The perfect whitetail round

[Lawdwaz]

Back in about 1997 I killed a 4 pointer in PA with the 375 H&H.  No problems. (I do think the bullet is still going though )

Why'd I do it, cause I could!

[Lawdwaz]

And.......If Ontario County ever goes rifle, I have friend who has a SxS 470 NE that I'd use to toast a doe in the pines with those slick open sights.  I don't think he has the grapes anymore to do it himself!  IIRC the ammo is $200 a box??

I don't think he'd let me take it over to Wyoming County and I wouldn't really want to. 

[Pygmy]

That would be pretty cool, Larry....

You'd have to get yourself one of those safari jackets and a BWANA hat to wear while you're posing with the double rifle and your trophy whitetail... ;D ... Maybe you could get an African American friend to pose beside you in a loincloth, holding a spear.

I'd have to pass on that, myself...I can no longer see the express style sights, and I'm too much of a wuss to shoot a .470 Nitro.... ??? .....

[cboy18]

my 20 gauge ithaca semi. works pretty darn fine! or should i say 2 3/4 inch Federal rifled slug.

[eagle rider]

The more I read the replies, the more I believe the 30-06 is the one size fits all.  Just be careful with the lighter bullets in 30 cal.  You might get seome fragmentation even on deer.  150 gr is as low as I go and to tell you the truth, what I use in my 700, the others are 165 gr.  The semi-auto is also prefers the 150's.

[moosemike]

I actually get better penetration during tests from the 125 grain Nosler BT than I do from the 150 grain Core-Lokt.

[eagle rider]

do you know the SD of the 125 gr bullet?

[Pygmy]

At one time, any .308 bullet of less than 150 grains was designed for varmints. Any 130,125 or 110 grain .30 cal bullets were made with fragile jackets and were not good choices for deer bullets.

However, things may have changed. Not being a .30 cal. shooter, I have not kept up with the latest bullet designs. I'm sure that monolithic bullets like Barnes X would be viable deer bullets in the lighter weights.

As far as Nosler ballistic tips are concerned, Nosler has toughened up the jackets on some of it's BTs, because of complaints about the early ones being too fragile. I know the 7mm 120 grain has a beefed up jacket and an excellent reputation as deer bullet, and perhaps they have done the same with the 125 .308. Nosler usually designates them as either varmint or big game bullets when they sell them.  Moosie, do they advertise the .308 BT as a big game bullet ?

[moosemike]

do you know the SD of the 125 gr bullet?

Yes, I'm fully aware of the SD of the bullet. I've also killed deer with roundballs fired from muzzleloaders which have a worse SD. The 125 Nosler outpenetrates the 150 Core-Lokt in my tests and I've killed deer cleanly with the 150 CL. It just isn't that hard to get adequate penetration to kill a deer.

[moosemike]

At one time, any .308 bullet of less than 150 grains was designed for varmints. Any 130,125 or 110 grain .30 cal bullets were made with fragile jackets and were not good choices for deer bullets.

However, things may have changed. Not being a .30 cal. shooter, I have not kept up with the latest bullet designs. I'm sure that monolithic bullets like Barnes X would be viable deer bullets in the lighter weights.

As far as Nosler ballistic tips are concerned, Nosler has toughened up the jackets on some of it's BTs, because of complaints about the early ones being too fragile. I know the 7mm 120 grain has a beefed up jacket and an excellent reputation as deer bullet, and perhaps they have done the same with the 125 .308. Nosler usually designates them as either varmint or big game bullets when they sell them.  Moosie, do they advertise the .308 BT as a big game bullet ?

Yes. On the Nosler 125 grain BT box it reads; for deer and antelope.

[Pygmy]

Hopefully you can field test them on a deer or three this year and give us a report..I suspect that with the velocity you'll be getting it will drop deer like lightning.. I also  suspect it may be a little rough on the EATIN' meat, but if you shoot 'em in the ribs, it don't much matter.

[eagle rider]

Guys, its a balance and for that matter a .243 is deemed good for deer and anetlope as well.  The 30 cal 130gr Barnes TSX has a SD of .196 and a BC of .340, the Nosler Ballistic Tip 150 gr has a SD of .226 and a BC of .435.  That is a huge swing and frankly these low level SD and BC would scare me away from using those bullets in a deer rifle.  The bullets just won't hold up long enough to penetrate causing the sever shock we need.  Remeber velocity will never kill a deer, kinetic energy does.  Kinetic is the combination of speed and mass.  Its a balance issue.  All the speed in the world aint gonna do it, you need mass to deliver the energy. 

I had a problem last year with a lightweight 130gr speed demon in a 270 Win using a Hornady SST.  I nailed a big meat doe at 100 yards right in the pump station!  She reared up did a face plant, then proceeded to rise like Lasirus and take off.  We tracked shot glass size puddles of blood for 1/2 mile then it just stopped.  I mean bright red blood.  We spent the next morning looking for her, no deer.  That night another guy from the club walking down an intersetcting trail found the deer.  It was wasted, but we opened her up to see what happened.  I was horrified.  That little speed demon went in about three inches made a sharp right turn and went through the bottom of the lung through the diaphram and shattered the liver.  A hunk of torn lung tissue plugged the entry wound.  There was no exit wound and the bullet was in pieces between the liver and diaphram.  I called Hornady and gave them my loading formula.  The guy I spoke to said, "should of used a heavier weight bullet, you would've gotten better penetration and kept all of the bullets efforts in the deers lungs." 

Morale of the story, it ain't only speed, gotta carry the mail too.  That takes mass.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

[Pygmy]

What kills game is causing enough damage to stop vital organs or the CNS.

If you disable the heart, lungs, liver, a major blood vessel or damage the spine or brain, the critter is going to die, usually within a matter of seconds. The stories that you hear of deer that are heart shot or double lung shot and run hundreds of yards are pure BS.

Fluke occurences such as the one you describe can happen with any bullet. Sometimes projectiles change directions inside an animal's body and go off at odd angles. I have seen it happen with 400 grain shotgun slugs.

In general bullets  of 100 grains or more that are constructed stoutly enough for deer sized game will give sufficient penetration to cleanly kill whitetails with decent shot placement. There are hundreds of thousands ( if not millions) of dead deer that were taken with such time tested combos as the .243, .257 Roberts, .250 savage and 25-06 all with 100 grain bullets, as well as the .270 with 130 grain bullets to attest to that fact. 

[eagle rider]

unboubtidly, but in the world of physics, its harder to for someting with more mass at lower velocity to change direction.  A volkswagon going 100 mph will hit a brick wall and fly apart into different directions no matter how stoutly it maybe constructed.  A freight train going 40 miles an hour won't.  The same logic applies to bullets, that's why SD's are such an important consideration in bullet selection.  The equivalent logic would indicate that one can hunt deer with a 30-06 accelerator round, but is it the wise choice????? 

[Pygmy]

I agree that the 30-06 accellerator would be a poor choice. However  the biggest reason it is a poor choice is because it uses a lightly constructed bullet designed to explode on critters the size of woodchucks..

I'm not  trying to say that SD is not important.  I'm just saying that bullet construction is more important,  within a certain range of bullet weight and velocity.  From my experience and the experience of many other hunters, I believe a properly constructed bullet of 100 grains or more at a reasonable velocity WILL give ample energy and penetration to cleanly kill a whitetail at any decent shot angle.

Moosemike's example of the roundball is a good one. Roundballs have a lousy SD, but my hunting partners and I have made many clean kills with .45 cal and .50 cal. roundballs.  As far as I can see, with similar shot placement, they penetrate well and kill as well as most anything else.

[Pygmy]

Hey Eagle..I just realized that this discussion is beginning to sound like the old Jack O'Connor vs. Elmer Keith contorversy, with  Keith expounding the virtues of heavy bullets at moderate velocity and O'Connor touting lighter bullets at high velocity.... ;D .....

Old Elmer didn't think much of the .270 and didn't consider it adequate for deer. he did admit that it was a good EAGLE rifle ( no offense intended, hehehe)... ??? ... Back in those days many western states had bounties on eagles due to thier depredation on lambs and  young game animals. He considered a .333 OKH with 250 grain bullets a sensible minimum for elk.

The .270 was O'Connor's darling, and he was probably more responsible than any other individual for it's rise in popularity. In one article I read he said that of the 18 elk that he had shot at that date, 13 of them were shot with the .270 and 130 grain bullets.

They were at opposite ends of the spectrum, but both were legendary hunters and both killed thier share of game.

I suspect the most sensible position is somewhere in between... ...

[moosemike]

Theres no better deer gun than a .270 loaded with ANY 130 grain bullet.

FWIW I'm not running my 125's at full throttle but at 2,900 fps. You can kill a deer cleanly with a .22-250 and 55 grain soft points so if Accelerators were accurate in a .30-06 I'm sure they'd kill a deer as well. I know a guy who loads 110 hp's in his .30-06 and kills deer with aplomb. I know another guy who gets his deer every year with a .243 and 75 grain varmint loads. Says he never has had to track a deer.

[Lawdwaz]

And if Keith had today's bullets to shoot back then he'd certainly be singing a different tune and the old "dudes" like Pygmy (with ALL due respect) would have had NOTHING to read!!

[Lawdwaz]

Theres no better deer gun than a .270 loaded with ANY 130 grain bullet.

FWIW I'm not running my 125's at full throttle but at 2,900 fps. You can kill a deer cleanly with a .22-250 and 55 grain soft points so if Accelerators were accurate in a .30-06 I'm sure they'd kill a deer as well. I know a guy who loads 110 hp's in his .30-06 and kills deer with aplomb. I know another guy who gets his deer every year with a .243 and 75 grain varmint loads. Says he never has had to track a deer.

A good bullet and placement are ALL that matter.  Headstamps really mean very little.

[eagle rider]

LOL, shot placement is the key of course but all things being equal,.... it will come down to confidence.  Ted Nugent, the Back Strap Asassin, shoot Ferral Hogs on his ranch with a 243.  Big boars, 250-300 pounders.  He head shoots them.  In South Carolina, pigs are culled with 22-250's through the ear or the eye.  The logic being you need to get one of those litle poison pills buzzing around the pigs brain box.  I know the O'Connor and Keith arguments well.  Yes, Jack was the champion of the 270 Win.  Yet when he went to Africa, he took a 350 Rem Mag and only shot 250 gr. bullets.  He was perplexed between that and a 36 Whelen, but chose the 350 in the end.  I think in the case od ol Jack he knew he would be hunting Leopard and was seeking a big wound channel.  The same logic can and for some does apply to deer as well.  Would a hunter feel equally as confident in using a 243 with a 75 grain bullet on a black bear hunt????

[Pygmy]

I don't intend to try to make a point using EXTREME examples, so I am telling this story just for the  sake of conversation.

When I was hunting caribou at Little Marten Lake in NWT in '94, I had an Inuit guide named George Konana.  George was full blood Inuit and still basically made his living hunting and fishing. He was proud that he WORKED for a living, unlike most residents of his Arctic Village, who lived on the government dole.

George had a camcorder, and on that camcorder, he showed me a tape of his 9 year old son shooting an 11 foot polar bear with a .222.  Dropped him like a rock with a single shot right behind the ear. He felt that the .222 was a sensible polar bear rifle, and for him, I guess it was.

There we go with shot placement again.

George carried a .300 Win mag when he guided me, which he said belonged to his father. I  asked him if he used that rifle for polar bear.

He told me..." Nope...Ruins too much meat".

[Lawdwaz]

The 223 has quite a following in many places, notably Alaska. 

I'd enjoy seeing that video!  Bang, flop.

[Pygmy]

George offered to sell me a copy of the video. I told him I wanted one and left him my name and address, but he never sent it.

There were two bears in the video, and they both looked exhausted and at bay, as if they had been run a long way with dogs or snow machines, which they probably had been. What we consider sporting methods aren't important to the Inuit. They are just collecting meat. It's like thier version of going to the supermarket. An example..Why waste expensive centerfire ammo shooting caribou on the open tundra when it is much more cost effective ( and practical in thier minds) to motor up beside swimming animals on a lake and shoot them in the head with a .22  ?  It's a whole different mindset.

[eagle rider]

me too,.... The Boers used to hunt elephant in Bushveldt with 7x57 Mauser.  They would drive the herds towards "shooters' who would try to fire a solid into the base of the truck below the eyebrow ridge of the elephants.  The idea being that the impact of their little 148 gr. solids would fracture the elephants skulls sending shards of bone through the elephants brain.  It was said that many Boers lost their lives doing this. 

The Polar Bear is the ultimate NA Predator, I wouldn't use a 222, would you?...  In fact the Federal Website doesn't even recommend anything less than 338 Win Mag for polar bear.  Fast forwarding my Africa example, many countries set limits for allowable cartridges.  For instance in Tanzania dangerous game cannot be hunted with anything less than 375 H&H Mag.  I have no doubt that a lion can be handled with a 30-06 or better yet a 35 Whelen, or 338-06, or 300 to 338 Win Mag with the right bullet and a properly placed shot.  But the regulation exists and I have recently read that it was made a law by pressures coming from the PH's outfitters running Safari's in that region.  The reason being is they are looking to minimize risking the lives of their clinets and themselves by ensuring the right tool is used for the right job. 

PJ Turijillo, the famous NM Elk Guide, I'm told by two of his clients, doesn't allow anything lower than 300 Win, Wby or WSM Mag on his elk hunts with 180 gr. partition bullets.  Reason being he hunts above 8,500 ft in the Taos Mtns.  Altitude does weird things to peoples ability to keep oxygen getting into their brain (thinner air).  He prefers clients using more of a light-hevy weight approach to anchoring the elk he hunts.  He's legendary and has, I'm told, never lost an elk yet.

Not every shot opportunity one gets is perfect and broadside, honestly how many raking or quartering shots have you taken on deer.....  I have taken many and dropped most instantly.  Then again, in my earlier example I took one perfect broadside shot with a lightweight bullet out of a 270 and had a horrible outcome because the weak link in that chain was the bullet itself.  So I choose to reduce the risk of a poor outcome by taking the edge of SD in my favor.

Hey but that's why their's 31 flavors at Bakin & Robbins Ice Cream.  We all can't like the same thing. 

[moosemike]

Jack O' used the .270 extensively in Africa. As for the .243 just use a 100 grain soft point and you'll kill that bear too.