights, entitlements and other inequities.  Any of those things pit one individual against the other and cause divisiveness. 

Politicians have been doing those things for decades to appease their base and buy votes.  I think the majority of America is finally starting to see and understand this.  Now that they see it has been happening, they feel betrayed and angry.  They feel they've been lied to, and they are correct.

But would you agree what went on in these forums is not the answer in congress? People need to start working together and listening to one another.  I think all of us here spent a lot of time trying to shout over each other and no one really listened, myself included.  We need to remember that our government was not meant to be a competitive team sport, though it has certainly turned out to be. 

[nyantler]

The lying is bad enough.. but the blatant misuse of our money with the audacity to come back and ask for more money to misuse again is where I have drawn the line... I own my own business.. I have to pay $1400 to get health insurance while politicians get free health insurance on my dime... I don't have an expense account paid for by anyone else but myself yet I fit the bill for a politician to travel around the world at no cost to them. I work nearly 300 days a year while the politician is on the job for about 180 and he/she makes twice as much money as me. I simply want my trash picked up and my road plowed but it costs me $6000 dollars a year in property taxes to get it done. When I dial my phone I get taxed, when I buy a new set of tires NY takes a tax, I am taxed on my utilities, my income, and the registration to drive my truck. I pay a tax to have water, and sewer hookup... then i am taxed so that my kids can attend school... I save for retirement only to have wall street set me back 10 years while politicians get a nice fat pension on my dime.

Ok I better stop I'm gonna throw up

[Caveman]

The lying is bad enough.. but the blatant misuse of our money with the audacity to come back and ask for more money to misuse again is where I have drawn the line... I own my own business.. I have to pay $1400 to get health insurance while politicians get free health insurance on my dime... I don't have an expense account paid for by anyone else but myself yet I fit the bill for a politician to travel around the world at no cost to them. I work nearly 300 days a year while the politician is on the job for about 180 and he/she makes twice as much money as me. I simply want my trash picked up and my road plowed but it costs me $6000 dollars a year in property taxes to get it done. When I dial my phone I get taxed, when I buy a new set of tires NY takes a tax, I am taxed on my utilities, my income, and the registration to drive my truck. I pay a tax to have water, and sewer hookup... then i am taxed so that my kids can attend school... I save for retirement only to have wall street set me back 10 years while politicians get a nice fat pension on my dime.

Ok I better stop I'm gonna throw up

Well then you and I aren't that different.  I noticed in a few posts you accused me of being a liberal, but I think you've mistaken my political identity.  I'm not a liberal fiscally, and most libertarians aren't.  Not to mention one core belief of the libertarian party is for government to play as small a role in the lives of the people as possible. Conservatives and libertarians have a lot in common, just not on the civil liberties front.

[Dave]

I was sitting on the sidelines for this one but after reading nyantler I have to but my 2 cents in the fray. I feel  exactly as you. My school tax just went us $1600 for the year for a total tax of $8000 for the year. And that's just school tax. But I don't even have kids in school anymore. And my house up state has $4000 in taxes when does it end. Will we just give up and give our property to the Government because we can't afford the taxes any more. Guess what ,the tax payers are broke too and can't afford to pay all the pensions and medical for teachers and public employees who don't even contribute to their medical. State retirees don't pay state tax but we do and also pay for all their benefits.

Dave

[Mr VJP]

The problem with congress today, as well as most elected offices, is lack of integrity.  Politicians are no longer concerned with what is good for the country.  They are only concerned with what is good for them personally, their party and their agenda.  They have become corrupt and the bickering you see is not over what will benefit America.  It is over what will benefit them personally.

The blame for this lies squarely on the electorate.  They are not involved or informed and easily bought with political favors.  They keep voting for the same corrupt officials and perpetuate the problem.  Many of them also benefit personally by re-electing corrupt officials. 

A country gets the type of government it deserves.  The only way to correct this situation is to educate and motivate the electorate.  That means grass roots power and political muscle.  And that is why I appreciate the NRA and the Tea Party.  Both organizations are representing the people in opposition to a bloated, oppressive and unethical government behemoth.

[nyantler]

exactly... it sickens me how apathetic americans can be.

[Dave]

There is a new political policy and it's jumping on the sword. The Democrats didn't care what would happen the them as long as they passed health care. That tactic worked just like a sucicide bomber. The American public didn't want it but the dems shoved it through the house and senate. Now they want everyone to work together what a joke.

Dave

[Caveman]

Dave, it's funny that you put the entire blame for a broken system on one party.  Both are guilty of the same thing.  Before you you point a finger make sure the Republican hands are clean. 

[Dave]

Dave, it's funny that you put the entire blame for a broken system on one party.  Both are guilty of the same thing.  Before you you point a finger make sure the Republican hands are clean.

I am not saying that the Republicans are any better. Let me make that clear. I am not affiliated with either party. But it is the Democrats that pushed that health care bill, that no one wanted. As far as I am concerned the Republicans are in till they screw it up which is highly likely. This whole system is broken and needs a complete overhaul. But I don't see how it can be accomplished.

Dave

[Caveman]

I agree that the entire system is broken. However, I would disagree that "no one" wanted the health care bill.  People have the misconception that the idea is free health care for all and that's simply not the case.  Granted, I didn't find time to read the entire 1100 page proposal but it has benefited me already.  See I'm about to graduate college and there's currently no jobs for my generation.  The reform allows me to be covered under my parents health insurance until I'm 26.  I would not argue that is a bad thing.  The problem here is that almost no one has the time to read the bill and even if we did not many of us could understand the legal-style writing anyway.  The info anyone had about it was through the media.  You won't find a media source that's not biased one way or the other.  I don't think anyone here really knows what the bill was about in its entirety, myself included.  I'm not sure how anyone can form an opinion on an issue without informing themselves of both sides.  And in my opinion no one should trust the media.     

[Mr VJP]

You forget that we were informed by our elected officials they didn't read it or know what was in it either.  Nancy Pelosi stupidly said they would have to pass it for us to know what was in it.

One thing we did know is that it was going to cost taxpayers a huge amount and that was not good for the future of the expanding deficit.  And we also knew it amounted to government take over of America's health care system.  Once again, bigger government.

Plus it forces people to buy health insurance, which in my opinion, is unconstitutional.

[Dave]

I agree that the entire system is broken. However, I would disagree that "no one" wanted the health care bill.  People have the misconception that the idea is free health care for all and that's simply not the case.  Granted, I didn't find time to read the entire 1100 page proposal but it has benefited me already.  See I'm about to graduate college and there's currently no jobs for my generation.  The reform allows me to be covered under my parents health insurance until I'm 26.  I would not argue that is a bad thing.  The problem here is that almost no one has the time to read the bill and even if we did not many of us could understand the legal-style writing anyway.  The info anyone had about it was through the media.  You won't find a media source that's not biased one way or the other.  I don't think anyone here really knows what the bill was about in its entirety, myself included.  I'm not sure how anyone can form an opinion on an issue without informing themselves of both sides.  And in my opinion no one should trust the media.   

You must admit that the former speaker (NANCY, said we must pass it so we can find out what's in it) There should be a law that congressman and women can't vote on anything they haven't read. There should be a sign off document they must sign to verify they are knowlegable  of what they are signing. I agree we can't trust media or politicians.

Dave

[Caveman]

You forget that we were informed by our elected officials they didn't read it or know what was in it either.  Nancy Pelosi stupidly said they would have to pass it for us to know what was in it.

One thing we did know is that it was going to cost taxpayers a huge amount and that was not good for the future of the expanding deficit.  And we also knew it amounted to government take over of America's health care system.  Once again, bigger government.

Plus it forces people to buy health insurance, which in my opinion, is unconstitutional.

I'll agree with most of what you said but on a highly selfish note.  I like what it's done for me in the short run.  I guess we'll see how it pans out in the long run.

Just to make a joke at the originalists' expense though, nowhere in the constitution does it say, "Congress shall make no law requiring the citizen to buy health insurance." 

[Dave]

You forget that we were informed by our elected officials they didn't read it or know what was in it either.  Nancy Pelosi stupidly said they would have to pass it for us to know what was in it.

One thing we did know is that it was going to cost taxpayers a huge amount and that was not good for the future of the expanding deficit.  And we also knew it amounted to government take over of America's health care system.  Once again, bigger government.

Plus it forces people to buy health insurance, which in my opinion, is unconstitutional.

VJP, we must be on the same wave link. I was writing about Nancy and when I post it you beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike.

Dave